Topic: Best idea ever to promote line ship use

[Lepton]

Since no one responded in other thread, I thought I best create my own thread.

My proposal gives line ships a strategic role to play and sets up a system wherein line ship use is not only encouraged but desirable within a strategic and PvP context.  Line ships to be exempt from the disengagement rule and by extension of course the hex ban when in mission with any human piloting a non-line ship.  Line ships subject to disengagement rule/hex ban when opposing players are all in line ships.  Non-line ship always subject to disengagement rule and hex ban.

This means line ships can be a strategic assest to flip hexes and a venue for meaningful PvP battles.  It also introduces a whole new strategic fold.  Consider scenarios wherein line ships encounter heavy metal and the possibilities that opens up for the line ship players.  Consider what happens when line and non-line ships wing together and encounter either line or non-line ships.  It alters the whole dynamic of how we might do things on the dyna and encourages people to utilize dfferent types of ships for strategic and PvP purposes.

[762_XC]

What about mixed fleets containing line ships?

[Lepton]

It's very simple.  The rule is evaluated from the individual ship's POV.  Example: A: 1 line vs B: 1 line and 1 non-line.  A is not subject to disengagement rule and hex ban as he is faced by a non-line ship.  The exemption for line ships always takes precedence as otherwise it would not be much of an exemption.  B line ship is subject to disengagement and hex ban as he is faced by a line ship and any non-line is always subject to disengagement rule/hex ban.  The beauty of this is that A could stick around and try to destroy or injure one of the ships at little threat to itself because if A is eventually run off or destroyed he can come right back into that same hex.  To force A out of the hex, the opposing side would have to raise a line ship force to push A out of the hex.

[FPF-DieHard]

this is cool to, but I wouldn't count COMMAND ships as Line for this purpose.

NCA fights are cool 

[762_XC]

I would say fleeting with anything should void the exemption.

I would also say if you are forced out by another solo line ship (not metal), the penalty stil applies.

The end result of this will be lots of 1v1's in line ships.

Command ships should count as line. CCH's and NCC's can all compete on more or less even ground.

[KBF MalaK]

So how does this address PVP points ?? If 1 line and 1 spec ship face 2 line ships- they pay if they disengage with a time limit ban out of the hex. But truthfully I'd rather take my chances with a specialty ship wing (especially if it's heavy metal).

Where's the incentive NOT to disengage if your in a line ship and overmatched by a spec ship ??

[Lepton]

The incentive not to disengage is:

1.  You'd prefer not to give up the DV shift
2.  If you die, it is no big deal as line ships are relatively cheap and you are not banned from that hex if you do die.  It allows the PvPer in the line ship to be alot more free as the consequences are not as great for him as for the non-line ship.

[Lepton]

I would say fleeting with anything should void the exemption.

I would also say if you are forced out by another solo line ship (not metal), the penalty stil applies.

The end result of this will be lots of 1v1's in line ships.

Command ships should count as line. CCH's and NCC's can all compete on more or less even ground.

This defeats the entire strategic use of line ships and does not encourage fleets of line ships to engage fleets of line ships which is part of the reason for having the rule in the first place in my opinion.  With line ships having the exemption as I have laid it out, it creates a situation in which pilots of the opposing side will have to fly line ships to bump line ships out of the hex.  The rules are designed to give line ships a bit of an advantage so that people would like to fly them and creates a mechanism which will require other folks to fly line ships to deal with them effectively.  I don't think we want alot of 1v1s in line ships.  We would like them to be a viable alternative.  I think these rules make that more possible.

And before anyone cries foul, we already have a system that forces people into a particular set of ships, that being the use of heavy metal.  When the opposition brings on the metal, one is nearly obliged to do the same.  What I propose is a gentler requirement that will actually add a level of strategic complexity to a server as well as provide vets and newbies an unique flying opportunity.  Just as now one must run to get the metal, one will have to run to get the line ships to combat the line ships effectively.

[Green]

Just need to define line ship for each race (not all line ships are equal).

