Topic: Storm Season III Disengagement Rule Poll

[el-Karnak]

Telling me I will no longer count for anything ...that just might do it...

Tell me about it.... Granted, I missed a lot of SGO6, but I felt pretty damn useless as I only had, at most, 8 PvP fights the entire server and was only in on the kill of a K-FWL as part of a 3v3.

Add to that the loss of a M-FDXm in PvP (and a H-OM I j'inn'd RIGHT after losing a H-OS to a planet killer ) and my whole server was pretty lame....

I spent a whole year without being able to connect to hardly anyone in PvP until I finally had my router system figured out.  I was just happy in SG06 to be able to connect with everyone. Before, I could only connect consistently with peoply in TCP/IP games or I had to resort to using dial-up ISP account.

Suddenly, the game is seen in a whole different light when I can wing and PvP with 90+ percent of the playerbase.

Karnak => is OK C++ programmer, just DO NOT let this frog near the network gear.

[Dizzy]

Ya it was good finally seeing how you could connet with players. I wonder how much an influence your scripting codes took from your inability to connect b4 hand.

[el-Karnak]

Ya it was good finally seeing how you could connet with players. I wonder how much an influence your scripting codes took from your inability to connect b4 hand.

Before, getting in good PvP was not a priority cuz I was too busy mucking around with mission scripts. Now, my focus is back on PvP so I trouble-shoot my network problems more seriously.

[KBF MalaK]

Chuuts point brings up something I brought up before.   You shouldn't be worth and VP points unles you've killed at least one pilot that server.

I havent killed a pilot for a few servers now....why should I not count as a kill?

Because you're a n00b

LOL...bastard...No...it's because I suck....I have hit a skill wall I have never broken through....

I understand tactics...I understand break ranges and EW....I understand weaknesses...

I just cant apply them...

I've tried other races...it just gets worse...

None of that has made me not want to play.....

Telling me I will no longer count for anything ...that just might do it...

I'm with you here, I too can't apply some of the stuff I know- so I'm claiming the Noob banner !!!

I've been in the same ship for the last 3 servers (D5) mostly because I'm horrified at the thought of facing one of you aces in a specialty ship, so I avoid PVP like the plague (unless I get to wing with an ace), so I relegate myself to 'support services' like hex flippin and hex reinforcment vs AI.

I remember my first PVP on Dyna- Duck had a DWD, and I had a D7C- I was destroyed in the first pass. I haven't been in anything larger than a D6 since (unless you count my I-BBVz for base killing). Sure, I'd play more PVP if my deaths didn't hurt my team so much.

On a personal note- sorry Dave, I didn't want to  kill you (in SGO6), but you begged me too.

[GDA-Agave]

Some very good points here.

Certainly one that I agree with is that larger capital ships (BCH and larger) should be worth more than 1 VC pt if killed.   You fly the heavy metal ships, you pay a higher price.   Hey, it's not like its ever happened to me.  

As for singling out what is or is not a "line ship" so that you can figure who, what, or when a VC PvP point should or should not be awarded.   Gimme a break.   This is exactly the discussions that I see as completely pointless on the forums.   This is just more of the SFB conjectureable tripe that I could care less about.   How about a simple VC PvP pt ladder based on hull size.  How about just this.

Heavy cruiser (yes, even the command variants) or smaller - 1 VC pt if killed
BCH (cruiser, carrier, PF tender, all variants) - 2  VC pts if killed
DN, CVA (ya know, the really big crap) - 4 VC pts if killed.

No points awarded for disengagement, just a time penality.  I do prefer the radius disengagement rule if the map is large.  Personally, I like the larger maps.   But the disengagement area should fit the map size.   I would like to see shorter disengagement times, like a 30 minute max.   It sucks for anyone who may have 1-3 hours to play at any given time to be told that since they have now disengaged from the current "hot" zone they will have to fly their remaining missions elsewhere.    Hmmmmm, fun.  With Capt Jeff's idea of no time penalty for loss of ship, this is corrected completely.   You could certainly put a small time penalty on loss of ship, say like 1/2 or 1/3 of the full disengagement penalty so that the defenders (or attackers) do have some gained advantage for the kill.   If fact maybe that would be best.  A good compromise.

