Topic: Storm Season III Disengagement Rule Poll

[Hexx]

Hexx that's a nice idea but it's simply not going to work. If I'm putting together an HK group I want the best combo possible and no amount of points incentive is ever going to change that.

A DNL and 2xCF is a better combo than a DNL and 2xCC. Not only that, once we start approaching 2280, the CC combo is nigh useless since all fights are done at speed 29-31.

.

Unquestionably tey're more effective- that's why they're used.
But if the DNL 2 xCF combo couldn't score any PVP VP points, players might try with a DNL 2xCC combo

Again it completely depends on the map- on a map with few VP hexes you'd still fly the 2XCF, as the area denial would be far more effectice
on a map with a few dozen VP hexes, you might try the CC's- as the PVP vps might be worth more to a side.

Again I think the system has ease of use and would work .
It's not going to be perfect.

[FPF-DieHard]

When did we ever use a carrier in that role?

We didn't, I just didn't want to give all the blame to Fast Cruisers 

[762_XC]

But if the DNL 2 xCF combo couldn't score any PVP VP points, players might try with a DNL 2xCC combo

No, you are totally wrong here. People will still use the best possible combo they can.

In the mind of the PvP pilot, WINNING THE FIGHT is more important than "points". It always has been and always will be.

[FPF-DieHard]

But if the DNL 2 xCF combo couldn't score any PVP VP points, players might try with a DNL 2xCC combo

No, you are totally wrong here. People will still use the best possible combo they can.

In the mind of the PvP pilot, WINNING THE FIGHT is more important than "points". It always has been and always will be.

An Strategicly speaking, kicking them out of the hex is better than the VP points anyway.

[el-Karnak]

No matter which disengagement rule is used, the skilled player will usually win, and the loser will suffer consequences of being out of that hex, or losing a PVP point.  Both of which is disheartening to the loser.  I would think it would be in the best interest of everyone, to allow the players that need to polish their PVP skills, to allow them to get back into the hotspot and play again.  You CAN'T get better, if you don't learn from the mistakes you made.    You lose a point, but get back in and try again, that = learning.  Having someone forced out of the hotspot, means less PvP = not learning.

I don't fancy the idea of losing PvP points for losses in the cheaper line ships and as the PvP points add up it could discourage new players from engaging in PvP matches even if there is no hex ban to worry about.  

To compensate, I would keep the ship costs cheap; especially, since people like to use multiple racial accounts, don't give up PvP points for losses of line ships, but reduce the one hex radius ban period to 30 minutes from one hour.  If a new player is constantly suffering PvP losses then they need a veteran to wing with and the 30 minutes ban period can be used to regroup and find a wing.

[Hexx]

But if the DNL 2 xCF combo couldn't score any PVP VP points, players might try with a DNL 2xCC combo

No, you are totally wrong here. People will still use the best possible combo they can.

In the mind of the PvP pilot, WINNING THE FIGHT is more important than "points". It always has been and always will be.

No
Winning the fight has been more important as the maps we've used have tended to only have 1-2 areas of VP targets
easily accessable at one time.
Therefore winning the fight is far more important than scoring a few kills.
If, instead, yes you'd won the fight, but there was 12-15 other hexes that your opponenets could jump to you'd likely be far less
content with simply driving them off.

[FPF-DieHard]

To compensate, I would keep the ship costs cheap; especially, since people like to use multiple racial accounts, don't give up PvP points for losses of line ships, but reduce the one hex radius ban period to 30 minutes from one hour.  If a new player is constantly suffering PvP losses then they need a veteran to wing with and the 30 minutes ban period can be used to regroup and find a wing.

We did this on AOTK2, nobody flew Line ships on that either

[Dizzy]

Hexx that's a nice idea but it's simply not going to work. If I'm putting together an HK group I want the best combo possible and no amount of points incentive is ever going to change that.

A DNL and 2xCF is a better combo than a DNL and 2xCC. Not only that, once we start approaching 2280, the CC combo is nigh useless since all fights are done at speed 29-31.

You want to limit CF's in this scenario, you have two options:

1) Remove them totally
2) Fleeting restrictions

Even if they are assigned or limited, I'm still going to use them in the role where they are most effective, and that's escorting cap ships.

Solution:   Count ALL Carriers and CFs as Capital ship in regards to Fleeting.  No more cheese fleets.

Treating CF's as capital ships really helps control this ship from getting flown in EVERY engagement... I was sick of seeing them abused like they were on SG6.

All carriers? Nah, the carrier rules we have are ok. I'd even go so far as lowering patrol carriers to standard carriers and just catagorizing trhe interdiction carriers as capital ships. Carriers arnt that uber... There are ways of dealing with them as long as there arnt too many.

[FPF-DieHard]

Hexx that's a nice idea but it's simply not going to work. If I'm putting together an HK group I want the best combo possible and no amount of points incentive is ever going to change that.

A DNL and 2xCF is a better combo than a DNL and 2xCC. Not only that, once we start approaching 2280, the CC combo is nigh useless since all fights are done at speed 29-31.

You want to limit CF's in this scenario, you have two options:

1) Remove them totally
2) Fleeting restrictions

Even if they are assigned or limited, I'm still going to use them in the role where they are most effective, and that's escorting cap ships.

Solution:   Count ALL Carriers and CFs as Capital ship in regards to Fleeting.  No more cheese fleets.

Treating CF's as capital ships really helps control this ship from getting flown in EVERY engagement... I was sick of seeing them abused like they were on SG6.

All carriers? Nah, the carrier rules we have are ok. I'd even go so far as lowering patrol carriers to standard carriers and just catagorizing trhe interdiction carriers as capital ships. Carriers arnt that uber... There are ways of dealing with them as long as there arnt too many.

