Topic: Storm Season III Disengagement Rule Poll

[Hexx]

Crim- I know how you feel   (Although I must admit, if you added up my lifetime prestige I've still got far less than some playeres get on one server I've been around awhile, I just don't play all that much..)

Lepton- I think the CC (and by extension CWL,DWL/whatver) are better balanced across the races in general from 63-75
True line Klink ships (for example) -the D7 is going to get slaughtered vs a Hydran hellbore ship with even a semi competent pilot at the helm unless the D7 captain is great. As mentioned I see a better match with a D7C vs a Fed CC+ than a D7 vc Fed CA
The early coalition line ships seemed to depend on numbers ratehr than quality- fine for a wargame but something we can't really approximate here.  Yes some will (as mentioned) be better than others but it's closer.

But some races likely won't be flying their line ships as much as others if the Command Varients are included, this will give a larger advantage to those races with very good command variants.  If I was a Rom I'd fly a Novahawk no problem, but if I were a Gorn would I fly a CC+?  The novahawk can perform so much better vs specialty ships and it really isn't a disadvantage at all to fly, I'd be flying it without the bonus for "line ships" applying to it.  If pilots would be flying those ships anyhow, what is the point of a bonus.  Same for a CWLP. I'd fly that one bonus or not.

No, I expect most pilots will move into the CC's/CWL's of their respective races, not the ideal perhaps, but (imo) better than them in teh CF's or droners they would have been in before. And while (I personally) agree with you on such ships as the CWLP - some players don't. (FSD seem to prefer the CF for some reason)
Some ships will have to be looked at as I mentioned-  the NHK should be stacked up agains the Gorn CCH , is it a match for it? IS the FHK a better match? The admin would have to decide.

Keeping in mind however that if this was also combined with the idea of keeping the bloody fleets fighting against the opponents they are supposed to fight it wouldn't be as much of an issue.

Really it comes down to what teh admin wants- for example I would honestly have no problem including the strike carriers
(D7V,NVS etc) in the "line" ship category. With proper fighter CnC they're not that big a deal until at least 77 and arguably 80.
But I'm more than willing to admit that other players simply see "carrier" and think "cheese". I don't agree with it, but can see how they might feel that way.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

No, I expect most pilots will move into the CC's/CWL's of their respective races, not the ideal perhaps, but (imo) better than them in teh CF's or droners they would have been in before. And while (I personally) agree with you on such ships as the CWLP - some players don't. (FSD seem to prefer the CF for some reason)
Some ships will have to be looked at as I mentioned-  the NHK should be stacked up agains the Gorn CCH , is it a match for it? IS the FHK a better match? The admin would have to decide.

For me the issue isn't so much the balance of the line ships vs each other as the balance of a vet in the "line ships" vs a newer or less PvP savy player.  The litmus test is simply would flying that ship as opposed to a specialty ship make it significantly more difficult for a vet to kill a newer player?  With the CWLP, Novahawk, CB, etc included in the "line ship" category the anser is not really.  If the command variants are excluded the answer would be yes in most cases.

[Dizzy]

 

[Hexx]

For me the issue isn't so much the balance of the line ships vs each other as the balance of a vet in the "line ships" vs a newer or less PvP savy player.  The litmus test is simply would flying that ship as opposed to a specialty ship make it significantly more difficult for a vet to kill a newer player?  With the CWLP, Novahawk, CB, etc included in the "line ship" category the anser is not really.  If the command variants are excluded the answer would be yes in most cases.

You're never going to balance the vet with a new player
A noob in a F-CF will likely die against a D7C with a vet
A noob in a F-CF will likely die against a D7  with a vet
A Vet in a FCC+ and a Vet in a D7C are (imo) fairly well balanced.
A Vet in a F-CA and a vet in a D7 are (imo) giving a large advantage to the player in teh Fed ship.

Fleeting is (arguably) where it might benefit
A Vet in a DN + 2 Vets in specialty ships are really only going to be challenged by the same
A Vet in a DN + 2 Vets in line ships (even the CC's) might be challenged by a Vet in a DN, a noob in a Cf and a noob in a droner.
maybe, maybe not.

Really ideally this moves the aces into the CC's, and then some of the new players follow.
Yes they'll still almost certianly lose, but (again imho) the CC's/CWL's etc are generally better places to learn how to fly
than jumping in a CF or a droner from day 1.