Now, as for the possible classifying of pilots as a "newbie".   Come on guys.   Why don't we just get them to add a N to the end of their name so we can all tell right off.   What, no branding irons?   No hoop hexes they have to jump through to get to the front lines?   We all know there is learning curve for new pilots.   Certainly this is a game where pilot skill more so than ship selection is what determines how most missions finish out.  Especially, live PvP matches.   Do we have to blalantly point this out to everyone.   They know it (or will shortly), we know it.   Why set up a rule base that clearly points out, "Hey, your a newbie.  Therefore your ability to get PvP VC pts is limited.   But guess what, you ability to lose pts is just as limited.  Aren't you thrilled?"  Wow, that sure would me feel special.   Woudn't you think that they might feel more as an equal member of this community if we treat them as such?

Sure, I've offered newer players a tow after it became evident to me (we Gorn can be slow at times)that they were a new player.  Some accept, some tell me to finish them off.  "Hey, its part of the game, but I sure did fight you well!" I've heard several times.   You are going to have some new players more cautious, while others will be right out there whooping our ass, and having us vets asking, "Hey, who was that masked man?"

I will consistently do what I can to support this community however and whenever I can.   I just don't think that some of these complex and ultimately distracting rules help.

Agave

[el-Karnak]

Some very good points here.

Certainly one that I agree with is that larger capital ships (BCH and larger) should be worth more than 1 VC pt if killed.   You fly the heavy metal ships, you pay a higher price.   Hey, it's not like its ever happened to me.  

As for singling out what is or is not a "line ship" so that you can figure who, what, or when a VC PvP point should or should not be awarded.   Gimme a break.   This is exactly the discussions that I see as completely pointless on the forums.   This is just more of the SFB conjectureable tripe that I could care less about.   How about a simple VC PvP pt ladder based on hull size.  How about just this.

Heavy cruiser (yes, even the command variants) or smaller - 1 VC pt if killed
BCH (cruiser, carrier, PF tender, all variants) - 2  VC pts if killed
DN, CVA (ya know, the really big crap) - 4 VC pts if killed.

No points awarded for disengagement, just a time penality.  I do prefer the radius disengagement rule if the map is large.  Personally, I like the larger maps.   But the disengagement area should fit the map size.   I would like to see shorter disengagement times, like a 30 minute max.   It sucks for anyone who may have 1-3 hours to play at any given time to be told that since they have now disengaged from the current "hot" zone they will have to fly their remaining missions elsewhere.    Hmmmmm, fun.  With Capt Jeff's idea of no time penalty for loss of ship, this is corrected completely.   You could certainly put a small time penalty on loss of ship, say like 1/2 or 1/3 of the full disengagement penalty so that the defenders (or attackers) do have some gained advantage for the kill.   If fact maybe that would be best.  A good compromise.

Now, as for the possible classifying of pilots as a "newbie".   Come on guys.   Why don't we just get them to add a N to the end of their name so we can all tell right off.   What, no branding irons?   No hoop hexes they have to jump through to get to the front lines?   We all know there is learning curve for new pilots.   Certainly this is a game where pilot skill more so than ship selection is what determines how most missions finish out.  Especially, live PvP matches.   Do we have to blalantly point this out to everyone.   They know it (or will shortly), we know it.   Why set up a rule base that clearly points out, "Hey, your a newbie.  Therefore your ability to get PvP VC pts is limited.   But guess what, you ability to lose pts is just as limited.  Aren't you thrilled?"  Wow, that sure would me feel special.   Woudn't you think that they might feel more as an equal member of this community if we treat them as such?

