Topic: The way the dynaverse should really work...

[Dizzy]

Back in the day when I played a campaign all nutter like, I'd wake up, do some coffee, and log on to the server. Do a buncha right clicking... find out where the enemy was, what they'd been doing all night...What the DV's were... Lotsa scrolling lotsa right clicking. Finally I'd decide where to go on the front. That usually required logging off the server, switching races and then waiting and waiting and waiting for a hex flipping ship if no one was online, or waiting for a pvp ship if players were around to hunt... and I'd just wait wait till I saw it in the yards... Then I'd have to travel all around the map to get where I wanted before I finally got a game going... a LOT of time had slipped away. Not anymore.

Imagine logging on with your online dynaverse account to the online campaign interface. At the touch of a few buttons you have full strategic awarness of the map: Front lines, DV's, all that with more tools to filter and search to get the most of the webmap. Now you know where you need to go and with what. So you click another button and you now get to change your race, your ship and your location on the map. All without having to login to the server. But when you do login, you are right where you want to be... with the race and ship you want... armed with all the knowledge of where you need to go. Only thing left is to take a mission.

THAT is how I want my experience to be like. And hopefully I'll get to do that this next server as will you all. Just wanted to share that. 

[Rolling]

Cool.

You sure are putting in a lot of time to insure an optimal gaming experience.

Thank you.

[Dizzy]

I just think it. I delegate the actual work to my peers. Im a lazy innovator. Actually, whenever you see bonk post, just keep giving him positive karma. He is a machine.

[C-Los]

Yes Indeed, it is a "Wonderful Thing" and Bonk has worked his fingers and more I'm sure to the bone to get it done.

Sir Bonk ... <S>   


Now if we could just stop all the finite rules, and play the game for fun again ..... I would be truly happy !!

Just my 2 cents !     I bid everyone a Good Day .... 

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Back in the day when I played a campaign all nutter like, I'd wake up, do some coffee, and log on to the server. Do a buncha right clicking... find out where the enemy was, what they'd been doing all night...What the DV's were... Lotsa scrolling lotsa right clicking. Finally I'd decide where to go on the front. That usually required logging off the server, switching races and then waiting and waiting and waiting for a hex flipping ship if no one was online, or waiting for a pvp ship if players were around to hunt... and I'd just wait wait till I saw it in the yards... Then I'd have to travel all around the map to get where I wanted before I finally got a game going... a LOT of time had slipped away. Not anymore.

Imagine logging on with your online dynaverse account to the online campaign interface. At the touch of a few buttons you have full strategic awarness of the map: Front lines, DV's, all that with more tools to filter and search to get the most of the webmap. Now you know where you need to go and with what. So you click another button and you now get to change your race, your ship and your location on the map. All without having to login to the server. But when you do login, you are right where you want to be... with the race and ship you want... armed with all the knowledge of where you need to go. Only thing left is to take a mission.

THAT is how I want my experience to be like. And hopefully I'll get to do that this next server as will you all. Just wanted to share that. 

<sigh>  I might be alone here but that approach would take away much joy for me.  I equate it to clicking the mission accept button and having combat determined for combat automatically.  It isn't quite that bad but it is getting there in my opinion.

I prefer having to use my brain to determine where to go, what to fly, what to look at on the map and in the news, and where to strike and with what ship.  Some folkes excell in pvp, others have excelled in being able to formulate strategy and respond quickly and efficiently to a changing strategic map. 

For example, I know when Lord Kreug is on I have to change my plans as I know he is strategically savy and will react quickly to my moves and lead others to counteract them as well.  If anyone could do a few clicks and see everything, his talant is minimized to a degree.  I'm not a big fan of webmaps for the same reason although they are ok if not too detailed.  It only makes sense that you could see ownership of hexes,  but you shouldn't be able to see enemy bases behind the lines or pilot positions. 

I perfer a thinking mans game strategically as well as tactically and suggest that any "innovations" not be used without considerations of there potential negative effects.