[Lepton]

I'd like to leave that up to those who would know better than I on how to define a line ship.  My first inclination would be a standard class ship up to a CA or NCA.  Some would like to include CCs and CCHs.  I don't have a problem with that.  The idea is to give an incentive to fly these ships by giving them a special ability and an unique strategic role and a mechanism that encourages others to fly them as well.

[FPF-DieHard]

The existance of the ISC kinda screws this up to, maybe it would work for another GWish server

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Command ships are specialty ships, they should be treated as such.  Just because one player prefers an command variant to a carier or droner doesn't mean they deserve any preferential treatment.  It just means they are only willing to suck it up as far as others are doing the sucking.  Kzin line ships are totally atrocious so I'm looking for an advantage here.

[Lepton]

Chutt, can you tell me what you would consider a kzin line ship?  I am not familiar with their ships to any degree.

DH, I would agree with that except if there is a bpv limit enforced in the line ship specification which I would suggest is a good idea.

[Hexx]

Given that command ships in (some) lines numbered about every third ship (depending on squadron setup) I hardly think they
can be considered "specialty" in teh same way that droners/maulers (assigned for specific missions) or carriers (assigned escort and groups)
or fast cruisers (built in extremely limited numbers and usually assigned independent missions) could be.

Yeah I'd rather fly a CWLP than a CWP
Command ships also unarguably balance up better across 20+ years and 7 races than the "lines"

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Chutt, can you tell me what you would consider a kzin line ship?  I am not familiar with their ships to any degree.

DH, I would agree with that except if there is a bpv limit enforced in the line ship specification which I would suggest is a good idea.

Lines ships would be the Z-CL, Z-CS, Z-CA, Z-DD, Z-FF, Z-FFK, Z-FH, Z-POL Z-DN Z-DW, Z-CM, Z-HDW1, Z-HDW2, Z-HDW3, Z-NCA, Z-BC, Z-BCH, Z-DNW, Z-DNM, Z-DNL   and all their "+", "R" and mirv refits/variants.  Casual carriers and casual PF tenders would not be line in my opinion.  The only one I think that I'm uncertain about here is the DNL, which could be considered a light dreadnaught like a Z-CL is a light cruiser, but which could also be considered a "fast dreadnaught"  I could live with its classification as either and i put as a "fast dreadnaught" then it is no longer line.

Of all those ships the only ones i generally fly to any significant degree are Z-DD, and the Z-DNL.  The HDW1 is also very good but I generally fly the HDWC1 instead for the extra 2 fighters.

[762_XC]

So you're saying that Z-HDW1 (a bona fide 6-rack droner which can hold a lvl 4 (!!!) trac at speed 31) is a line ship, and Z-CC is not?

Pass me some of that nip please. 

Regarding command ships being line, by the end of the GW, CCH's are the de facto heavy cruisers, and the F&E production schedule even allows for their unlimited substitution.

[Hexx]

BCH's replaced CC's and DN's are pretty much the biggest "Command ships"
DNL's are (as you suggest) Fast-DN's as opposed to lighter DNs

[762_XC]

BCH's did NOT replace CC's. No race could build more than one a year.

[FPF-DieHard]

BCH's did NOT replace CC's. No race could build more than one a year.

BCHs were built in place of Dreads, not CCs. 

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

So you're saying that Z-HDW1 (a bona fide 6-rack droner which can hold a lvl 4 (!!!) trac at speed 31) is a line ship, and Z-CC is not?

Pass me some of that nip please. 

Z-CC released 2247

Z-HDW1 released 2282

35 years of technology make alot of difference.  The Bismarc was a wonder for its time, but wouldn't have been so hot in 1976 

[Green]

So you're saying that Z-HDW1 (a bona fide 6-rack droner which can hold a lvl 4 (!!!) trac at speed 31) is a line ship, and Z-CC is not?

Pass me some of that nip please. 

Z-CC released 2247

Z-HDW1 released 2282

35 years of technology make alot of difference.  The Bismarc was a wonder for its time, but wouldn't have been so hot in 1976 

Lepton,

The above discourse is basically what I was talking about.  Defining "line" is very difficult and seems to always result in disagreement.  Keep in mind, I (and almost all others here) think the idea of a line server is good.  Just defining line is the problem.