Sure, I've offered newer players a tow after it became evident to me (we Gorn can be slow at times)that they were a new player.  Some accept, some tell me to finish them off.  "Hey, its part of the game, but I sure did fight you well!" I've heard several times.   You are going to have some new players more cautious, while others will be right out there whooping our ass, and having us vets asking, "Hey, who was that masked man?"

I will consistently do what I can to support this community however and whenever I can.   I just don't think that some of these complex and ultimately distracting rules help.

Agave

 

Whatever the Gorn is drinking, I'll take it.  

[KBF MalaK]

Some very good points here.

Certainly one that I agree with is that larger capital ships (BCH and larger) should be worth more than 1 VC pt if killed.   You fly the heavy metal ships, you pay a higher price.   Hey, it's not like its ever happened to me.  

As for singling out what is or is not a "line ship" so that you can figure who, what, or when a VC PvP point should or should not be awarded.   Gimme a break.   This is exactly the discussions that I see as completely pointless on the forums.   This is just more of the SFB conjectureable tripe that I could care less about.   How about a simple VC PvP pt ladder based on hull size.  How about just this.

Heavy cruiser (yes, even the command variants) or smaller - 1 VC pt if killed
BCH (cruiser, carrier, PF tender, all variants) - 2  VC pts if killed
DN, CVA (ya know, the really big crap) - 4 VC pts if killed.

No points awarded for disengagement, just a time penality.  I do prefer the radius disengagement rule if the map is large.  Personally, I like the larger maps.   But the disengagement area should fit the map size.   I would like to see shorter disengagement times, like a 30 minute max.   It sucks for anyone who may have 1-3 hours to play at any given time to be told that since they have now disengaged from the current "hot" zone they will have to fly their remaining missions elsewhere.    Hmmmmm, fun.  With Capt Jeff's idea of no time penalty for loss of ship, this is corrected completely.   You could certainly put a small time penalty on loss of ship, say like 1/2 or 1/3 of the full disengagement penalty so that the defenders (or attackers) do have some gained advantage for the kill.   If fact maybe that would be best.  A good compromise.

Now, as for the possible classifying of pilots as a "newbie".   Come on guys.   Why don't we just get them to add a N to the end of their name so we can all tell right off.   What, no branding irons?   No hoop hexes they have to jump through to get to the front lines?   We all know there is learning curve for new pilots.   Certainly this is a game where pilot skill more so than ship selection is what determines how most missions finish out.  Especially, live PvP matches.   Do we have to blalantly point this out to everyone.   They know it (or will shortly), we know it.   Why set up a rule base that clearly points out, "Hey, your a newbie.  Therefore your ability to get PvP VC pts is limited.   But guess what, you ability to lose pts is just as limited.  Aren't you thrilled?"  Wow, that sure would me feel special.   Woudn't you think that they might feel more as an equal member of this community if we treat them as such?

Sure, I've offered newer players a tow after it became evident to me (we Gorn can be slow at times)that they were a new player.  Some accept, some tell me to finish them off.  "Hey, its part of the game, but I sure did fight you well!" I've heard several times.   You are going to have some new players more cautious, while others will be right out there whooping our ass, and having us vets asking, "Hey, who was that masked man?"

I will consistently do what I can to support this community however and whenever I can.   I just don't think that some of these complex and ultimately distracting rules help.

Agave

No, I want, no DEMAND special treatment !

If my loss means nothing, GREAT ! If killing you means nothing so what, at least I get bragging rights, and TONS of experience.

Of course losing consistantly will cost me numerous ships, and I'll end up flying a gunboat (just like my first server) and the 'ace' will still have his CC+.

 

[KBF-Crim]

Chuuts point brings up something I brought up before.   You shouldn't be worth and VP points unles you've killed at least one pilot that server.

I havent killed a pilot for a few servers now....why should I not count as a kill?

Because you're a n00b

LOL...bastard...No...it's because I suck....I have hit a skill wall I have never broken through....