P.S.  A full strategic awareness is really pretty much available with a few clicks already (although the scroll bug can be a pain occassionally) if you know how the right clicks to make.  This is one of the key aspects of  what the great strategist, having the skill to know which clicks to make.

[SkyFlyer]

but you shouldn't be able to see enemy bases behind the lines or pilot positions. 

I agree... However I think bases or pilots within 3 hexes of an enemy territories area should be able to be seen.

[KBF-Crim]

Now...if you could intergrate RM/ARM comunications into that as well...

When you log in , if there are new orders, important news etc....a window would open like a PM notice....

This would save a ton of checking the racial forums

[762_XC]

I'm kind of with Chuut here re: making it too easy. I would be concerned if it were a situation like LB5, with destructable bases that were visible on a webmap (God that was funny).

But I will reserve judgement until I see the interface and exactly how much detail is given.

[Dizzy]

<sigh>  I might be alone here but that approach would take away much joy for me.  I equate it to clicking the mission accept button and having combat determined for combat automatically.  It isn't quite that bad but it is getting there in my opinion.

I prefer having to use my brain to determine where to go, what to fly, what to look at on the map and in the news, and where to strike and with what ship.  Some folkes excell in pvp, others have excelled in being able to formulate strategy and respond quickly and efficiently to a changing strategic map. 

For example, I know when Lord Kreug is on I have to change my plans as I know he is strategically savy and will react quickly to my moves and lead others to counteract them as well.  If anyone could do a few clicks and see everything, his talant is minimized to a degree.  I'm not a big fan of webmaps for the same reason although they are ok if not too detailed.  It only makes sense that you could see ownership of hexes,  but you shouldn't be able to see enemy bases behind the lines or pilot positions. 

I perfer a thinking mans game strategically as well as tactically and suggest that any "innovations" not be used without considerations of there potential negative effects.

P.S.  A full strategic awareness is really pretty much available with a few clicks already (although the scroll bug can be a pain occassionally) if you know how the right clicks to make.  This is one of the key aspects of  what the great strategist, having the skill to know which clicks to make.

???

A thinking man's game it is. Why would I want to take away from it? I already stated (EDIT: destructible) bases will not be viewable on the webmap. But I never said anything about the location of a player. Personally I dont like this feature and agree with you. I may have it disabled. But everything you do on the webmap you are already able to do in game. The webmap just makes it easier, faster and combines your webyard and race choices in one easy interface. What is it taking away???

[Dizzy]

Now...if you could intergrate RM/ARM comunications into that as well...

When you log in , if there are new orders, important news etc....a window would open like a PM notice....

This would save a ton of checking the racial forums

Ya but you run the risk of replacing the racial forums. IMO that is where things all come together. Some players dont use TS or VT so the racial forums are where all the interaction and planning is for them.

I'd overstep my bounds telling you it wont happen. If the players or A/RM's are all for it, then sure. My initial reaction is that im not feeling it tho.

However, A/RM features will be present, although not in a form of a message system afaik. A/RM features are planned to include the ability to edit their sides player info like prestige, ship, race and location on the map. But your idea is good... I see links on the OCI page to the racial forums and your voice channels. Basically... this page is a one stop shop that gives you all the tools you need for this game save logging into the server and running missions.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Now...if you could intergrate RM/ARM comunications into that as well...

When you log in , if there are new orders, important news etc....a window would open like a PM notice....

This would save a ton of checking the racial forums

Now that idea I support 100%

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

What is it taking away???

Ok here is one area:

you now get to change your race, your ship and your location on the map. All without having to login to the server.

So a player is deepstriking low on supplies the enemy knows he is there so he goes to the webmap and putshimself in a DN before he is caught, or simply teleports himself to a sfer location.

Or suppose a side cuts off an entire section of enemy space.  The defending side just all go to the webmap and reassign themselves to the cutoff area in whatever ship they want and resist making much of that cutoff effort for nothing.

