Topic: Storm Season III Disengagement Rule Poll

[GDA-Agave]

Don't be fooling around with the Gorn BF.  It comes out in 2268, and we are at a severe disadvantage until then.  

Doesnt matter, there are other ships to fly. Jeff has half his map or something the BF cant even fly in. 

Due to the GW, the gorn dont get their stimulus package till 75. So DH floated the idea of pushing their F refits up to 2270. I happen to like that idea. One CF per fleet MAX is good. Catagorizing them as capital ships is better, although more severe.

I certainly hope you guys are not suggesting the Gorn get the F refit before they get the + refit.   I'm not a SFB guru, but I played the game.  If I remember correctly, the + refit upgraded the G torps to S torps, and THEN the F refit added the defensive F torps.   I sincerely hope you guys are not planning on the Gorn flying with G torps until 2275.

Can you explain a little more?

[Dizzy]

DH can flesh it out, it's his proposal, and I like it. However, if we want to leave them all as is, then we need to run a campaign where we have traditional alliances and a map with traditional ally and enemy empire placement. But that's no fun. 

EDIT: And I forgot the most important part, we need each empire to be playable only when they historically entered the GW... so the Gorn as a race wouldnt be playable till the romulans launched their assault in 75.

[FPF-DieHard]

My proposal is to add the F-torps WHILE the G-Torps are still on the ships.  Upgrade to S torps stays on Schedule.

[Lepton]

Argh

Too many replies. And honestly you're turning what (in my mind anyway) was a very simple system into something hugely complicated.

OK
~ First and foremost.
The idea that new or lesser skiiled pilots feel they hurt their team if they lose PVP is stupid.

I don't care if it's someone telling them that (which would be worse) or simply some personal feeling they have of costing their team points. Everyone costs their team points. And no one's going to really improve unless you throw yourself into PVP time and time again. If you really don't want to fly PVP because you don't like it-no problem. If you stay away from PVP fights beacause you're worried about costing your team-you're an idiot, fly the game, get blown up. It's what got me to where I am today 

~ Second

The original idea of this was to move the elite pilots out from the specialty ships and into the CC's.
This would serve to break up the killer fleet combos (ie 2CF and a droner in early/DNH + plasma PF tender later)
by giving the elite PVP pilots reason to fly the CC's.

This has 2 effects- as mentioned it breaks up the killer fleets. While a fleet with 3 ace pilots is still going to be tough opposition
It's not the same if a fleet has 2xCCh and a DNH as one that has DNH, plasma PF tender and a droner.

It also allows new players 2 options, they can try and score PVP points by jumping into a CC, or they can fly a specialty ship
and try and push people out of hexes. Whichever they find more fun.

Some people seem hung on the idea that this deosn't really diminish the PVP pilot skill in 1v1's- (no it doesn't)
and want to work out some system where the new pilots are givne some bonus- let me put this out again-
the new pilots have to be willing to lose a ship, to watch how an enemy pilot kills them in order to improve.
I suppose if we wanted to we could have Dave script in a mission button that new players could press that instantly won them the mission and told them how great they were- but I'm not sure if that would teach them anything.

Some people like the concept of having their DNH plioted by their best pilot, escorted in the two best specialty ships they
can put their other top pilots into, and create a near unstoppable small fleet.
They won't like the idea either.

People have pointed out that "well everyone will jump in CCH's...duh"
Yes they will- after 2275. Before that they will (hopefully) be in the CC's/CWL's that aren't as good as
the races CF.

~3rd

People are going on about teh heavy metal-
None of this is to be taken to apply to the heavy metal.
Killing a DN is still killing a DN, and the metal would still (I assume) be controlled by point cost.

4th- "but I fly CF's (droners/whatver) this will mean I don't count"
No-it would mean you don't score PVP points, you can still flip hexes and push the enemy off the map if you win a pvp



It is not a perfect system- what it is is an easy to use system that rewards the better PVP pilots for staying out of the super ships of death they practically have to fly these days.

Hexx, I totally agree.  It is a great system. You restated exactly what I was going to say after seeing this thing spin out of control.  If you want to earn PvP points, earn them in a ship that will test your metal, a line ship.  Killing someone or running them off still is as meaningful (if not in a line) as it always was as it effects the map with the hex ban rule.