[Lepton]

I'd actually argue that the D7C is fairly dominant as it is available quite early and outclasses alot of what is avaiable at its time of introduction while you only see hellbore ships much later in around 2260.  The ships may be fairly balanced when they are all available but when they are not, one race will have some advantage.  Also you are losing me a bit with the carriers.  To me, that's a specialty ship.  It needs an escort.  Steve Cole says so.   

I agree with Chuut, I think.  Vanilla line ships let's call them (i.e. not CCs) level the playing field more for vets and less experienced players.  I think that is what he said.

OR

Are you saying when a vet is in a specialty ship including CCs in the line ships helps the less experienced player?  That I would also agree with that, yet I am looking at speciality ships at this point as something intended to run people off as opposed to killing them.  If PvP points only count for line ships, then vaporizing a noobie in X ship is no big accomplishment and garners you nothing except to force the player out of the hex for half as much time than if you had merely scared them out.  Boo!

[Hexx]

I'd actually argue that the D7C is fairly dominant as it is available quite early and outclasses alot of what is avaiable at its time of introduction while you only see hellbore ships much later in around 2260.  The ships may be fairly balanced when they are all available but when they are not, one race will have some advantage.  Also you are losing me a bit with the carriers.  To me, that's a specialty ship.  It needs an escort.  Steve Cole says so.   

I agree with Chuut, I think.  Vanilla line ships let's call them (i.e. not CCs) level the playing field more for vets and less experienced players.  I think that is what he said.

OR

Are you saying when a vet is in a specialty ship including CCs in the line ships helps the less experienced player?  That I would also agree with that, yet I am looking at speciality ships at this point as something intended to run people off as opposed to killing them.  If PvP points only count for line ships, then vaporizing a noobie in X ship is no big accomplishment and garners you nothing except to force the player out of the hex for half as much time than if you had merely scared them out.  Boo!

Must be one of those stinkin SFB types 

I base everything (more or less) on what's available from 63-75. This is (usually) the longest period on a server. By 75 the CB's are (arguably) better than some of the races specialty ships in any case. And game balance shifts towards the BCH's anyway.

I don't agree with Chuut- (sorta) yes putting a new player in a F-CC+ and having him go up against a vet in a D7 might be a tough fight for the vet (likely not though) The problem is that you know have one vet able to fly a F-CA and another stuck in a D7.

As for the running off bit- again that's beyond my control. No this system doesn't prevent DH or Duck from jumping in the biggest cheesiest ship there is and driving 20 noobs away from a planet hex laughing manically all the way.
This system only works if there are a fair number of map VC's and PVP points count for something.


And of course there would have to be a kill thread 

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

You're never going to balance the vet with a new player
A noob in a F-CF will likely die against a D7C with a vet
A noob in a F-CF will likely die against a D7  with a vet

But he may last longer, and not get as discouraged in the vanilla D7 fight.

A Vet in a FCC+ and a Vet in a D7C are (imo) fairly well balanced.
A Vet in a F-CA and a vet in a D7 are (imo) giving a large advantage to the player in teh Fed ship.

While that is true, when you factor in non traditional foes the balance is skewed at all levels Command cruiser as well as vanilla.  Also the D7 pilot might just decide to hop into a Gorn CA to fight the Fed more evenly, of couse the Fed pilot might then jump into an ISC CA.....etc...

[Lepton]

Here's my view on it.  Vets only in speciality and scary ships roughing people up and jousting is not great.  Vets will always stand a better chance then newbs other things being equal, so basically we are asking the vets to make it a fair fight if they want the PvP points.  Vet vs newb in equally matched ships? Vet should win.  No problem unless we have a newb prodigy and if he wins, more power to him.  This is basically all I am looking for.  A fairer fight.  If they are so good, let them prove it in a ship that requires skill rather than a big bank account.

Further, I would think that vets might be induced to prove their metal by flying PvP eligible ships instead of speciality ships, if they can not only use their skills to wins PvP points but also cause the other fellow to be subject to a hex banning by winning the engagement.  It's the best of both worlds if you can pull it off.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

When I think of flying a command variant and getting a bonus It doesn't make me hesitate, when I think about a vanilla ship to get the same bonus I do.  This makes me think vanilla is definately the way to go if you want the bonus  and better for the newer players.  Will any of the vets do it?  When you think of getting caught in one by another vet in a specialty or command variant it isn't too appealing.  That is the downside, and why you'd almost have to only allow vanilla ships to force disengagement or give pilots flying vanilla ships with only vanilla wings immunity from disengagement penalties to go along with the PvP point bonus.