I understand tactics...I understand break ranges and EW....I understand weaknesses...

I just cant apply them...

I've tried other races...it just gets worse...

None of that has made me not want to play.....

Telling me I will no longer count for anything ...that just might do it...

Tow Hexx into a rock on the first day, that will count.

*crim begins to wipe pepsi from keyboard*

You know...you really need to warn people when you going to be so damn funny...

Point well taken...

[Hexx]

Argh

Too many replies. And honestly you're turning what (in my mind anyway) was a very simple system into something hugely complicated.

OK
~ First and foremost.
The idea that new or lesser skiiled pilots feel they hurt their team if they lose PVP is stupid.

I don't care if it's someone telling them that (which would be worse) or simply some personal feeling they have of costing their team points. Everyone costs their team points. And no one's going to really improve unless you throw yourself into PVP time and time again. If you really don't want to fly PVP because you don't like it-no problem. If you stay away from PVP fights beacause you're worried about costing your team-you're an idiot, fly the game, get blown up. It's what got me to where I am today  

~ Second

The original idea of this was to move the elite pilots out from the specialty ships and into the CC's.
This would serve to break up the killer fleet combos (ie 2CF and a droner in early/DNH + plasma PF tender later)
by giving the elite PVP pilots reason to fly the CC's.

This has 2 effects- as mentioned it breaks up the killer fleets. While a fleet with 3 ace pilots is still going to be tough opposition
It's not the same if a fleet has 2xCCh and a DNH as one that has DNH, plasma PF tender and a droner.

It also allows new players 2 options, they can try and score PVP points by jumping into a CC, or they can fly a specialty ship
and try and push people out of hexes. Whichever they find more fun.

Some people seem hung on the idea that this deosn't really diminish the PVP pilot skill in 1v1's- (no it doesn't)
and want to work out some system where the new pilots are givne some bonus- let me put this out again-
the new pilots have to be willing to lose a ship, to watch how an enemy pilot kills them in order to improve.
I suppose if we wanted to we could have Dave script in a mission button that new players could press that instantly won them the mission and told them how great they were- but I'm not sure if that would teach them anything.

Some people like the concept of having their DNH plioted by their best pilot, escorted in the two best specialty ships they
can put their other top pilots into, and create a near unstoppable small fleet.
They won't like the idea either.

People have pointed out that "well everyone will jump in CCH's...duh"
Yes they will- after 2275. Before that they will (hopefully) be in the CC's/CWL's that aren't as good as
the races CF.

~3rd

People are going on about teh heavy metal-
None of this is to be taken to apply to the heavy metal.
Killing a DN is still killing a DN, and the metal would still (I assume) be controlled by point cost.

4th- "but I fly CF's (droners/whatver) this will mean I don't count"
No-it would mean you don't score PVP points, you can still flip hexes and push the enemy off the map if you win a pvp



It is not a perfect system- what it is is an easy to use system that rewards the better PVP pilots for staying out of the super ships of death they practically have to fly these days.

[KBF-Crim]

"One man's cheese, is another man's only hope for survival"  KBF-Crim

Only if you're opponent has Cheese, otherwise all you need is practice

Dude...I'll admit it....after almost 7 years of playing this game...I'm a mediocure player at best...I can barely beat the AI in a line ship...

Straight up....if practice where the answer...I'd be a frickin ace by now.......oh sure I like to play....hell...I love this game......but I stopped deluding myself a year or two ago....

I found this white paper to be quite useful for getting the basics down:

http://www.dynaverse.net/forum/index.php/topic,163361467.0.html

The basics arent a problem....

I know how to dance....I'm just not any good at it...

[Dizzy]

Best learning a newbie gets is when he gets pwnd. The newbs need to be encouraged to get killed. Only way they get better.

I had a match near the end of the server where several newbs attacked me with such reckless abandon they almost killed me... I heard later they asked for permission to engage me with their capital ships as they were expecting to die, which they did. But hearing that made me think about how hard they press their attacks. The worst of it was when we had a build system on past servers. Losing BP ships was quite painful and as a result noobs never really flew them and those servers were heavy metal elitest.