[FPF-DieHard]

So you're saying that Z-HDW1 (a bona fide 6-rack droner which can hold a lvl 4 (!!!) trac at speed 31) is a line ship, and Z-CC is not?

Pass me some of that nip please. 

Z-CC released 2247

Z-HDW1 released 2282

35 years of technology make alot of difference.  The Bismarc was a wonder for its time, but wouldn't have been so hot in 1976 

Lepton,

The above discourse is basically what I was talking about.  Defining "line" is very difficult and seems to always result in disagreement.  Keep in mind, I (and almost all others here) think the idea of a line server is good.  Just defining line is the problem.

a "line ship" server should have a more defined run time and not go into Late era, makes the definition easier

[FPF-Paladin]

So you're saying that Z-HDW1 (a bona fide 6-rack droner which can hold a lvl 4 (!!!) trac at speed 31) is a line ship, and Z-CC is not?

Pass me some of that nip please. 

Z-CC released 2247

Z-HDW1 released 2282

35 years of technology make alot of difference.  The Bismarc was a wonder for its time, but wouldn't have been so hot in 1976 

Lepton,

The above discourse is basically what I was talking about.  Defining "line" is very difficult and seems to always result in disagreement.  Keep in mind, I (and almost all others here) think the idea of a line server is good.  Just defining line is the problem.

a "line ship" server should have a more defined run time and not go into Late era, makes the definition easier

Hrm, that plus the point you made above about ISC.  I know people like flying 'em but they were never, ever meant to be put on a balance scale vs ships of the same hull class.

[Lepton]

So you're saying that Z-HDW1 (a bona fide 6-rack droner which can hold a lvl 4 (!!!) trac at speed 31) is a line ship, and Z-CC is not?

Pass me some of that nip please. 

Regarding command ships being line, by the end of the GW, CCH's are the de facto heavy cruisers, and the F&E production schedule even allows for their unlimited substitution.

I was looking for some information just like this in my F&E stuff but I am not familiar with the game.  Is there something in F&E that would help us define a line ship as you seem to suggest with the production schedule?

[Lepton]

So you're saying that Z-HDW1 (a bona fide 6-rack droner which can hold a lvl 4 (!!!) trac at speed 31) is a line ship, and Z-CC is not?

Pass me some of that nip please. 

Z-CC released 2247

Z-HDW1 released 2282

35 years of technology make alot of difference.  The Bismarc was a wonder for its time, but wouldn't have been so hot in 1976 

Lepton,

The above discourse is basically what I was talking about.  Defining "line" is very difficult and seems to always result in disagreement.  Keep in mind, I (and almost all others here) think the idea of a line server is good.  Just defining line is the problem.

I'm not so sure it matters how they are defined as long as people can accept the definition.  I think what may be more irksome to people is the leverage that flying a line ship will give one unless it is countered.

[FPF-DieHard]

So you're saying that Z-HDW1 (a bona fide 6-rack droner which can hold a lvl 4 (!!!) trac at speed 31) is a line ship, and Z-CC is not?

Pass me some of that nip please. 

Regarding command ships being line, by the end of the GW, CCH's are the de facto heavy cruisers, and the F&E production schedule even allows for their unlimited substitution.

I was looking for some information just like this in my F&E stuff but I am not familiar with the game.  Is there something in F&E that would help us define a line ship as you seem to suggest with the production schedule?

In F&E, a CCH is identical to a CC. 

[Lepton]

Can we merely define a line ship as any ship below a certain bpv that is not a carrier varient, a casual carrier or tender, or a marine variant and must carry the race's major heavy weapon (i.e. mirak, klink, and fed ships must have disruptors and photons on them; plasma races must have offensive plasma)?  This would exclude dedicated droners and escorts that have point defense on them.  Anyone hate that?

My other suggestion was for a much more restricted definition of a line ship such as only the standard FF, DD, CL, CA, NCL, NCA, (or CC's) and their immediate + or R refits.  The real line ships, the workhorses of the fleet.  Not every race's shiplist fits well into these categories.  That is where some judgement will be needed.

