Topic: The official SGO6 feedback thread

[Lepton]

I was going to tackle a larger set of issues (i.e. b**ch about stuff), but I lost my steam and this will have to do for now.

First while the number and kind of ships available has been improving and it gives the player alot of choices, it also gives a player alot of not so good choices and missions that spontaneously draft three light PF tenders all with fast drone carrying PFs that your AI wingmen are too feeble to counter.  Unintended consequences would be the word here.  I'd rather see a significantly trimmed down shiplist that will provide good ships in the yard and a more constrained drafting pool if that is possible to accomplish.

Further, the shiplist led to a furtherance of what I think is bad on any dyna server, the race to the higher and better technology.  It seemed to me that, while one might accomplish hex-flipping missions in any decent ship of your choosing, the PvP environment was one of who can field the most cheese in the cheesiest combo possible.  It would not merely be enough to have an X ship and a heavy cruiser but damnit it has to be an X ship winging with another race that can balance out some element of that it lacks in its racial flavor.  What is the point of racial flavor if you can field a combo that essentially erases those distinctions or lessens them significantly?  We have a saying in another game I play.  It's the pilot, not the ship, but to some extent that can hardly be believed at the wrangling and girlish screams that emanated from players who did not find exactly the right ship in the yard or in their many player accounts to combat the perceived threat that an enemy combo presented.  Infinite options do not always lead to infinite diversity but merely to the squeamishness of flying anything that is not the best.

Additionally, the technology ladder left I think many a causal player relegated to the sidelines where PvP was involved.  I myself will not take the responsibility to field a capital ship as first I could hardly afford to do so and second I have neither the skill nor the hubris to fly one when its loss would effect my team in a negative fashion.  While I am sure that it provides a diverse experience for the regular players with oodles of PP, I think it leaves a bit to be desired for those players who'd like to scrap it up but find they have neither the chops nor the bucks to do so when the only PvP is being conducted in the main by those jousting with the high end ships.  And frankly there is a venue for such things.  It's GSA.  You can fly whatever tricked out combo you want and it will be equally as meaningless there as it was to me on this server.  I realize this was probably somewhat of an enjoyable rarity for folks to fly these interesting combos but I feel as if it robs the whole enterprise of the experience of the racial flavor of ships and smacks of the merely ad-hoc jockeying for the upperhand which I don't find exceedingly sportsmanlike.

I am sure there will be many that will disagree with my perceptions and you are welcome to, but I would enjoin you to consider that your experience of the server may not be consistent with others' experience of the server and you might do well to consider that before dismissing my arguements.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

My major criticism would be that there were too many missions vs ai with multiple ships, this wasn't kind to non-aces and wasn't so fun for vets either.

Additionally I think that having all the patrols have the same mission names was good, but Planetary and base assaults should have their own names as the target of the mission would be known and they aren't really patrols.

Also, I think having the Orion base in some patrols was kinda unneeded.

Also freighter ai help on the patrols where you get control of an ai ship is kinda silly.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

On the positive side the big map, VC conditions and most of the fleeting rules were damn good.

The planetary assault missions were good too, making it very difficult for a solo droner to pull them off alone.

[Hexx]

While I thoroughly enjoyed what time I managed to spend on the server, I did have to forgo much of the PVP I usually
look for (mike apparently sounded awful, so no one would have been able to understand me)
But many of your points have been raised for pretty much all of the servers we've had recently

I am personally getting tired of the multi-racial fleets that seem to be being used, although this server did seem to see less of that than some others. I would like to see a system (as mentioned in a certain poll) that limits (for example) Gorn ships to areas surrounding the Gorn empire, not wherever they need be. I also think this would help immensely with the balance issues
~ no need to fix Kzin ships (again for example) to be able to fight plasma if they don't have to fight plasma...

The specialty (and X) ships are another bit of an issue. I'd like to see a server where only PVP kills scored in "line ships" count
The problem is what to count, I *personally* would include such things as strike carriers, but not droners and definitely not CF'si
But I must admit that's my personal bias, -I don't see the Strike Cruisers as overpowered as the droners/CF's are.

AS for the map issue- I didn't like the big map, but am more than willing to admit that some people do (as Chuut obviously does) and really I can get by with it.
The HUGE number of nebulas in and around Lyran space were just wrong though.
And i thought the fleeting rules were fairly well done, I think a few improvements could have been made, but blame myself for not explaining the errors to Dizzy before the server 

Still- had a great time, looking forward to #7
And I would include the Command variants with the "line cruiser" , again (imo) the balance across the races in Command variants is better than that of the true "line" ships.