But lets face it, if there wernt pvp penalties for dying, I'd get a lot more PvP and the best part is that newbs would engage in combat much more often and would be better for it. And I do think a shorter hex ban penalty is in order.

It does, however, need to be pointed out that from ALL the engagements, losses and PvP points doled out over the entire SGO6 campaign, only ONE Victory Point was earned from it the entire campaign irrc. So in perspective, it all depends on how the PvP points are calculated. Newbs must be made aware they can die and not hurt their team. The rules have to allow for this if you use PvP points.

[KBF-Crim]

"4th- "but I fly CF's (droners/whatver) this will mean I don't count"
No-it would mean you don't score PVP points, you can still flip hexes and push the enemy off the map if you win a pvp"

Again....this means that if I kill anyone flying a D5D....it's worth no PvP points....yet my death (at the hands of an ace in a line ship)...is worth PvP points...

I fail to understand why you want to give this type of immunity to the very people who dont need it the first place...

I certainly dont want any type of immunity...killing me should count as good an killing anyone ragrdless of what I'm flying.....I just want credit for any kill I might get lucky enough to pull off...regardless of what I'm flying...

IIRC...the only kills I've ever gotten on any server were in a D5D....

[Capt Jeff]

Adding more points to specialty or capital ships will do nothing but push newbies away from even trying to learn how to use them.

No matter which disengagement rule is used, the skilled player will usually win, and the loser will suffer consequences of being out of that hex, or losing a PVP point.  Both of which is disheartening to the loser.  I would think it would be in the best interest of everyone, to allow the players that need to polish their PVP skills, to allow them to get back into the hotspot and play again.  You CAN'T get better, if you don't learn from the mistakes you made.    You lose a point, but get back in and try again, that = learning.  Having someone forced out of the hotspot, means less PvP = not learning.

SS3 will have limits on CVA/DN/BCH/Carrier type ships allowed at a time.  A large part of the map will not be open to any of those ships, as it will be CL or smaller.  The amount of Map VC's will be fair.   PvP will definitely play a role in the outcome of the campaign, but since there will be newbies on both sides, I can't believe one side would benefit so much that the campaign would be decided by this.....

It also comes down to sportsmanship.   The winner of the PvP will report the kill.  If you are a ACE pilot, and you just thrashed some newbie, do you really need to report it?  Maybe tell them at the beginning of the match, that if they stay, LEARN, and quite possibly die trying to kill you, then they have earned your respect, and you will not report the kill?

After all, it's not who wins the match or the campaign, it's who had fun right.  Games are for fun  

[KBF MalaK]

Argh

Too many replies. And honestly you're turning what (in my mind anyway) was a very simple system into something hugely complicated.

OK
~ First and foremost.
The idea that new or lesser skiiled pilots feel they hurt their team if they lose PVP is stupid.

I don't care if it's someone telling them that (which would be worse) or simply some personal feeling they have of costing their team points. Everyone costs their team points. And no one's going to really improve unless you throw yourself into PVP time and time again. If you really don't want to fly PVP because you don't like it-no problem. If you stay away from PVP fights beacause you're worried about costing your team-you're an idiot, fly the game, get blown up. It's what got me to where I am today  

~ Second

The original idea of this was to move the elite pilots out from the specialty ships and into the CC's.
This would serve to break up the killer fleet combos (ie 2CF and a droner in early/DNH + plasma PF tender later)
by giving the elite PVP pilots reason to fly the CC's.

This has 2 effects- as mentioned it breaks up the killer fleets. While a fleet with 3 ace pilots is still going to be tough opposition
It's not the same if a fleet has 2xCCh and a DNH as one that has DNH, plasma PF tender and a droner.

It also allows new players 2 options, they can try and score PVP points by jumping into a CC, or they can fly a specialty ship
and try and push people out of hexes. Whichever they find more fun.