Note this does not mean that folks cannot fly crazy capital ships battle if they wish and people surely will, but the effect of a win or loss in this type of battle will be the hex ban that has a map effect and if a cap ship is destroyed, the loss of fielding it for a period of time.

It's merely a system to induce folks to fly line ships and to my mind potentially level the playing field a bit in PvP.

But, I will make this addition which I am sure someone already suggested.  Make line ships immune to the disengagement rule when attacked by a non-line ship.  Tada!!  So you can bring all the heavy metal you want into a hex, but if you are merely running off line ships and vaporizing them, you are only accomplishing the DV shift.  To really drive a line ships out, you will have to get in a line ship and duke it out.

Sorry, if this was suggested already but I can't see a downside right now to this proposal.

[762_XC]

Make line ships immune to the disengagement rule when attacked by a non-line ship.

That is interesting...

[Lepton]

"4th- "but I fly CF's (droners/whatver) this will mean I don't count"
No-it would mean you don't score PVP points, you can still flip hexes and push the enemy off the map if you win a pvp"

Again....this means that if I kill anyone flying a D5D....it's worth no PvP points....yet my death (at the hands of an ace in a line ship)...is worth PvP points...

I fail to understand why you want to give this type of immunity to the very people who dont need it the first place...

I certainly dont want any type of immunity...killing me should count as good an killing anyone ragrdless of what I'm flying.....I just want credit for any kill I might get lucky enough to pull off...regardless of what I'm flying...

IIRC...the only kills I've ever gotten on any server were in a D5D....

Crim, in the system I am proposing one can only gain PvP points by both players being in a line ship.  I am not saying that it is not difficult or skillful to be able to take someone out in a D5D.  All I am proposing is a sort of artifical system that rewards folks for flying line ships in that the battles they fight against other line ships will have a special status in  that the victor earns points for their side.  That's it.

[KBF-Crim]

"4th- "but I fly CF's (droners/whatver) this will mean I don't count"
No-it would mean you don't score PVP points, you can still flip hexes and push the enemy off the map if you win a pvp"

Again....this means that if I kill anyone flying a D5D....it's worth no PvP points....yet my death (at the hands of an ace in a line ship)...is worth PvP points...

I fail to understand why you want to give this type of immunity to the very people who dont need it the first place...

I certainly dont want any type of immunity...killing me should count as good an killing anyone ragrdless of what I'm flying.....I just want credit for any kill I might get lucky enough to pull off...regardless of what I'm flying...

IIRC...the only kills I've ever gotten on any server were in a D5D....

Crim, in the system I am proposing one can only gain PvP points by both players being in a line ship.  I am not saying that it is not difficult or skillful to be able to take someone out in a D5D.  All I am proposing is a sort of artifical system that rewards folks for flying line ships in that the battles they fight against other line ships will have a special status in  that the victor earns points for their side.  That's it.

And I'm saying that doing so ,will eliminate an entire facet of the game for some people....myself included...

I refuse to be "induced" to flying certain ships for the pleasure of others....this is a game...not military service...

So under this system...once one side gets a PvP kill advantage...all they need to do to to keep from loosing any points for the duration of the server ,is to NOT fly line ships anymore...

3 seconds and I found an exploit....what next..a rule that says line ships MUST be flown?

Sorry...but that's just plain old goofy...

I applaud the goal...but the means of getting there are all fupped duck...

The simplest damn thing was posted in the first page...by me....just make line ships worth a point..and specials worth two...

I'll even add....beat a ship one class higher....add a point....beat a ship two classes higher....two points...etc...

So my D5D...beaten by DH in an FF (just an example)...would be worth

2 pts for a special killed...

+2 pts for out of class combat...

where as ...If I killed him...it would only be worth one point....no negative modifiers apply

What I'm saying is...one battle could generate mutiple points for the liner...and a single for the special...

Ideally...we'd throw in a modifier for skill levels also...

Only an Ideal....but either scenario still generates a reward...instead of a penalty...