[FPF-DieHard]

I'm just going to comment on the map for now.   I liked the huge map.   It was good in the way that even though the Alliance dominated the early part of the server we really only put a dents in the Coalition.

The terrain was poorly placed, there should be next to no Nebulas in Lyran or Hydran space.   Think about it, if they had that much nebula they would have designed weapons that would work in a nebula   

[el-Karnak]

I'm just going to comment on the map for now.   I liked the huge map.   It was good in the way that even though the Alliance dominated the early part of the server we really only put a dents in the Coalition.

The terrain was poorly placed, there should be next to no Nebulas in Lyran or Hydran space.   Think about it, if they had that much nebula they would have designed weapons that would work in a nebula   

Too many asteroid hexes too. It was like the Death Star went on a planet-busting party all over the map leaving voluminous rubble in its wake. 

[762_XC]

The map was excellent! I loved the layout, it produced a lot of strategy. Lots of different considerations when planning ops.

I actually liked that fact that embassy bases were relatively scarce. It forced some real hard decisions as to where to work. Lack of Klingon supply in the 42,10 area was a real key for both sides.

I thought the large map in conjunction with the radius rule worked beautifully! It was so nice being able to plan a defensive strategy based on PvP instead of avoiding PvP. Both PvP and hex munching had a large role on this server.

The one downside of the large map is that much of the server early on had the Alliance and Coalition working in different areas. Once we starting meeting head on (particularly the last day of the first round) the PvP action was fast and furious, and it mattered. Truly awesome.

[FPF-DieHard]

I'm just going to comment on the map for now.   I liked the huge map.   It was good in the way that even though the Alliance dominated the early part of the server we really only put a dents in the Coalition.

The terrain was poorly placed, there should be next to no Nebulas in Lyran or Hydran space.   Think about it, if they had that much nebula they would have designed weapons that would work in a nebula   

Too many asteroid hexes too. It was like the Death Star went on a planet-busting party all over the map leaving voluminous rubble in its wake. 

It must have been the Doomsday machines that showed up in evey other mission

[KBF MalaK]

On the positive side the big map, VC conditions and most of the fleeting rules were damn good.

The planetary assault missions were good too, making it very difficult for a solo droner to pull them off alone.

It was the one with the 2 battlestations that was killer (in the pit). The briefing was capture the planet, but even after capping the planet and leaving the 2 stations (firing on the planet) and leaving the map, the mission was loss.

Also in the pit, on numerous occasions I drew multiple BCH's as enemies- kinda rough in a .67 CL, don't ya think ?

[Lepton]

I really did not like the radius 1 ban rule.  It may provide a strategic use of PvP, but I think it was a bit on the draconian side for those of us who just happened to stumble upon someone while running solo missions and who just happened to be outgunned by his or her opponent.  You might say, "Well, yes this is exactly as it was intended" but I think not.  My recollection of the heavy iron plus hex ban idea was that heavy iron would lead the way to clear out a hex so that flippers could run under it, but I don't really think that happened on this server.  Iron was used for jousting to gain PvP points, not in the strategic way that others suppose.  I frankly witnessed more hand wringing and waiting around to jump someone than the use of the iron to clear the way for other ships.

I could be wrong in that assessment but it was not my impression that the iron was being used to clear the way for flippers.  It might be an occasional benefit when these PvP battles occurred but more often than not the hex was to be kept clear especially if the intent was to jump the enemy coming out of a PvP mission.  That seems to me to run counter to what we had intended.  Perhaps that is not we intended but that was my impression.  I merely saw the 1 hex radius ban as a punishment for losing a PvP battle and not as a strategic element in and of itself.

[Capt_Bearslayer_XC]

LOL... one mission, can't remember the ship I had for it but I was flying Hydran at the time (I think it was a H-OVh)... drew 3 Rom HC with 2-4 pf's each.... to add to the insanity, the 3rd team in the middle had 2 ships, 1 with 8 fighters and the other with 2 pf's..... my 'reinforcement for that one was a freighter to go along with an AI Hydran LN & AI Kzinti FH....