Some people seem hung on the idea that this deosn't really diminish the PVP pilot skill in 1v1's- (no it doesn't)
and want to work out some system where the new pilots are givne some bonus- let me put this out again-
the new pilots have to be willing to lose a ship, to watch how an enemy pilot kills them in order to improve.
I suppose if we wanted to we could have Dave script in a mission button that new players could press that instantly won them the mission and told them how great they were- but I'm not sure if that would teach them anything.

Some people like the concept of having their DNH plioted by their best pilot, escorted in the two best specialty ships they
can put their other top pilots into, and create a near unstoppable small fleet.
They won't like the idea either.

People have pointed out that "well everyone will jump in CCH's...duh"
Yes they will- after 2275. Before that they will (hopefully) be in the CC's/CWL's that aren't as good as
the races CF.

~3rd

People are going on about teh heavy metal-
None of this is to be taken to apply to the heavy metal.
Killing a DN is still killing a DN, and the metal would still (I assume) be controlled by point cost.

4th- "but I fly CF's (droners/whatver) this will mean I don't count"
No-it would mean you don't score PVP points, you can still flip hexes and push the enemy off the map if you win a pvp



It is not a perfect system- what it is is an easy to use system that rewards the better PVP pilots for staying out of the super ships of death they practically have to fly these days.

Don't tell Kreug, but I'm gonna fly for the alliance next server. If your saying dying will get me more experience- I'm game. But to be real, I'd rather it cost the 'bad guys' than my team.

[GDA-Agave]

Argh

Too many replies. And honestly you're turning what (in my mind anyway) was a very simple system into something hugely complicated.

Funny, that's what I thought you were doing.

~ First and foremost.
The idea that new or lesser skiiled pilots feel they hurt their team if they lose PVP is stupid.

I don't care if it's someone telling them that (which would be worse) or simply some personal feeling they have of costing their team points. Everyone costs their team points. And no one's going to really improve unless you throw yourself into PVP time and time again. If you really don't want to fly PVP because you don't like it-no problem. If you stay away from PVP fights beacause you're worried about costing your team-you're an idiot, fly the game, get blown up. It's what got me to where I am today  

Subtle Hexx, very subtle.    Stupid or not, I have heard those exact things expressed to me on more than one occasion.

~ Second

The original idea of this was to move the elite pilots out from the specialty ships and into the CC's.
This would serve to break up the killer fleet combos (ie 2CF and a droner in early/DNH + plasma PF tender later)
by giving the elite PVP pilots reason to fly the CC's.

This has 2 effects- as mentioned it breaks up the killer fleets. While a fleet with 3 ace pilots is still going to be tough opposition
It's not the same if a fleet has 2xCCh and a DNH as one that has DNH, plasma PF tender and a droner.

Some people seem hung on the idea that this deosn't really diminish the PVP pilot skill in 1v1's- (no it doesn't)
and want to work out some system where the new pilots are givne some bonus- let me put this out again-
the new pilots have to be willing to lose a ship, to watch how an enemy pilot kills them in order to improve.
I suppose if we wanted to we could have Dave script in a mission button that new players could press that instantly won them the mission and told them how great they were- but I'm not sure if that would teach them anything.

Some people like the concept of having their DNH plioted by their best pilot, escorted in the two best specialty ships they
can put their other top pilots into, and create a near unstoppable small fleet.
They won't like the idea either.

Ok. How about we try breaking up the hunter/killer fleets in a different way.  Or even with a combination of ideas.

(1) New fleeting rules - only CL or smaller ships can escort capital ships (speciality CLs too)

(2) Instead of hull restricted mosh pit, how about an area where no one can fly together, set up special rules for that area so as to encourage pilots to fly there; a 1v1 PvP haven, it might just bring back more open challenges

Want do you think about these ideas?