[Lepton]

It's a good point you raise.  Had not considered that.  Perhaps with removing the disengagement rule for line ships when attacked by non-line ships would be a sufficient inducement to fly the lines ships again.  What's to prevent this happening in the current system?  A side could elect to mothball its capital ships and have everyone fly flippers knowing that flippers can run many missions under a heavy metal fleet from the opposing side engaging anyone for a significant length of time.  I take your point.  It's definitely an issue, but it is my presumption that people will want to fly these line ships.  If they do not, it will never work in the first instance.

[el-Karnak]

I'll even add....beat a ship one class higher....add a point....beat a ship two classes higher....two points...etc...

So my D5D...beaten by DH in an FF (just an example)...would be worth

2 pts for a special killed...

+2 pts for out of class combat...

Class info on the engaging players can be posted in the mission debrief screens. Can even put in the class differential between the opposing players.

[Dfly]

Let me toss something out completely from left field here.  I have been reading these posts for quite some time tonight, and wondered if this next idea sounds like fun or not.

1-All PvP VETS(and you know who you are) are to use line ships
2-All non-PvP pilots(pretty much everyone else, noob or not) can use larger(not like Chutt or Soreyes or flippers ever will)
3-Each team has max heavy metal limits and Capital ship restrictions
4-All ships have virtually no costs(allowing the casuals a big ship early, even if they lose one, or 2, or is TraumaTech   )
5-All ships worth 1 point dead, with the weekly scoring system used on SG06(losing a ship does not cost a team)
6-Heavy metal and Cap ships worth maybe say 2 points max.(not to discourage use of them by non PvPer)


Perhaps some PvP gurus will not like this idea, but I for one, PvPer, would love the challenge of taking on PvPers in line ships, and giving the non-PvPers a chance at bigger ships, to make the challenge on our end tougher, while knowing we can replace our ship should we lose it, as can the Non-PvPer.

[KBF-Crim]

It's a good point you raise.  Had not considered that.  Perhaps with removing the disengagement rule for line ships when attacked by non-line ships would be a sufficient inducement to fly the lines ships again.  What's to prevent this happening in the current system?  A side could elect to mothball its capital ships and have everyone fly flippers knowing that flippers can run many missions under a heavy metal fleet from the opposing side engaging anyone for a significant length of time.  I take your point.  It's definitely an issue, but it is my presumption that people will want to fly these line ships.  If they do not, it will never work in the first instance.

I'm just a sneaky old wargamer...exploits are my specialty...each rule has an equal but opposite effect....law of equivolent exchange...for something to be gained....something else must be given up....*Blatent full metal alchemist reference*

Carrot or stick....I'd prefer carrot...

Like I said....a reward for the line flyer is better than a penalty for the special...make a kill with a liner worth double.....

That alone should be incentive enough to get a few aces into them...And since a specialty is worth double when killed by a liner....some people will downsize to avoid giving up double points...

The liner gets a bonus...while at the same time....the special doesnt get a penalty...

Seems like a win/win to me.....and it still achives the same goal...without someones efforts seeming worthless or second class...

 

[KBF-Kapact]

I like the idea that any PVP win is a VP. I haven't had too many PVP's, so the idea appeals to me, and I would like to see my kill count in the overall campaign.....

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

You can fix "plain old suck"....

I'm only threat to a human pilot in a D5D or a D6U with cheesy ass fighters...

It seems as though I shouldnt be a "threat" at all....either my classing myself as a noob...or flying line crap I can hardly beat AI in...

I think you got off track in my meaning here Crim.  I didn't anywhere say you could not fly a specialty or line ship, For me this has never been a good option.  I only suggest that if you do fly carriers, droners, or  heavy metal, a stronger disengagement penalty would apply, this penalty being identical to the one that everyone had on SG6.  I repeat there is nothing that says you couldn't fly a specialty ship.  What I am proposing is a system that might reward "aces" for stepping down to a less pvp capable ship and that would encourage pilots who want to PvP but are afraid of hurting their team by doing so to have such an opportunity to do so without it becoming a burden to their side, whether real or imagined.  Under my propossal youd be in EXACTLY the same situation as on SG^ when flying a D5D or D6U, no change at all.