One thing I am trying to avoid is that the definition of a line ship becomes so inclusive that it would essentially mean everything but the capital ships is exempt from the disengagement rule/hex ban.  It is not my intent to gut the disengagement rule/hex ban, but to offer a special set of conditions in which it would not apply as an inducement to flying line ships and to make them something worth flying strategically.

[FPF-DieHard]

Can we merely define a line ship as any ship below a certain bpv that is not a carrier varient, a casual carrier or tender, or a marine variant and must carry the race's major heavy weapon (i.e. mirak, klink, and fed ships must have disruptors and photons on them; plasma races must have offensive plasma)?  This would exclude dedicated droners and escorts that have point defense on them.  Anyone hate that?

SOmebody will hate it.   

I agree that there needs be ba e BPV limit.   The 192 BPV R-NHK is well in the BCH BPV range though SFC sees it as a CCH (SFB is a different story . . . )

I would suggest 179.   This is a point below the "industry standard" BCHs K-C7 and F-BCF, it also allows for the Romulan R-FHK (179) to be "vannilla."

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Can we merely define a line ship as any ship below a certain bpv that is not a carrier varient, a casual carrier or tender, or a marine variant and must carry the race's major heavy weapon (i.e. mirak, klink, and fed ships must have disruptors and photons on them; plasma races must have offensive plasma)?  This would exclude dedicated droners and escorts that have point defense on them.  Anyone hate that?

Now I know why we have that disruptor on the Z-DF 

[Lepton]

I've been looking over the F&E Master SITs for each race and have come upon the idea that a first cut at line ships should be the base hulls from which conversions can be made.   Here is the list:

Fed: CA, CL, DW, DD, FF, NCL, NCA, HDW
Kilnk: D7, D6, D5, D5W, F5, FW, HDW
Rom: FH, K7R, KR, WE, BH, SP, K5, K4, SK, SEH, SN, HDW
Gorn: BC, BD, CL, CM, DD, HD, HDW
Hydran: CHY, CU, DG, DWF, DWH, HN, IRQ, KN, LN, MHK, RN, HDW
ISC: CA, CL, FF, DD, HDW
Kzin: CL, CM, DD, DW, FF, NCA, CM, HDW, BC
Lyran: CA, CL, CW, DD, DW, FF, NCA, HDW

That is a rough first cut with, I'd say the inclusion of the standard + or R refits of those that have them.  We can add from this base list those that we think are appropriate but I would say this is the base to start from.  I am fine with keeping or axing the HDW.  Makes no difference to me.

All comments and suggestions welcome.

[762_XC]

The shiplist itself specifies what is line and what is not. The only exception is fast cruisers, which are easy to pick out.

I would take it a step further and exclude ships which were historically unique, like the F-CS and H-CHY.

[Lepton]

The shiplist itself specifies what is line and what is not. The only exception is fast cruisers, which are easy to pick out.

I would take it a step further and exclude ships which were historically unique, like the F-CS and H-CHY.

If what you say were true, why the debate on what is a line ship? Perhaps the shiplist makes a specification that can be interpreted in that manner, but that doesn't mean people will agree with it.  I don't really know shiplists.  Perhaps you're right.

Also, as I said, I fear there being too many ships that may be included in the line ship definition such that nearly any ship that isn't a cap ship would be exempt from the disengagement rule/hex ban which I do not think is desireable or my intention.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

The shiplist itself specifies what is line and what is not.

Which shiplist?  the stock one? or a player designed one?

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

I would take it a step further and exclude ships which were historically unique, like the F-CS and H-CHY.

I agree here and I think the kestrels fit in that category as well.  but it wouldn't kill me to consider them as line.

[762_XC]

It can be universally agreed that:

Droners
Maulers
True carriers
Escorts
Fast Cruisers
Commando ships
Scouts/survey ships

are not line. All of these are identified in column F of the shiplist, except for fast cruisers, and we know which ones those are.

HDW's, command cruisers, and heavy metal are open for debate.

[Lepton]

I would take it a step further and exclude ships which were historically unique, like the F-CS and H-CHY.

I agree here and I think the kestrels fit in that category as well.  but it wouldn't kill me to consider them as line.