~3rd

People are going on about teh heavy metal-
None of this is to be taken to apply to the heavy metal.
Killing a DN is still killing a DN, and the metal would still (I assume) be controlled by point cost.

Agreed.

4th- "but I fly CF's (droners/whatver) this will mean I don't count"
No-it would mean you don't score PVP points, you can still flip hexes and push the enemy off the map if you win a pvp

A live PvP kill should always be worth something.   Sure, if you get your opponent to disengage, you have done just what you say.  I don't think we have ever been talking about awarding pts for disengagements.

It is not a perfect system- what it is is an easy to use system that rewards the better PVP pilots for staying out of the super ships of death they practically have to fly these days.

Why don't we just take these super death ships out of the shiplist then?   If everyone is going to take the best ship possible so that they can compete on equal terms, why not put a ceiling on what ships are available.  I wouldn't care, personally, if the admins chopped off all BCH and bigger ships from the shiplist.   But here again, there are some that like to fly those ships that have their own gravitational fields.  

Round and round we go.   Where we stop only Capt Jeff really knows.

[Hexx]

<shrug>

It is unfortunately an imperfect system,
It came about from listening to people complain that the elite pilots winged with each other using the best
"specialty" ships they could and therefore made it all but impossible for the PVP impaired pilots to kill them.

I talked to some of the elite pilots, and got the same answer from each of them
-They'd love to fly line ships , but while everyone else was flying specialty they had to fly specialty
or they'd be hurting they're team. (Yes this is oversimplification)

So the solution seemed to be to give the elite pilots a reason to fly the lineboats.

I strongly believe-for simplicity's sake if nothing else- that we need *one* ruleset that applies to everyone
Not some stupid "Well he's newb so he's out of the hex for 15 seconds, he's a kinda experienced players, so we'll let him back in in 20, oh he's some super elite, if he loses he's out of that hex for 2 hours"
Or some list with all the players name and PVP ranking that tells us how their PVP skill is..

Essentially (as I see it) it's a choice- either give the elite players a reason to stay out of the specialties- and apply the same restrcitions to other people- or don't and leave the elite players flying the specialty ships.

Really I'm good either way, I'd enjoy the former more -but that's a personal (don't really like CFs) and a racial thing-
Any of the other races really contribute a bit more to killer fleets than Lyran ships (arguable exception of STL)
Lyrans can-and certainly have - contributed, but there's always a sense that otehr aces would be better additions.

[762_XC]

Hexx that's a nice idea but it's simply not going to work. If I'm putting together an HK group I want the best combo possible and no amount of points incentive is ever going to change that.

A DNL and 2xCF is a better combo than a DNL and 2xCC. Not only that, once we start approaching 2280, the CC combo is nigh useless since all fights are done at speed 29-31.

You want to limit CF's in this scenario, you have two options:

1) Remove them totally
2) Fleeting restrictions

Even if they are assigned or limited, I'm still going to use them in the role where they are most effective, and that's escorting cap ships.

[Hexx]

Argh

Too many replies. And honestly you're turning what (in my mind anyway) was a very simple system into something hugely complicated.

Funny, that's what I thought you were doing.

~ First and foremost.
The idea that new or lesser skiiled pilots feel they hurt their team if they lose PVP is stupid.

I don't care if it's someone telling them that (which would be worse) or simply some personal feeling they have of costing their team points. Everyone costs their team points. And no one's going to really improve unless you throw yourself into PVP time and time again. If you really don't want to fly PVP because you don't like it-no problem. If you stay away from PVP fights beacause you're worried about costing your team-you're an idiot, fly the game, get blown up. It's what got me to where I am today  

Subtle Hexx, very subtle.    Stupid or not, I have heard those exact things expressed to me on more than one occasion.

~ Second

The original idea of this was to move the elite pilots out from the specialty ships and into the CC's.
This would serve to break up the killer fleet combos (ie 2CF and a droner in early/DNH + plasma PF tender later)
by giving the elite PVP pilots reason to fly the CC's.