Okay, what Dizzy said

[Dizzy]

A DNL and 2xCF is a better combo than a DNL and 2xCC. Not only that, once we start approaching 2280, the CC combo is nigh useless since all fights are done at speed 29-31.

WRONG. DH and I had an excellent castling match together against TT and Hexx. Then I had one with Butcher against Ducks Z-BB. Castling against 2x mirvs and 12 racks is tough!   I castled against a Z-CM+ and a F-CX with my ISC X. Then there was that infamous corner castling twat match where kroma tried to find out what I had for lunch. And there were other instances where going fast were certainly not the way to play it.

But despite these examples, CF's are gonna get slapped with a restriction fit for a capital ship.

[Hexx]

Anything that punishes CF's is fine in my books.

Now about those plasma users..

[el-Karnak]

To compensate, I would keep the ship costs cheap; especially, since people like to use multiple racial accounts, don't give up PvP points for losses of line ships, but reduce the one hex radius ban period to 30 minutes from one hour.  If a new player is constantly suffering PvP losses then they need a veteran to wing with and the 30 minutes ban period can be used to regroup and find a wing.

We did this on AOTK2, nobody flew Line ships on that either

I do not think there is a rule set anywhere that will keep the elite players out of the specialty ships unless you start charging them PP by the hour to rent the uber ship or something onerous like that. Have seen this trend in both SFCOP and SFC3 dynas. Everyones goal is to get into the most uber ship possible.

Best you can do is reduce the impact of specialty ships with max. heavy iron limits, fleeting rule limits, no VP scores for kills, but VP losses for losses, etc.  People will always use the best ships available to dominate the hot zones, but if you can counter this by ganging up on the specialty ships and bagging them for VCs then that's fun.

Granted that people will naturally gravitate towards the best specialty ships, it does the new player no good if they can go back in the hex immediately for another disadvantageous PvP fight to lose more VP points. It's better to take a breather and find a vet to wing with to go get the specialty ships. All the while, the new player does not have to worry about losing VPs if they are flying line ships to start with.

When it comes to crunch-time in the hot zones, the RMs are gonna push the rulesets and shiplist to the limit in order to  send in the best players with the best ships they can find to control the hexes they need to meet the current rounds VCs.  

[GDA-Agave]

~ If you've had someone express to you that you're hurting your team by losing a ship I'd suggest you tell them to STFU or just post it in the forums. Hopefully they'll get roasted.  However I would consider you to be a better- so if it was directed at you maybe tehy were just joking?

Well, thanks for that vote of confidence, but I only consider myself a mediocre pilot at best.  

What I was referring to was OTHER pilots saying those things to me.   Hell, considering I've lost an ISC BBV in a homeworld assault I got suckered into by Kroma, if I worried about every ship I've lost that mission would have severly f*cked me up.     Of course, there is always the chance I just started that way too.  

Malak and Crim, you guys crack me up.   Keep the zingers coming.


Agave

[762_XC]

I'm speaking in general Dizzy, not for every single fight. Try that combo against plasma, or 8xPF's or 24 fighters.

[GDA-Agave]

Anything that punishes CF's is fine in my books.

Now about those plasma users..

Don't be fooling around with the Gorn BF.  It comes out in 2268, and we are at a severe disadvantage until then.  

The Gorn fast cruiser would be the CMF which could easily be resticted in my book.   Several pilots found out on SGO6 how much this ships rocks when flown in a nebula or as an escort.

(or were you implying you wanted all us plasma users punished too.     )

[FPF-DieHard]

I'm speaking in general Dizzy, not for every single fight. Try that combo against plasma, or 8xPF's or 24 fighters.

Let us focus on 2263 to 2279, I have some other ideas for post 2280 . . . .

[Dizzy]

Don't be fooling around with the Gorn BF.  It comes out in 2268, and we are at a severe disadvantage until then.  

Doesnt matter, there are other ships to fly. Jeff has half his map or something the BF cant even fly in. 

Due to the GW, the gorn dont get their stimulus package till 75. So DH floated the idea of pushing their F refits up to 2270. I happen to like that idea. One CF per fleet MAX is good. Catagorizing them as capital ships is better, although more severe.

[Hexx]

Don't be fooling around with the Gorn BF.  It comes out in 2268, and we are at a severe disadvantage until then.  

Due to the GW, the gorn dont get their stimulus package till 75. So DH floated the idea of pushing their F refits up to 2270. I happen to like that idea. One CF per fleet MAX is good. Catagorizing them as capital ships is better, although more severe.

Doesn't this sort of reverse the imbalance though? (not sarcasm-don't know)
If the Gorn BC is out in 70, instead of 75, won't that be an imbalance for teh Roms who (I believe) both built and upgraded the FH series between 71-75? Or are you moving those up as well?

[FPF-DieHard]

Don't be fooling around with the Gorn BF.  It comes out in 2268, and we are at a severe disadvantage until then.  

Due to the GW, the gorn dont get their stimulus package till 75. So DH floated the idea of pushing their F refits up to 2270. I happen to like that idea. One CF per fleet MAX is good. Catagorizing them as capital ships is better, although more severe.

Doesn't this sort of reverse the imbalance though? (not sarcasm-don't know)
If the Gorn BC is out in 70, instead of 75, won't that be an imbalance for teh Roms who (I believe) both built and upgraded the FH series between 71-75? Or are you moving those up as well?

The Roms have hte Kestrals at that time.

[Hexx]

Don't really look evenly matched to me <shrug> but it's plasma so what do I know.
Long as none of the Roms have any complaints though I certainly don't.