[762_XC]

I really did not like the radius 1 ban rule.  It may provide a strategic use of PvP, but I think it was a bit on the draconian side for those of us who just happened to stumble upon someone while running solo missions and who just happened to be outgunned by his or her opponent.  You might say, "Well, yes this is exactly as it was intended" but I think not.  My recollection of the heavy iron plus hex ban idea was that heavy iron would lead the way to clear out a hex so that flippers could run under it, but I don't really think that happened on this server.  Iron was used for jousting to gain PvP points, not in the strategic way that others suppose.  I frankly witnessed more hand wringing and waiting around to jump someone than the use of the iron to clear the way for other ships.

I could be wrong in that assessment but it was not my impression that the iron was being used to clear the way for flippers.  It might be an occasional benefit when these PvP battles occurred but more often than not the hex was to be kept clear especially if the intent was to jump the enemy coming out of a PvP mission.  That seems to me to run counter to what we had intended.  Perhaps that is not we intended but that was my impression.  I merely saw the 1 hex radius ban as a punishment for losing a PvP battle and not as a strategic element in and of itself.

What you describe is one possible way that it could be used, but not the only way. Combat, whether with armies or starships, is about controlling territory. The radius rule gives you the ability to do that. Without the radius PvP becomes almost worthless as a means of controlling territory, because to have any real effect on the front you would have to run someone out of 3, 4 or 5 hexes. Since this is fairly impossible to do forming PvP groups was pretty much a waste of time. Players would do it just for bragging rights or points, but its strategic impact was almost nil.

Sometimes forcing an enemy group out of an area is all you need to give the flippers the freedom to do their job.

The radius rule adds a strategic component to PvP and makes it a valuable complement to hex flipping. If it seems draconian, it merely underscores the necessity of working in tandem with your teammates.

[KBFLordKrueg]

My major criticism would be that there were too many missions vs ai with multiple ships, this wasn't kind to non-aces and wasn't so fun for vets either.

Additionally I think that having all the patrols have the same mission names was good, but Planetary and base assaults should have their own names as the target of the mission would be known and they aren't really patrols.

Also, I think having the Orion base in some patrols was kinda unneeded.

Also freighter ai help on the patrols where you get control of an ai ship is kinda silly.

I agree on all of these points for sure.
The multi-AI missions were fun and challenging, but there was like 95% those type missions only.
And strongly agree about the Base and Planet mission names showing.

[KBFLordKrueg]

IMOHPO, I think the 1 hex radius ban should be limited to planets and maybe bases as well.

[Lepton]

I really did not like the radius 1 ban rule.  It may provide a strategic use of PvP, but I think it was a bit on the draconian side for those of us who just happened to stumble upon someone while running solo missions and who just happened to be outgunned by his or her opponent.  You might say, "Well, yes this is exactly as it was intended" but I think not.  My recollection of the heavy iron plus hex ban idea was that heavy iron would lead the way to clear out a hex so that flippers could run under it, but I don't really think that happened on this server.  Iron was used for jousting to gain PvP points, not in the strategic way that others suppose.  I frankly witnessed more hand wringing and waiting around to jump someone than the use of the iron to clear the way for other ships.

I could be wrong in that assessment but it was not my impression that the iron was being used to clear the way for flippers.  It might be an occasional benefit when these PvP battles occurred but more often than not the hex was to be kept clear especially if the intent was to jump the enemy coming out of a PvP mission.  That seems to me to run counter to what we had intended.  Perhaps that is not we intended but that was my impression.  I merely saw the 1 hex radius ban as a punishment for losing a PvP battle and not as a strategic element in and of itself.

What you describe is one possible way that it could be used, but not the only way. Combat, whether with armies or starships, is about controlling territory. The radius rule gives you the ability to do that. Without the radius PvP becomes almost worthless as a means of controlling territory, because to have any real effect on the front you would have to run someone out of 3, 4 or 5 hexes. Since this is fairly impossible to do forming PvP groups was pretty much a waste of time. Players would do it just for bragging rights or points, but its strategic impact was almost nil.

Sometimes forcing an enemy group out of an area is all you need to give the flippers the freedom to do their job.

The radius rule adds a strategic component to PvP and makes it a valuable complement to hex flipping. If it seems draconian, it merely underscores the necessity of working in tandem with your teammates.