This has 2 effects- as mentioned it breaks up the killer fleets. While a fleet with 3 ace pilots is still going to be tough opposition
It's not the same if a fleet has 2xCCh and a DNH as one that has DNH, plasma PF tender and a droner.

Some people seem hung on the idea that this deosn't really diminish the PVP pilot skill in 1v1's- (no it doesn't)
and want to work out some system where the new pilots are givne some bonus- let me put this out again-
the new pilots have to be willing to lose a ship, to watch how an enemy pilot kills them in order to improve.
I suppose if we wanted to we could have Dave script in a mission button that new players could press that instantly won them the mission and told them how great they were- but I'm not sure if that would teach them anything.

Some people like the concept of having their DNH plioted by their best pilot, escorted in the two best specialty ships they
can put their other top pilots into, and create a near unstoppable small fleet.
They won't like the idea either.

Ok. How about we try breaking up the hunter/killer fleets in a different way.  Or even with a combination of ideas.

(1) New fleeting rules - only CL or smaller ships can escort capital ships (speciality CLs too)

(2) Instead of hull restricted mosh pit, how about an area where no one can fly together, set up special rules for that area so as to encourage pilots to fly there; a 1v1 PvP haven, it might just bring back more open challenges

Want do you think about these ideas?

~3rd

People are going on about teh heavy metal-
None of this is to be taken to apply to the heavy metal.
Killing a DN is still killing a DN, and the metal would still (I assume) be controlled by point cost.

Agreed.

4th- "but I fly CF's (droners/whatver) this will mean I don't count"
No-it would mean you don't score PVP points, you can still flip hexes and push the enemy off the map if you win a pvp

A live PvP kill should always be worth something.   Sure, if you get your opponent to disengage, you have done just what you say.  I don't think we have ever been talking about awarding pts for disengagements.

It is not a perfect system- what it is is an easy to use system that rewards the better PVP pilots for staying out of the super ships of death they practically have to fly these days.

Why don't we just take these super death ships out of the shiplist then?   If everyone is going to take the best ship possible so that they can compete on equal terms, why not put a ceiling on what ships are available.  I wouldn't care, personally, if the admins chopped off all BCH and bigger ships from the shiplist.   But here again, there are some that like to fly those ships that have their own gravitational fields.  

Round and round we go.   Where we stop only Capt Jeff really knows.

~ I don't consider "You have to fly a line ship to score a PVP VP point" as a complicated rule
Opinions (of course) may vary

~ If you've had someone express to you that you're hurting your team by losing a ship I'd suggest you tell them to STFU or just post it in the forums. Hopefully they'll get roasted.
However I would consider you to be a better- so if it was directed at you maybe tehy were just joking?

~ I would love to see an area of 1v1 combats worth VP points on a server

~ The CL specialty ships are some of the problems , that being sai I think tehy're less of a problem than some of the CF's
    Really (as I mentioned in another part) mine was just an idea, I'm more than willing to fly howvwer it's decided

~ The only ships (honestly) I'd like to see outof the lists are the HDWs (but Chuut seems to like them... cheesey bastard)
   The idea was that anyone could fly what tehy wanted and liked to (up to metal of course) but that only some of them scored VP.s

[FPF-DieHard]

Hexx that's a nice idea but it's simply not going to work. If I'm putting together an HK group I want the best combo possible and no amount of points incentive is ever going to change that.

A DNL and 2xCF is a better combo than a DNL and 2xCC. Not only that, once we start approaching 2280, the CC combo is nigh useless since all fights are done at speed 29-31.

You want to limit CF's in this scenario, you have two options:

1) Remove them totally
2) Fleeting restrictions

Even if they are assigned or limited, I'm still going to use them in the role where they are most effective, and that's escorting cap ships.

Solution:   Count ALL Carriers and CFs as Capital ship in regards to Fleeting.  No more cheese fleets.

[762_XC]

When did we ever use a carrier in that role?