Topic: Storm Season III Disengagement Rule Poll

[FPF-DieHard]

I'm not crazy about awarding VP's for non-metal and non-specialty ships. It's kind of n00b unfriendly.

Keep the same disengagement rule as SG6 but make line cruisers worth nothing. You will see more people sticking it out for PvP.

Specialty ships (fast cruisers, true carriers, droners) should always be worth a point.

Lol, the radius rule is noob unfriendly, yet I see no concern on that score.

I don't see how that affect n00bs more that others.  Everyone gets jumped and Chased out.

The noob is more likely to be in a line ship and more likely to be less skilled in general therefore he or she can only but be effected more in general.

This is why I'm liking Hexx's Idea more and more

[Lepton]

Let's cut through the BS.  You guys like to blow each other up, right?  Just do it in line ships.  PvP points to be award through a bounty system that people can opt in and out of and all battles must be fought in line ships.  All other PvP battles have no point values assigned to them.

[FPF-DieHard]

Let's cut through the BS.  You guys like to blow each other up, right?  Just do it in line ships.  PvP points to be award through a bounty system that people can opt in and out of and all battles must be fought in line ships.  All other PvP battles have no point values assigned to them.

Nothing would Please me more 

[Hexx]

Thanks Lepton, but honestly I think it was someone elses idea from a while ago that was kinda kicking around in my head.

(If I may theorize for a bit)

Basically the problem isn't one of getting players to fly the line ships. It's giving a reason to the "elite" PVPers to fly a line ship.
Points on specialty ships doesn't work, -as mentioned it simply sees them invested for the best return- ie giving them to the line pilots.
Counting VP's only on specialty ships doesn't work- it simply has the eiltes fly specialty ships to kill other players in specialty ships.

In both caes you have elite players in specialty ships who can really only be hunted down by other elite players in specialty ships.

So if you coax the elite players into line ships (and as I said- having talked to many of them it seems most would like to fly the line ships) by only awarding points for kills scored by line ships you accomplish 2 things.
-Newer players can fly line ships knowing that their ship will not be outclassed by the enemy's best pilots.
 These are the ships in which they will (hopefull) learn power management etc that will in turn let them become better pilots
-Or they can fly the specialties, they may not learn as much, but they will generally have a better ship than their opponent and can get some practice in PVP in. If they manage to kill an elite pilot, well tehy don't get any points, but they'll still have driven them off a hex for a bit, and bragging rights are better than kill points anyway.

[Hexx]

Let's cut through the BS.  You guys like to blow each other up, right?  Just do it in line ships.  PvP points to be award through a bounty system that people can opt in and out of and all battles must be fought in line ships.  All other PvP battles have no point values assigned to them.

As long as disengagement was kept would work..sorta

You'd encounter problems when you have (for example) 2 PVP enabled players fighting a PVP enabled players and two that aren't PVPers.
Do they just have to kill the one PVP player for the point? CAn the two non pvp players shield him? Cans the two non PVPer make suicide runs knowing if they die they're worth nothing, but if they hurt an enemy PVPers ship their ally can claim the points?

[FPF-DieHard]

I like this idea but how I mentioned Earlier, there has to be a reasonable cutoff as to what is a "line" ship regardless of "class."  AN NHK at 192 BPV or I-CAZ at 194 are examples of ships that are a bit much. 

PS.  Both will be availble to me on SS3 so I ain't race whoring

[Lepton]

As long as disengagement was kept would work..sorta

You'd encounter problems when you have (for example) 2 PVP enabled players fighting a PVP enabled players and two that aren't PVPers.
Do they just have to kill the one PVP player for the point? CAn the two non pvp players shield him? Cans the two non PVPer make suicide runs knowing if they die they're worth nothing, but if they hurt an enemy PVPers ship their ally can claim the points?

These are very good points I had not considered, and I have no good answer to them.  But, let me shoot back something at you.  If line ships are the only ones that count for PvP points, won't the less experienced players still be at a disadvantage as they are more likely to be in a line ship for longer and not be able to afford the exotic ships?  That is why I proposed a system that one could opt out of.  Disengagement rules would still apply to every PvP battle but points only awarded to those that opt to put their butts on the line.