Or suppose a player is hunting ships moving between fronts hoping to ambush and surprise a few.  He sits on the most direct route between two key points waiting to catch enemy units as they streak to respond to what his teammates are doing.  He hopes to kill them but at worse he knows he will be keeping them away from the crucial area.  But his foes just simply go to the webmap and reappear on the other side of the map and he is left sitting there waiting for the foe that never came.

Just a few examples.

[FPF-Tobin Dax]

Yeah I have to say that the wormhole as it stands on the forge, would be unacceptable in a campaign as Chuut notes, you could get yourself out of hot water too easily deepstriking, or on the other side find the deepstriker on the webmap, buy your DN and go jump over to where he is for whatever PP cost.  Wormhole will favor the nutter as you would have to make it expensive so that it isn't used casually and frequently.
 The idea someone had here (Dizzy?) of making it only a blackhole hex to a blackhole hex for wormholes would make this better, as you would still have to fight your way at least a few hexes.

[Bonk]

Have no fear, the new version of the webmap will be fully configurable (more so than the current one.)

Dizzy has already expressed that bases will not be visible, player locations will not be visible, the wormholes will rather be stargates and will only work to/from allied planets only... adding up to just a minor time saver.

All these options will be configurable by the campaign admin.

While it won't be done for this server the goal of this approach to a shipyard is laying the groundwork for a real OoB.

The Forge (as its name implies) is meant partly as a testbed to explore new techologies in an open ended way, which it is doing quite well, besides just being a persistent server.

And I never did understand the visible bases issue on the webmap. Even without a webmap of any kind all bases are visible, just watch the news, on a busy server its impossible to place a base unobserved.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Have no fear, the new version of the webmap will be fully configurable (more so than the current one.)

Dizzy has already expressed that bases will not be visible, player locations will not be visible, the wormholes will rather be stargates and will only work to/from allied planets only... adding up to just a minor time saver.

All these options will be configurable by the campaign admin.

While it won't be done for this server the goal of this approach to a shipyard is laying the groundwork for a real OoB.

The Forge (as its name implies) is meant partly as a testbed to explore new techologies in an open ended way, which it is doing quite well, besides just being a persistent server.

Good to hear even the OOB goal I'm sure there are some players who  will enjoy that. Nice work Bonk.

[Dizzy]

Yeah I have to say that the wormhole as it stands on the forge, would be unacceptable in a campaign as Chuut notes, you could get yourself out of hot water too easily deepstriking, or on the other side find the deepstriker on the webmap, buy your DN and go jump over to where he is for whatever PP cost. 

After discussing it, Bonk and I see no point in charging pp for relocation via webmap. And as Bonk said, I stated elsewhere that you will find you will only be able to change locations via webmap from allied planet to allied planet.

What is it taking away???

Ok here is one area:

you now get to change your race, your ship and your location on the map. All without having to login to the server.

So a player is deepstriking low on supplies the enemy knows he is there so he goes to the webmap and putshimself in a DN before he is caught, or simply teleports himself to a sfer location.

See above.

Or suppose a side cuts off an entire section of enemy space.  The defending side just all go to the webmap and reassign themselves to the cutoff area in whatever ship they want and resist making much of that cutoff effort for nothing.

???

They already do this with using multiple accounts, Chuut.

Or suppose a player is hunting ships moving between fronts hoping to ambush and surprise a few.  He sits on the most direct route between two key points waiting to catch enemy units as they streak to respond to what his teammates are doing.  He hopes to kill them but at worse he knows he will be keeping them away from the crucial area.  But his foes just simply go to the webmap and reappear on the other side of the map and he is left sitting there waiting for the foe that never came.

Cutting off empires or parts of them is a strategic option left for A/RM's to choose based off of map VC conditions. You don't do it so you can wait to hunt ships moving between fronts hoping to ambush and surprise a few. Instead, you wait and catch the news and see what hex they hit then respond.