I am sorry but you are clearly mistaken.  The effect of the radius rule was not as you described.  It most often effected in my estimation only those who were jousting with capital ships for PvP points.  You yourself would seem to support that assertion since you would seem to claim that iron was not often used in the manner that it was intended, namely to clear hexes for flippers.  When it did effect flippers, the effect was such that it made the person have to effectively operate in another theater, but this was hardly the case, except perhaps for Coalition push to take Johnny Targ, but in all other instances I saw nothing of the effect you would claim that PvP and the radius rule had.  It may have effected you as you were one of the jousters, but in general the effect on flippers was less than it could have been had the capital ships been deployed in the manner you suggested, to control territory.  I saw none of that.  In fact capital ships languished on the front lines waiting to jump other capital ships instead on running off the squirts which would really be controlling territory.  So frankly I have no idea what you think controlling territory with PvP was on this server, but I saw little of it.

[Hexx]

I really did not like the radius 1 ban rule.  It may provide a strategic use of PvP, but I think it was a bit on the draconian side for those of us who just happened to stumble upon someone while running solo missions and who just happened to be outgunned by his or her opponent.  You might say, "Well, yes this is exactly as it was intended" but I think not.  My recollection of the heavy iron plus hex ban idea was that heavy iron would lead the way to clear out a hex so that flippers could run under it, but I don't really think that happened on this server.  Iron was used for jousting to gain PvP points, not in the strategic way that others suppose.  I frankly witnessed more hand wringing and waiting around to jump someone than the use of the iron to clear the way for other ships.

I could be wrong in that assessment but it was not my impression that the iron was being used to clear the way for flippers.  It might be an occasional benefit when these PvP battles occurred but more often than not the hex was to be kept clear especially if the intent was to jump the enemy coming out of a PvP mission.  That seems to me to run counter to what we had intended.  Perhaps that is not we intended but that was my impression.  I merely saw the 1 hex radius ban as a punishment for losing a PvP battle and not as a strategic element in and of itself.

What you describe is one possible way that it could be used, but not the only way. Combat, whether with armies or starships, is about controlling territory. The radius rule gives you the ability to do that. Without the radius PvP becomes almost worthless as a means of controlling territory, because to have any real effect on the front you would have to run someone out of 3, 4 or 5 hexes. Since this is fairly impossible to do forming PvP groups was pretty much a waste of time. Players would do it just for bragging rights or points, but its strategic impact was almost nil.

Sometimes forcing an enemy group out of an area is all you need to give the flippers the freedom to do their job.

The radius rule adds a strategic component to PvP and makes it a valuable complement to hex flipping. If it seems draconian, it merely underscores the necessity of working in tandem with your teammates.

I am sorry but you are clearly mistaken.  The effect of the radius rule was not as you described.  It most often effected in my estimation only those who were jousting with capital ships for PvP points.  You yourself would seem to support that assertion since you would seem to claim that iron was not often used in the manner that it was intended, namely to clear hexes for flippers.  When it did effect flippers, the effect was such that it made the person have to effectively operate in another theater, but this was hardly the case, except perhaps for Coalition push to take Johnny Targ, but in all other instances I saw nothing of the effect you would claim that PvP and the radius rule had.  It may have effected you as you were one of the jousters, but in general the effect on flippers was less than it could have been had the capital ships been deployed in the manner you suggested, to control territory.  I saw none of that.  In fact capital ships languished on the front lines waiting to jump other capital ships instead on running off the squirts which would really be controlling territory.  So frankly I have no idea what you think controlling territory with PvP was on this server, but I saw little of it.

It's one of t00ls babies, just let him run with it 
(kinda like my full SFB fighter groups except mine never get used  )

[FPF-DieHard]

I find it kinda un-sportmanliek to jump a dude in a CL in a 3-ship PvP fleet but Lepton is right, that is the correct way to "control" territory using the rules set.

[FPF-DieHard]

(kinda like my full SFB fighter groups except mine never get used  )

When did Hexx become a Fighter Whore? 

Yes, we can do this, cutting the Deck crews on Full cariers makes this reasonable but is it really a wise idea? 

[Lepton]

It is unsportsmanlike but that is the consequence of capital ships and the disengagement rule combined.  Thou hast wrought what thou hast sown.

[FPF-DieHard]

It is unsportsmanlike but that is the consequence of capital ships and the disengagement rule combined.  Thou hast wrought what thou hast sown.

I know, but is it better to have PvP have no effect on the Map?