People could still field capital ships but the penalty of the loss would merely be that one of that type could not be fielded for a period of time, but no PvP points pertain.  Thereby you can have the use of cap ships to effect holding territory by being imposing and driving people out but there is no inducement to the kind of PvP jousting we have seen previously in those ships as they are assets to be protected to effect the map, not effect PvP point totals.

[FPF-DieHard]

People could still field capital ships but the penalty of the loss would merely be that one of that type could not be fielded for a period of time, but no PvP points pertain.  Thereby you can have the use of cap ships to effect holding territory by being imposing and driving people out but there is no inducement to the kind of PvP jousting we have seen previously in those ships as they are assets to be protected to effect the map, not effect PvP point totals.

I like this.

[Hexx]

I like this idea but how I mentioned Earlier, there has to be a reasonable cutoff as to what is a "line" ship regardless of "class."  AN NHK at 192 BPV or I-CAZ at 194 are examples of ships that are a bit much. 

PS.  Both will be availble to me on SS3 so I ain't race whoring

Of course there would be some debate about what to use, and some ships will almost certainly be considered "misclassed" by some players
To me the Gorn CCH and Rom NHK seem to match up decently enough, but again I don't fly plasma, don't use plasma , so I'm not really qualified to say one way or the other. IF everyone agrees a FHK matches up better against a Gorn CCH, no problem, otehrwise it would be up to the admin. But yes, Rom and ISC would be special cases, and I believe (maybe) some of the Hydran ships would be reclassed as well.
(Why more people don't fly Hellbore ships I'll never know)

[Lepton]

I think if we are really trying to level the playing field and not merely posit some abstract notion of what a line ship is then we also really need to be talking about a BPV limit as well.  I would call a line ship as any standard class ship up to and including the BPV of a standard heavy cruiser.  A command cruiser is just that, a command cruiser. I would not consider it a line ship, but you guys are more equipped to hash out the details than I.

[Hexx]

These are very good points I had not considered, and I have no good answer to them.  But, let me shoot back something at you.  If line ships are the only ones that count for PvP points, won't the less experienced players still be at a disadvantage as they are more likely to be in a line ship for longer and not be able to afford the exotic ships?  That is why I proposed a system that one could opt out of.  Disengagement rules would still apply to every PvP battle but points only awarded to those that opt to put their butts on the line.

People could still field capital ships but the penalty of the loss would merely be that one of that type could not be fielded for a period of time, but no PvP points pertain.  Thereby you can have the use of cap ships to effect holding territory by being imposing and driving people out but there is no inducement to the kind of PvP jousting we have seen previously in those ships as they are assets to be protected to effect the map, not effect PvP point totals.

For your first point- not really (imo-completely depends on server design) if a FF costs 400 and a DF cost 600 its no biggie.
For most ships up to CA level the difference in price between specialty and lins is negligable, I think it was about 600 prestige difference between
a FHk and FFHk on SG06 (could be off), but even up to 1000 -that's only 3 missions.

My idea was actually to only impose the line ship stuff up to the heavy metal. I hadn't finished fleshing out the idea of how to make the cap ships work. I like your idea, but honestly there's something nagging me at the back of my brain that I see an exploit. (Or maybe it's a tumour, tell you tomorrow)  Anyway the original idea was to have the cap ships count as line ships for PVP- with teh exception that 1v1's wouldn't count if they were against a smaller ship, and that tehy would have to be escorted by line ships anyway.
Still you may be on to something about removing them from the PVP role alltogether..hmmm.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

I really like Hexx's idea, but a couple of questions remain for me.

#1 If you include Command variants you still have some of the best PvP ships in the mix.  Take the Novahawk, the Fed CB, the L-CWLP for example.  Perhaps command variants should be eliminated from the "line-ship" category.  Of course will "aces" be willing to fly "line ships" if they aren't among the best for PvP or will they go with the better ships trying to drive folkes from hexes instead of going for PvP points?  I'm guessing not many would go for the line ships if it put them at a significant PvP disavantage with the disengagement rule in effect.  

If you really want to encourage the line ships what needs to be done is to make only "line ships" force a disengagement as well, or perhaps make specialty ships only force 1/2 as long a penalty.  With the current game philosophy of forming "hunter/killer" teams to win control of hexes I really don't see the "aces" as willing to give up their specialty for their whole team for fear of being chased out of the area just on the chance they might earn a PvP point or two.  