I see what he is referring to.  If you open the OP+ shiplist there is a field near the end that specifies a role for the ship.  I am fine with those line ship definitions except for the X ships of course.  Um, are there some line ships that may carry fighters beyond the Hydrans?  Not sure I would consider those line ships, but if someone has already done all the work, that is fine by me.  Wish I had known that before I spent time reviewing the SITs.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

I think there are some ships with a few fighters on them, the HDWs come to mind as well as all those casual carriers and casual tenders. 

In my list of the mirak line ships I considered the non specialty variants to be line ships and the upgrades where extra fighter were added as specialty as they had "casual carrier" in their name.  i also considered all the casual tender ships as specialty.  All races have these so it should fit across the spectrum.

[Lepton]

It seems the only resistance to this scheme is the definition of a line ship which I think is relatively immaterial.  Let me cover a couple of scenarios that may help frame the issues.  The parameters are including CCs and keeping the current fleeting rules or abandoning them.

CCs in/current fleeting rules:
3 CCs encounter a capital ship escorted by two line ships.  The line ship have a special advantage here as the 3 CCs could work to attempt to destroy or injure the cap ship thereby forcing him to disengage and if they fail and are forced to disengage it's not a big deal as the presence of the non-line ship removes the disengagement rule/hex ban for the 3 CCs.

CCs in/no fleeting rules:
3 CCs encounter a heavy metal fleet that way outclasses them.  Again if the CCs could manage to cripple or destroy one of the cap ships, this would be a great tactical and strategic victory.  The CCs could then disengage without being driven out of the hex.

CCs out/current fleeting rules:
Same conditions as above example.  Here the 3 CAs would be damn lucky I think to inflict significant damage or destroy the cap ship.  If they do, more power to them but I think it unlikely.  Again, the 3 CAs could disengage at any time with no penalty other than the DV shift.

CCs out/no fleeting rule:
Same as above example with 3 cap ships.  Now the 3 CAs are likely vastly outclassed.  Again, if they could pull off a coup and hurt or destroy one of the cap ships, they are really doing something great and could just leave the map giving up the DV shift but scoring a tactical and strategica victory.  Of course the 3 CAs would not be banned from the hex.


So I think what we are looking at is basically, if we allow CCs in the definition of line ships, setting up a system in which the top line ships could compete well in PvP and get the benefits of exemption from hex bans.  I'd suggest that some would consider this a bit too much of an advantage and I don't think this is exactly what I intend.

If we leave CCs out of the line ships, we are creating something like two levels of playing this game on a server, the line ships level that tops out at the CA level and the cap ship level.  You may be surprised to learn that this is my preferred alternative as I see the system as in a sense protecting those players in line ships from the pressures of cap ship engagements while preserving the legitimacy of the capital ships' role in being big and scary.

If you can put together a 3 CC fleet that can challenge a cap ship and its escorts, then one wonders why they, the CCs, should need the protection of the hex ban exemption.  In my opinion, they do not need that exemption.  As well, many a player already chooses a CC to fly when not in a cap ship, so exempting CCs from the hex ban will do little to change the make up of the ships we see used on a server with this rule set in place.  I think we are trying to get people in different kind of ships and make them a viable option rather than benefit something that players already are doing.

I also see limiting line ships to the CA level as a good mechanism for the new players to get their feet wet in PvP and not be challenged by crazy scary ships in a battle that counts.  If you want to push a newbie out of a hex, you are going to have come down to his level so to speak and show him how it is done.  And if you can't do that, you aren't as good as you think you are.  This is the leveling of the playing field in at least one area that I would like to see.

[762_XC]

If you don't allow CC's you might as well not bother with this. People will not fly an NCA in 2280 no matter how much you bribe them.

[Lepton]

You don't think that people might not choose to fly a ship that is exempt from the disengagement rule and cannot be forced out of the hex unless it is engaged by a ship that is an appropriate match.  You are also forgetting all the hex flippers who might be glad to fly a ship that is exempt from the disengagement rule/hex ban.  You'd have to tell me what the significance of 2280 is for I haven't a clue.

I'd say if you do allow CCs you might as well not do it at all because then nearly everyone on the server not in metal will be exempt from the disengagment rule/hex ban and you might as well not have that rule that you are attempting to exempt ships from.