If you think you suck, let me tell you you don't.  For example, You think a bit more about strategy than many pilots on, thats why sometimes I have to go hunting for you.  Other online pilots might be attacking uncreative areas, your attacks have usually been guided by better thinking than the average opponent and thus I have to address them, when flying against you.  Their are certain opponents whose activities I make a special point of watching, and many "PvP aces" are not on this list, you are.   As far as PvP, I haven't encountered you outside a droner very often and noone knows how to take out a droner better than a drone boat skipper, so I can't really judge your skills in PvP from that limited exposure.  I'm willing to make you a deal, however, out of a respect for you.  I'll show you a few PvP tricks that will likely improve your performance, if you swear not to share them with the rest of your fleet who I'm often facing as foes    It wont make you a "top ace"  I'm not one either, but may improve your PvP accumen and if your like me, you don't mind losing to a better player as long as you manage to put up a good fight.  Just let me know and we will arrange a time.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Anything that punishes CF's is fine in my books.

Now about those plasma users..

Could it have anything to do with these being the ships that are fast enought to catch you before you can run off the border?   

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

2-All non-PvP pilots(pretty much everyone else, noob or not) can use larger(not like Chutt or Soreyes or flippers ever will)

And what was I flying the last time I watched you make top speed for the border?  And what was I flying the last time I turned your ship into space dust?  Perhaps you'd like to rethink that last statement 

Sure I spend alot of time in smaller ships, droners and others, they are usually among my favorites for the race I'm flying.  The only races with CA classes I like as much as the CLs are Feds, Roms, and Lyrans.  The only races where I like the BCHs better than the CAs are Roms and Lyrans, and their is no race where I prefer ships bigger than a BCH.  I will fly a non-preferred ship if the need arrises but generally stay in the ships I like best or are best for my purpose, is this wrong?  Not a chance.

[KBF-Crim]

I think you got off track in my meaning here Crim.

Quite possible....there are at least three topics going on here

I didn't anywhere say you could not fly a specialty or line ship, For me this has never been a good option.

No ...you didnt....nor did I think you did...

Alot of what I'm saying is directed at the general idea of only awarding points to line ship kills of specials or line ship kills on other line ships (this one kinda evolved)

  I only suggest that if you do fly carriers, droners, or  heavy metal, a stronger disengagement penalty would apply, this penalty being identical to the one that everyone had on SG6.

Hmmm..I must have missed that item....THAT I can get along with...

I repeat there is nothing that says you couldn't fly a specialty ship.

Covered

  What I am proposing is a system that might reward "aces" for stepping down to a less pvp capable ship and that would encourage pilots who want to PvP but are afraid of hurting their team by doing so to have such an opportunity to do so without it becoming a burden to their side, whether real or imagined.

A worthy goal.

Under my propossal youd be in EXACTLY the same situation as on SG^ when flying a D5D or D6U, no change at all.

That's fine....it's the other propsal I have issues with....

If you think you suck, let me tell you you don't.  For example, You think a bit more about strategy than many pilots on, thats why sometimes I have to go hunting for you.  Other online pilots might be attacking uncreative areas, your attacks have usually been guided by better thinking than the average opponent and thus I have to address them, when flying against you.  Their are certain opponents whose activities I make a special point of watching, and many "PvP aces" are not on this list, you are.

I'm humbled by your kind words.....wargaming strategery I gots.....it's the tacticals I'm lacking....TACTICALS...not testicals

Oh I am dangerous alright.....kinda like getting stepped on by a horse is dangerous.....chances are...the horse didnt mean it...

I know I'm not completely inept....but after years of playing I'm about as good as I'm going to ever get.....I have kinda settled into a nich role that I can fill with confidence...I wing...I distract...I "hit em where they aint"...I run cover...I run under....I hex munch...I dogpile..I sit rock...I chase deepstrikers...and occasionally....I hunt...

All these roles I can fill with one ship...the D5D....

   As far as PvP, I haven't encountered you outside a droner very often and noone knows how to take out a droner better than a drone boat skipper, so I can't really judge your skills in PvP from that limited exposure.