I see alot of negetives to this approach of only "line ships" forcing disengagement as well.  

#2 some race's "line-ships" are more capable of getting a kill than other race's line ships.  Crunch power, fighters, drones, power curb, etc. all come into play.  Defining what exactly is a "line ship" is a very tricky business, for example are "heavy War destroyers "line ships"?  By late era most ships just simply don't likely qualify for one reason or another. Not sure there is anyway around this as it also applies to specialty ships and is likely just a racial feature.

What would I do?

Likely go with Hexes rule for most of the map with the addition of only "line ships" being able to force disengagement.  However,once you get to withinin 1 hex of a base or planet have all ships able to force disengagement and all ships kills count.  I don't think the vets will short-change their asenals so close to a VC area in the name of PvP points anyhow, and the vets need some good fights with high stakes.   This will keep the really hot zones dangerous but allow for more new player friendly areas for large parts of the map.

I really like some aspects of Hexx's system.  Under it there is no reason to not offer mercy to a new player if you are flying a specialty ship, he/she isn't worth any points.  It might provide opportunities for them to learn better power management as hex pointed out while flying the "line ships", and it might encourage vets to fly line ships so that a newer player in a specialty ship can offer a more challanging fight to them and also gain more PvP experience to the newer player.

[Hexx]

I think if we are really trying to level the playing field and not merely posit some abstract notion of what a line ship is then we also really need to be talking about a BPV limit as well.  I would call a line ship as any standard class ship up to and including the BPV of a standard heavy cruiser.  A command cruiser is just that, a command cruiser. I would not consider it a line ship, but you guys are more equipped to hash out the details than I.

I'm really going to simply have to wait for posts and just update ever 2 hours  

I include CC's as line ships for the basic reason that (imo) the CWL's/CC's/CCH's match up far better across the races than teh CW's/CA's do.
I'd argue the D7C/Fed CC+/Lyran CC+ etc are far more evenly balanced against each other than their respective line ships are.

[Hexx]

I really like Hexx's idea, but a couple of questions remain for me.

#1 If you include Command variants you still have some of the best PvP ships in the mix.  Take the Novahawk, the Fed CB, the L-CWLP for example.  Perhaps command variants should be eliminated from the "line-ship" category.  Of course will "aces" be willing to fly "line ships" if they aren't among the best for PvP or will they go with the better ships trying to drive folkes from hexes instead of going for PvP points?  I'm guessing not many would go for the line ships if it put them at a significant PvP disavantage with the disengagement rule in effect.  

If you really want to encourage the line ships what needs to be done is to make only "line ships" force a disengagement as well, or perhaps make specialty ships only force 1/2 as long a penalty.  With the current game philosophy of forming "hunter/killer" teams to win control of hexes I really don't see the "aces" as willing to give up their specialty for their whole team for fear of being chased out of the area just on the chance they might earn a PvP point or two.  

I see alot of negetives to this approach of only "line ships" forcing disengagement as well.  

#2 some race's "line-ships" are more capable of getting a kill than other race's line ships.  Crunch power, fighters, drones, power curb, etc. all come into play.  Defining what exactly is a "line ship" is a very tricky business, for example are "heavy War destroyers "line ships"?  By late era most ships just simply don't likely qualify for one reason or another. Not sure there is anyway around this as it also applies to specialty ships and is likely just a racial feature.

What would I do?

Likely go with Hexes rule for most of the map with the addition of only "line ships" being able to force disengagement.  However,once you get to withinin 1 hex of a base or planet have all ships able to force disengagement and all ships kills count.  I don't think the vets will short-change their asenals so close to a VC area in the name of PvP points anyhow, and the vets need some good fights with high stakes.   This will keep the really hot zones dangerous but allow for more new player friendly areas for large parts of the map.

I really like some aspects of Hexx's system.  Under it there is no reason to not offer mercy to a new player if you are flying a specialty ship, he/she isn't worth any points.  It might provide opportunities for them to learn better power management as hex pointed out while flying the "line ships", and it might encourage vets to fly line ships so that a newer player in a specialty ship can offer a more challanging fight to them and also gain more PvP experience to the newer player.