[Hexx]

Unfortunately (as I see it) both of you are looking for a system that punishes (for lack of a better word- I don't think you're actually trying to punish them) a vet who wants to fly PVP. Yes it's important to help the newer players out, but we don't have alot of them and telling someone they've got to fly a ship with 7xPh2's is a bit harsh by my estimates.

If any admin wants to set a system up that extends the idea to this degree they're more than welcome to.
But I still maintain the idea of including the command variants will work well enough.
The CWLP (As an example) is a fantastic ship, but it's not a hex flipper as well as a combat ship (like the D5D)
or a chase ship for fleets( AS CF's tend to be)
The command variants (tend to) do one thing-PVP as opposed to the mutl roles offered by some of the other ships.

I'm also not sure Lepton- what you mean by benefitting players with big bank accounts- everything I've proposed is only intended to deal with stuff up to CA size hulls- really the difference between any of the ships is going to be about 1K tops, so about 2-3 missions.


As for the fair fight?_ It's not going to happen over the course of a server, -all joking aside about my PVP skillz, I'm not even close to one of the top pilots, but I've smacked new players in BCH's using a D5 or a CWLP, I've beaten Fed CC's with a DWLP, and I've crushed Lyran CC's with a (admittedly LDR) FF
And I'm sure that each of those could have been done easier and faster by any of the better players.

You make players better by having them show an ineterst in PVP, then by having them fly a CC/CA type ship
Sticking a Fed noob in a CF isn't (imo) going to teach them alot about power management, handing a Lyran noob a BCPP in 68 isn't going to help him develop anti-drone tactics.
Yes it would be better if we could put them in CA's- but some of those are just not fun to fly.
I know Chuut likes some of the old boats,but persoanlyl I can't stand running around in something like the D7.
The CC variants are (I'd hope) fun enough for everyone, yet don't have the "jack of all trades" ability some of the specialties do.

I have no intention of completely leveling the playing field between the elite player and one showing up for their first game.
At some point the newbie has to take on the challenge of becoming better at PVP (if they deisre) of their own iniative.
-I myself did this, I listened to all the jokes and comments, then went out, got out of the BCHs and fought battle after battle.
While I didn't arrive at elite status, I like to think I had become decent enough at one point that even the better players at least had to pay attention when flying against me. (Of course after a year or so of barely any PVP I suck again.. but oh well  )
 
Really all the system is intended to do is move the elite players (and hence the killer fleets) away from the specialty ships
and into the CC's. Hopefully some other players will follow them.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Here is an idea for consideration:

Why don't we add a "Newbie" rule, which would make anyone designating themselves as a "Newbie" immune from giving up PvP points to the other side and unaffected by a disengagement rule,  if destroyed flying anything other than a droner, carrier or tender.  However they would be unable to claim any PvP points uder the same conditions and could not force disengagement.

If flying with a wingman, "Newbie" or  Vet. the "Newbie Team" would only be worth 1/2 the PvP points (minimum of one) and could only claim 1/2 the PvP points for kills (also minimum of 1) and any forced disengagements would be of the 30 minute variety in such missions for either side regardless of whether they ran or were destroyed.

My thinking is this might help encourage the "Newbies" to engage in more PvP, mercy to be given more frequently in 1 v 1 matches with a "Newbie", and veterans more encouraged to wing up with "Newbies" even on the front.

The "Newbie" would have to designate themselves as such for the entire server.

What are your thoughts?

[762_XC]

Hexx squeaked:

At some point the newbie has to take on the challenge of becoming better at PVP (if they deisre) of their own iniative.

Thank you!

And there are more than a few vets willing to help them do this.

Chuut, my thoughts on that are no one would ever declare themselves a "newbie". It's a bit much to ask a player to step up and say "I suck, please give me special consideration".

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Another thought:

We could allow self-designated "Newbies" to take Command cruisers into the Cls and larger only areas.  It might lend itself to some good fights for them versus vets in smaller ships and it might also be fun for them to have the biggest ships on the block. 


If a "Newbie" gets 3 veteran kills in such a ship he would no longer be able to do so as he has been promoted.

And no Hexx you can't designate yourself a "Newbie" 

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Would the 1 point VC be for all kills?  If it was, this might discourage pilots from just kamikazing their ships at opponents so that they can stay in hex.  Also, my thought here is that if a hex is being fiercely fought over, all pilots should grab a better PvP ship before they enter the area.   You get caught trying to run missions under your opponent with a droner or small-drafting frigate you should pay the consequences.   Same 1 point VC for everyone, none of that hull size comparison crap! Or any other complicated PvP VC system.