I think you are going to have to do a little bit better than a cryptic one-liner that suggest you know something that I don't know for us to actually have a conversation on this. So, feel free to expand on your remarks and convince me you are right, but nay-saying isn't getting anything accomplished.

[FPF-DieHard]

People will not fly an NCA in 2280 no matter how much you bribe them.

XP Partial-X refits?   

[Lepton]

X-ships are crap.  I know that people seem to like them and they were created by the efforts of those with good intentions, but I'd really prefer never to see them again.

[Hexx]

You don't think that people might not choose to fly a ship that is exempt from the disengagement rule and cannot be forced out of the hex unless it is engaged by a ship that is an appropriate match.  You are also forgetting all the hex flippers who might be glad to fly a ship that is exempt from the disengagement rule/hex ban.  You'd have to tell me what the significance of 2280 is for I haven't a clue.

I'd say if you do allow CCs you might as well not do it at all ...

Here's (one of the) problems again
line ships that are an "appropriate" match.
Hydran DG (stock) is going to completely and utterly own a D7 (stock)
Fed CA will do teh same thing
Kzin stock CA's while probably being more equal to the D7 have 4 drone racks,which mean faster mission times.
So there (on a traditonal map) we have 3 races bordering the Klingons who will likely be able to overrun
the empire from 2263-68(ish) now some things change when the D5K comes out (69), but you've still given
5 days of Alliance superiority.

Now (of course) it depends on what year the server starts in etc, but (again) you'll find it repeated.
The non CC's of the races really aren't all that well balanced.
 

[Capt_Bearslayer_XC]

H-DG does not pwn a K-D7 until the + refit comes out.

Until then, it is phG's are pointed RA only.  So the Ph2's in front have to be saved for drones. It is basicly 4 HB's vs the entire D7....

[762_XC]

You'll just have to wait until the D7B comes out in 2265 and pwns all that other early era crap.

Anyway, since when can't a D7 beat a CA?

[Lepton]

I don't think there is going to be a happy balance no matter where one decides to cut off the level of a line ship.  I think it is less important that for a period of time one race has some dominance over another.  The question is more to my mind: do you think it is a decent suggestion that I have made?  So far I see meager support.  The validity of the idea does not rest on any equivalency amongst the top level line ships.  It rests more with whether players will be incentived enough to fly them.  Tool thinks not to some degree.  I disagree.  As soon as a few people hop into line ships, the other side will be nearly obligated to do so.  That's the beauty of the rules as I have proposed them.  You have to get into a line ship to bump the line ship players out of the hex.  Now perhaps no one will fly them, then the point is moot but I think these ships will represent a tactical and strategic opportunity.  I have not seen anyone address this last point.  Do you think line ships in this proposal would be a good tactical and strategic option?

[Dfly]

My money would be on the Fed CA over the D7, unless a very skilled Klink pilot is also present.  Again, if the Fed pilot messes up, the D7 could win.  

[Dfly]

I don't think there is going to be a happy balance no matter where one decides to cut off the level of a line ship.  I think it is less important that for a period of time one race has some dominance over another.  The question is more to my mind: do you think it is a decent suggestion that I have made?  So far I see meager support.  The validity of the idea does not rest on any equivalency amongst the top level line ships.  It rests more with whether players will be incentived enough to fly them.  Tool thinks not to some degree.  I disagree.  As soon as a few people hop into line ships, the other side will be nearly obligated to do so.  That's the beauty of the rules as I have proposed them.  You have to get into a line ship to bump the line ship players out of the hex.  Now perhaps no one will fly them, then the point is moot but I think these ships will represent a tactical and strategic opportunity.  I have not seen anyone address this last point.  Do you think line ships in this proposal would be a good tactical and strategic option?

I think the only way to know is to have a server with them.  Perhaps a 1 week server?  To test this out.  I can see it going 1 of 2 ways:

1- The PvPer decides line ships are fun, even if they dont count for kills unless they kill a non-line ship(truly dont expect this to happen)
2- The PvPer figures it is not worth his troubles and gets the biggest baddest ship he can anyway, and runs missions, or ties up the line ships in battles so the flippers can flip while the line ships are tied up trying to kill a ship that counts for points. (most likely going to happen).