I've been honestly avoiding PvP as of late.....unless my presence is requested as a wing....or to run cover for a hex team...

  I'm willing to make you a deal, however, out of a respect for you.  I'll show you a few PvP tricks that will likely improve your performance, if you swear not to share them with the rest of your fleet who I'm often facing as foes    It wont make you a "top ace"  I'm not one either, but may improve your PvP accumen and if your like me, you don't mind losing to a better player as long as you manage to put up a good fight.  Just let me know and we will arrange a time.

A generous offer.....and no...I dont fear loosing a battle....I fear putting a burden on my team for loosing a battle...

And I must be forthright....as a senior officer in the Klingon Black Fleet....I would immediately post any intel gathered from any such encounter for the exclusive use of my fleet brothers...

But we can work on my game, without you having to share yours...

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Quite possible....there are at least three topics going on here

Undoubtably I get lost myself regarding my own ideas, I'm kinda a brainstorming type and the storm blows out of control at times.  Occassionally it brings a needed rain, most times it is just so much hot air 

All these roles I can fill with one ship...the D5D....

Hey I'm an unashamed droner as well, I just like to diversify on occassion as sometimes I'm needed to fill a role that requires a different ship, but the droner is the ship which fits most (but not all) needs.  They hexflip, they are perfect for planetary assaults, they make good wings in PvP for some ships, and they can be deadly in the right hands if your foe isn't very careful.


I've been honestly avoiding PvP as of late.....unless my presence is requested as a wing....or to run cover for a hex team...

A generous offer.....and no...I dont fear loosing a battle....I fear putting a burden on my team for loosing a battle...

A fear I have often shared, I'm a team oriented player as well, but strangely enough I generally prefer to fly alone unless a specific need arises.  Part of the reason for that is that I don't want my screwups to get my wing killed.  There are some wings I do particularly enjoy flying with and for the simple reason that I know I could lose a BB for the team and they wouldn't give a damn as long as I had fun.  Nonetheless I don't want to hurt the team effort.  Of course another reason I like to fly alone is I like to strike hard, strike fast, do the unexpected, and take risks that aren't necessarily good to do with a wingman, both in mission and strategically.  Most of the time, I'm really not sure what hex I'm in, I get in my own private rythem.  Yet what keeps me going and what keeps me playing this game is all the action on voice coms, no matter if I'm flying alone in mission, I got a group of wingmen in my ear and that is what makes it worthwhile for me.

And I must be forthright....as a senior officer in the Klingon Black Fleet....I would immediately post any intel gathered from any such encounter for the exclusive use of my fleet brothers...

LOL No problem I don't blame you, that kind of attitude is what has made the KBF so enduring.  But I can't exactly let Dib know any secrets, he is too even a fight for me as is, and I sure can't risk WarSears actually learning how to properly fly a droneboat 

But we can work on my game, without you having to share yours...

Cool.  Anytime you want to fly a combat let me know.  I have no problem in participating in some "for fun" fights during a server.  If I'm not doing something critical for my team at that moment I'll met you for some fun, no VCs no disengagement involved, just fun.

P.S.  Dont tell the folkes in Hot & Spicy that Chuut and Crim can get along so well, it might ruin or reputations over there 

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Like I said....a reward for the line flyer is better than a penalty for the special...make a kill with a liner worth double.....

Not a bad Idea Crim, but I'd say make it worth +1 point instead of double.  This would equate to double in the case of 1 pt ships, but would a 4 pt ship really be worth 8pts if killed by a liner?  I could see 5pts but not 8 as some "liners" are very capable in PvP. perhaps the points could go as high as 150% norn but i think even that may be a bit much.

[Soreyes]

2-All non-PvP pilots(pretty much everyone else, noob or not) can use larger(not like Chutt or Soreyes or flippers ever will)

Hmmm I have been known to get into a CA every once in awhile..... Even a BB

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

2-All non-PvP pilots(pretty much everyone else, noob or not) can use larger(not like Chutt or Soreyes or flippers ever will)

Hmmm I have been known to get into a CA every once in awhile..... Even a BB

Yeah but thats only because we threaten to make you the Kzin Rm if you don't