I agree if you grab a droner and get caught you should pay the consequences, but I am strongly in favor of heavy metal being worth more PvP points for the very same reason, you want to get into that BCH or DN, you should also be willing to pay the consequences should you get blown up.  Whats good for the goose......

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Another thought:

What if instead of having a disengagement rule for all being the same we make one that is a bit different depending on what you are flying. 

Class #1 hex flippers  This includes droners, carriers, pf tenders, and basically any ship capable of running particularly fast missions time after time.

Class #2 heavy metal

Class # 3 everything else flown solo

Class #4 All ships with a wing

Class #1 gets a disengagement rule with a radius.  These ships run faster mission times and was one of the main reasons for the rule in the first place.  The entire area would be ruled as too dangerous for them.

Class #2  gets a disengagement of full duration but only for the hex of the actual mission.  No disengagement penalty if the heavy metal is lost, the loss of the ship is punishment enough.  Limited numbers of these ships were available and when forced to disengage wouldn't likely be risked again in the same hex anytime soon.

Class #3 One hex disengagement only and only for 1/2 the normal time if it ran away.  No disengagement penalty if it died. These ships were more plentiful and can't flip hexes as fast.

Class #4 All ships with a wing would be subject to a full disengagement penalty with radius but would be exempted from the disengagement penalty if they offered to fight a foe without a wing one at a time and this offer was accepted.  The winged team choosing the order in hich they were to engage.  A solo player accepting these terms must fight to the death, a memebr of the winged team may disengage if they can make it off the map.  The next memeber of the winged team may not start his participation in the battle until the previous battle is resolved and is at leat range 75 from the solo player.  During segments of the fight when a player is waiting for their turn they must power down their weapons and turn off any defensive systems which might interfere with the fight in progress.
-----------------------------

Pros

Keeps players in the hot areas more and encourages them to stay and fight more. It encourages more 1 v 1 fights, and one at a time fights when a numbers disparity has occurred.  Rewards players for not being in heavy metal or hexflippers on the front.

Cons

Not quite as simple as a One rule fits all

[Grim]

I was under the impression that a lot of players have got sick of the ridiculously large and complex rulesets that seem to come with a campaign nowadays? Seems to me that we have gone overboard with rules and took the fun out of the game for some people. I for one havent become a fan of the way recent server rules have been developed and implemented, prefered the simpler way of doing things.

But hey, maybe thats just me

[Dizzy]

...prefered the

Do tell the simplier way of doing things.

[Grim]

...prefered the

Do tell the simplier way of doing things.

You know my position on several things, OOB, disengagement rules etc, why discuss them to death again, especially when it looks like i am one of the few who dislikes the use of heavy rules that has crept into the game. I'm not going to waste my time posting a lot of possible rules when its clear that there is no chance of them ever being used, you think that some of the rule heavy OOB obsessed admins are going to use rules that were used in the past campaigns (talking about several years ago)? i think not. I tell it as i personally see it, i don't care if people disagree with me or not, its my opinion and i stick by it, everyone has their own opinion.

I gave my vote and my opinion as was asked by Jeff in terms of my view on disengagement, thats me done with this topic now.

[Riskyllama]

Alright I'm on about my third try of posting this. Stupid maintenace cycles.

Special rules single out new players, and addd to a rules thread. RMs should make sure new players feel welcome/protected, not the rules set. During week 1 of AOTK2, I only lost CA(W)s when I was flying alone.

Bubble disengagement works decent enough when terrain gives you a reference and teams are evenly sized. Small teams get hurt by this rule in my mind though.
 
No disengagemnt on death has drawbacks of the victorious player getting jumped by the person he killed as soon as he comes out of mission. 10-15 minutes allows for a mission or 2(plasma races, a couple more for a droner) to be done without fear of running into the player you just killed when you come out.
I voted for rule four, but would like to see at least some time on a kill, 10-15 minutes just means a bathroom/food/ship purchase break for the defeated party.

[Dizzy]

I gave my vote and my opinion as was asked by Jeff in terms of my view on disengagement, thats me done with this topic now.

Well jeez, sorry I asked YOU. I really wanted to hear it. For the next server Im planning I'd like to use only the fleeting rules and a smattering of others. Im not a rules fan either. Easy to get carried away doing it tho. There havent been many campaigns between SG servers Ive done and so Im a little rusty when it comes to knowing any other way to do things. So far everything ive read... skimmed over seems even more complicated than what I had. I seriously wanted to give the Mog rules a try... at least for a day. If a sh*t load of people showed up on mog day, hey that says something more than a poll, right?