There may be other ways to have the outcome, but until it is actually tested, who knows.

BTW Lepton, I do beleive your idea is valid, it is the finalizing of it that may be a pain.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

It seems the only resistance to this scheme is the definition of a line ship which I think is relatively immaterial.  Let me cover a couple of scenarios that may help frame the issues.  The parameters are including CCs and keeping the current fleeting rules or abandoning them.

CCs in/current fleeting rules:
3 CCs encounter a capital ship escorted by two line ships.  The line ship have a special advantage here as the 3 CCs could work to attempt to destroy or injure the cap ship thereby forcing him to disengage and if they fail and are forced to disengage it's not a big deal as the presence of the non-line ship removes the disengagement rule/hex ban for the 3 CCs.

CCs in/no fleeting rules:
3 CCs encounter a heavy metal fleet that way outclasses them.  Again if the CCs could manage to cripple or destroy one of the cap ships, this would be a great tactical and strategic victory.  The CCs could then disengage without being driven out of the hex.

CCs out/current fleeting rules:
Same conditions as above example.  Here the 3 CAs would be damn lucky I think to inflict significant damage or destroy the cap ship.  If they do, more power to them but I think it unlikely.  Again, the 3 CAs could disengage at any time with no penalty other than the DV shift.

CCs out/no fleeting rule:
Same as above example with 3 cap ships.  Now the 3 CAs are likely vastly outclassed.  Again, if they could pull off a coup and hurt or destroy one of the cap ships, they are really doing something great and could just leave the map giving up the DV shift but scoring a tactical and strategica victory.  Of course the 3 CAs would not be banned from the hex.


So I think what we are looking at is basically, if we allow CCs in the definition of line ships, setting up a system in which the top line ships could compete well in PvP and get the benefits of exemption from hex bans.  I'd suggest that some would consider this a bit too much of an advantage and I don't think this is exactly what I intend.

If we leave CCs out of the line ships, we are creating something like two levels of playing this game on a server, the line ships level that tops out at the CA level and the cap ship level.  You may be surprised to learn that this is my preferred alternative as I see the system as in a sense protecting those players in line ships from the pressures of cap ship engagements while preserving the legitimacy of the capital ships' role in being big and scary.

If you can put together a 3 CC fleet that can challenge a cap ship and its escorts, then one wonders why they, the CCs, should need the protection of the hex ban exemption.  In my opinion, they do not need that exemption.  As well, many a player already chooses a CC to fly when not in a cap ship, so exempting CCs from the hex ban will do little to change the make up of the ships we see used on a server with this rule set in place.  I think we are trying to get people in different kind of ships and make them a viable option rather than benefit something that players already are doing.

I also see limiting line ships to the CA level as a good mechanism for the new players to get their feet wet in PvP and not be challenged by crazy scary ships in a battle that counts.  If you want to push a newbie out of a hex, you are going to have come down to his level so to speak and show him how it is done.  And if you can't do that, you aren't as good as you think you are.  This is the leveling of the playing field in at least one area that I would like to see.

Pretty much agree with your conclusions Lepton.  Nice presentation.

[Julin Eurthyr]

BCH's did NOT replace CC's. No race could build more than one a year.

BCHs were built in place of Dreads, not CCs. 

From ancient research into ISC "ship classes":

Each race maintains 4 slipways, or shipyards designed to produce a specific hull.  To be generic about it, they were all FF, DD, CA, DN sizes.  Granted, this is not an exact science (Mirak preferred to build CLs in their DD slipway, while the Feds skipped building CLs altogether and the Klinks used their CA lines to build their D6 CLs...) but it works for purpose of this presentation.

As the General War progressed, each race noticed that the FFs were dying way too quickly, and they all wanted more CAs then ever.  So, the designers went to work, beefing up the ships produced in the FF line and making a near-cruiser equivalent, thus the "war" craft were born.

The DW was designed to be built in the FF slipway, and the CW (often nearly equal to the early-era CA) was designed for the DD slipway.  That left the CA slipway to build CCs, CBs and BCHs to command these new designs.  And, of course, the usual variant-heaven went to work, Command, Drone, Scout, Carrier, Pac-Man, etc., variants of all the new craft were pencilled together...