I think I've shot down all your concerns except one. Let's say you cut off an enemy section of the map, a small one, where there lies an enemy planet and now you have a buffer of 5-6 friendly hexes between it and enemy space. That buffer will give you some time to capture the planet or else catch them moving across the bridge to get to their planet trying to save it. However, with the new webmap relocator, the enemy will simply relocate to the planet skipping thru having to fight their way thru that area you cut off.

I dont like that. I discussed talking to Bonk that if individual planets have no LoS to another friendly planet, then web map reloaction to that planet is disabled thus avoiding the above situation where they enemy just magically pops up there skipping thru the buffer zone you created.



Some caveats about how it's still the same as the old way: Some players SD near that planet and will respawn there skipping thru the buffer zone anyway. Players may have multiple accounts and have logged off there in one. You may not be online when they decide to cut thru the buffer zone. And even if you are, you may be outnumbered, out classed, out PvP'd. Few situations actually turn it into an advantage in cutting off a small area, but I have taken notice of this and have discussed it with Bonk already.

Whether it can be addressed as I discussed we will see...

Can you think of anything else besides what we talked about here? I think this new feature has just that one flaw.

[Dizzy]

Dizzy has already expressed that player locations will not be visible

What about except for players like Hexx or those that have bounties? Can we set it up to see where they are?

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Or suppose a side cuts off an entire section of enemy space.  The defending side just all go to the webmap and reassign themselves to the cutoff area in whatever ship they want and resist making much of that cutoff effort for nothing.

???

They already do this with using multiple accounts, Chuut.

And I think that is not a good thing either.

Cutting off empires or parts of them is a strategic option left for A/RM's to choose based off of map VC conditions. You don't do it so you can wait to hunt ships moving between fronts hoping to ambush and surprise a few. Instead, you wait and catch the news and see what hex they hit then respond.

You misread the intent.  The purpose is for the VCs the waiting to hunt is an action to further this end.  By sitting between the points you engage the enemy as he progresses to the battle area, hopefully destroying him, if he runs away you might draft him again further slowing his progress to the contested area.  You are potentially drafting him away from his planets and bases rather than fighting him in areas where he can resupply between missions.

Some caveats about how it's still the same as the old way: Some players SD near that planet and will respawn there skipping thru the buffer zone anyway.

Always thought that was cheap too.  I fight my way out, or die trying my best.

Players may have multiple accounts and have logged off there in one.

Multiple accounts have good and bad points.  I like them when you have OOB limitations so that you can log off the "heavy iron"  when someone else wants to take a turn.  I don't mind it so much when you have to rely on random shipyards.  I don't think it would be necessary to have multiples as long as webmap purchasing and shifting accounts between races is available and should be forbidden.

As for other areas I can see the potential for "blinking" all over the map.  When the instant blinking is allowed it defeats such tactics as diversions to a large degree.  Supposing that there is a limit of 1 DN per side on a server.  That DN can be lured into a certain area of operations by a diversion taking it away from the real target for a while, with the ability to magically teleport from here to there that big ship can basically be everywhere at once.  Put that with a disengagement rule and you have the potential for one ship to dicate the action for the entire map.  There should be hard choices about what is strategically important, this "blinking" is a detriment to strategy in this regard.

Also you have the potential for hex flippers to blink from front to front as well.

Another thing is with such teleporting, tracking the news to determine where the enemy is becomes less reliable.  Sure that DN took a mission on the rom fron a minute ago, but he might be on the Lyran front now.  Or where is that pesky Soreyes he hit the Klingons a minute ago, but he hit the Roms 2 minutes ago, and the Lyrans three minutes ago, etc.  The intelligence reporting of the news is thus rendered nearly useless.

[762_XC]

Chuut raises some good points here. I really do not like the teleportation thing.

And Dizzy, what would even be the point of charging PP for it? The nutters are the ones you would worry about the most, along with the heavy iron.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Dizzy has already expressed that player locations will not be visible

What about except for players like Hexx or those that have bounties? Can we set it up to see where they are?

Why?  A bounty Hunter is just that a hunter.  It takes skill and sometimes luck for a hunter to track his prey, it shouldn't be a matter of clicking the mouse once.