First- you can't (imho) "balance" line and/or specialty ships after 2280ish, Personally I'd love to see the HDW's go away forever, but some people seem to like them.
Second- Yes, there will be a (somewhat) predictable pattern of the PVP pilots choosing whatver the best command variant is for their race.
Again though- it would be the same if you eliminated the command variants, you'd simply have PVP pilots choosing the best CA's of their race, and
(again imo) the CC's match up far better across the races than the CA's. Yes some (fed CB, R-NHK if it's included) will be better than others
There isn't any way around that short of giving everyone the same ship.

And I'd disagree with you strongly on teh PVP effect- of course it all depends on VP conditions and how PVP points are worked into them
Make it worth peoples time to fly PVP and score points and they'll do it.
Have a map with 3 VC hexes- no it won't work, driving people off will be much more valuable. Have a map with 30 VC hexes and it will work just fine.

[KBF-Crim]

"One man's cheese, is another man's only hope for survival"  KBF-Crim

Only if you're opponent has Cheese, otherwise all you need is practice

Dude...I'll admit it....after almost 7 years of playing this game...I'm a mediocure player at best...I can barely beat the AI in a line ship...

Straight up....if practice where the answer...I'd be a frickin ace by now.......oh sure I like to play....hell...I love this game......but I stopped deluding myself a year or two ago....

[Lepton]

Hexx,

Do you think that line ships below the CC class are not balanced in general or not balanced because there is a change over time when a better ship in a particular class is available for a particular race?  If the latter, then I think that is just the breaks.  Sometimes a race will simply have the best ship out there in a particular class for a particular stardate. Not much to be done about it expect make some very artifical alterations to YFAs.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

First- you can't (imho) "balance" line and/or specialty ships after 2280ish, Personally I'd love to see the HDW's go away forever, but some people seem to like them.

Keep your grubby little paws off my HDWs  

Second- Yes, there will be a (somewhat) predictable pattern of the PVP pilots choosing whatver the best command variant is for their race.
Again though- it would be the same if you eliminated the command variants, you'd simply have PVP pilots choosing the best CA's of their race, and
(again imo) the CC's match up far better across the races than the CA's. Yes some (fed CB, R-NHK if it's included) will be better than others
There isn't any way around that short of giving everyone the same ship.

But some races likely won't be flying their line ships as much as others if the Command Varients are included, this will give a larger advantage to those races with very good command variants.  If I was a Rom I'd fly a Novahawk no problem, but if I were a Gorn would I fly a CC+?  The novahawk can perform so much better vs specialty ships and it really isn't a disadvantage at all to fly, I'd be flying it without the bonus for "line ships" applying to it.  If pilots would be flying those ships anyhow, what is the point of a bonus.  Same for a CWLP. I'd fly that one bonus or not.  Allowing vets in Novahawks and CWLP's to collect PvP points wont do too much to protect new players in PvP.

And I'd disagree with you strongly on teh PVP effect- of course it all depends on VP conditions and how PVP points are worked into them
Make it worth peoples time to fly PVP and score points and they'll do it.
Have a map with 3 VC hexes- no it won't work, driving people off will be much more valuable. Have a map with 30 VC hexes and it will work just fine.

I do agree with that it largely depends on the number of VCs, their importance in regards to each other, the importance of PvP VCs in general and the map size.

[Dfly]

I also like Hexx's Ideas on this.

One note, I have always offered mercy to newer players when their ship is totaled, but still alive.  Some take it, others tell me to finish it.  I give them the choice when I can.  Experienced pilots, or nutters, no need for mercy.

[IAF Lyrkiller]

"One man's cheese, is another man's only hope for survival"  KBF-Crim

Only if you're opponent has Cheese, otherwise all you need is practice

Dude...I'll admit it....after almost 7 years of playing this game...I'm a mediocure player at best...I can barely beat the AI in a line ship...

Straight up....if practice where the answer...I'd be a frickin ace by now.......oh sure I like to play....hell...I love this game......but I stopped deluding myself a year or two ago....

The same here Crim, I am an ace, but I dont go looking for trouble, it finds me.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

but I dont go looking for trouble, it finds me.

Hey you get within t-bomb range and you travel at your own peril