The ISC ships are designed / classified to fight what the appropriate shipyard was producing at the time of the ISC's introduction.  Hence, the I-FFZ was designed to counter what was left of FFs at the time (FFB / F6 / Z-DF with appropriate fast drone upgrades actually paid for), I-DDZ vs DW, I-CLZ vs CW, I-CAZ vs CB, I-CCZ vs BCH.
If you pay attention, you'll notice that the Rommie Hawks are built on these same lines - Skyhawks are DWs, Sparrowhawks are CWs, Firehawks CAs, Nova/Regal hawks are CBs / mini BCHs, and the Killerhawk is a pocket-dread, to counter the lack of a "true" Hawk-BCH...  In both cases of late-war introduction of a line, the BPV / classifications of the "new" lines fall into the appropriate ranges of everyone else's late era ships, not the early era ships.

[bca11]

How did you guys learn which ship comes out when and what ship is its counter?

Is there a list somewhere?

[Capt_Bearslayer_XC]

How did you guys learn which ship comes out when and what ship is its counter?

Is there a list somewhere?

Look on the ship list for YFA (year first available) and add it to 2260 (I think) and that gives you the year it comes out.

As for what ship is its counter... experience and looking at BPV's....

[Hexx]

YFA 0 in the shiplist is 2263.
add/subtract from that
(so YFA 17 is 2280 etc)

[GDA-S'Cipio]

I've been looking over the F&E Master SITs for each race and have come upon the idea that a first cut at line ships should be the base hulls from which conversions can be made.   Here is the list:

Fed: CA, CL, DW, DD, FF, NCL, NCA, HDW
Kilnk: D7, D6, D5, D5W, F5, FW, HDW
Rom: FH, K7R, KR, WE, BH, SP, K5, K4, SK, SEH, SN, HDW
Gorn: BC, BD, CL, CM, DD, HD, HDW
Hydran: CHY, CU, DG, DWF, DWH, HN, IRQ, KN, LN, MHK, RN, HDW
ISC: CA, CL, FF, DD, HDW
Kzin: CL, CM, DD, DW, FF, NCA, CM, HDW, BC
Lyran: CA, CL, CW, DD, DW, FF, NCA, HDW

That is a rough first cut with, I'd say the inclusion of the standard + or R refits of those that have them.  We can add from this base list those that we think are appropriate but I would say this is the base to start from.  I am fine with keeping or axing the HDW.  Makes no difference to me.

All comments and suggestions welcome.

That's a great list to start with, and from an F&E standpoint it is almost complete.  Just be sure to add the Gorn FF.

You'll also need to add the non-command upgrades to each ship.  F&E ignores all of these as they make the generalization that all upgrades happen at the same "strategic rate" and thus the balance of power between the CAs etc. is not changed.  (and thus players don't have to pick up all their counters several times during the game and replace them all with new counters that are 1 combat point better on both sides of every border.)

You might consider tossing the Romulans a bone with the KE.  It is, technically, a command cruiser.   However that's because it was a late conversion of the WE.   The first ones built were used as command ships for squadrons of 1st gen Romulan ships, to ease logistics problems caused by mixing in 3rd gen command ships, and thus it became known as a command cruiser.   However, as more and more WE's were converted, it became a general-purpose line cruiser.  I think it is a logical addiiton to the list.

However, I'd only make the addition if there were no other "logical additions".    If it opens the door for a whole slew of other exceptions then it's best to leave it out.    It's not that important a ship in the Romulan list; just an interesting one.

-S'Cipio

[GDA-S'Cipio]

If you don't allow CC's you might as well not bother with this. People will not fly an NCA in 2280 no matter how much you bribe them.

<shrug>  If they don't want to, they don't have to.   But if I beat them then they have to be gone for a while.  How long will vary from campaign to campaign, but I'd suggest it be long enough to sting.

People will fly the ships that give them the edge they are looking for.   This scheme gives them options.   If they feel it is important to stay in an area for a while, they will choose the ships that let them do so.

-S'Cipio