Topic: After a week banning. let's pick up where I left off.  (Read 18044 times)

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Offline Lepton

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After a week banning. let's pick up where I left off.
« on: April 30, 2006, 02:31:51 pm »
Since the other thread is locked, I will start a new thread regarding banning IPs of those with connection issues. 

First, I think it is beyond draconian to insist (then enforce/cajole via banning) on exposing people's systems to any manner of intrusion.  This has never been an issue on any server that I know of in the past to any significant degree that enforcing connectivity has been necessary.  People dropping is a nuisance at best.  I could also give a rat's ass what the net intelligentia  on this forum claim about the security on playing on a server with a firewall down.  I personally have not played with a firewall for quite some time as doing so did not allow me to connect properly to the server.  It's not as if I am advocating firewalls to any degree.  To me, this is hardly the issue at hand.  Be the facts as they may, it is not up to us to determine and force people into actions that they may feel jeopardize their security whether it is actually the case or not.  I doubt the server admin or the dynaverse governing body will be recompensing anyone that suffers damage to his or her system and/or data via a net attack however unlikely.

Second, what I find offensive is insisting upon asking people to do something which they may not be comfortable with and that this insistance is further backed-up with the cudgel-wielding server admin that will ban folks for having "connectivity issues".  To me, this has always been a community and as such, I am afraid, I will have to insist that any such rules that will potentially deny access to servers that would not exist without the community, that these kind of rules be up for public debate and that it is dependent upon the will of the community and not a rogue server admin how such connectivity issues will be handled. I do not believe it should be the role of the server admin to determine policies that effect something as basic as access to a server, especially if the dynaverse campaign runs on the actual physical server that hosts most public dynaverse servers.

Third, I find it offensive the manner in which this particular rule was announced to the community.  It was basically a "do this or else and to hell with those who don't do as I say".  I find that manner of communicating to be rude, and considering the source, emblematic of over-blown egotism that has no place in such a small community of players.  As I said previously, there are any number of other servers waiting in the wings.  Those who feel they are being brow-beaten as opposed to reasoned-with certainly have my full support in boycotting any server that would enforce the proposed banning policy without a frank discussion within the community about whether it is reasonable to insist that people open up their systems to any manner of attack, no matter how unlikely, if they do not wish to.

Finally, I find it no great disgrace to myself to suggest a boycott.  As the community becomes smaller and smaller, it is first of all incumbent upon us to have an inclusive and welcoming atmosphere and not to dictate to anyone the terms for participlating in our little world and second, as the community becomes smaller and smaller, the will of the community becomes more and more important as each person holds more of a stake in the life of the community.  If we were thousands, arbitrary decisions of this sort might not matter as much as those who are affected are relatively faceless and unknown, but as our circle tightens decisions are likely to effect those we know very directly and that is where and when we must be most accountable to the community, when the effects are known, direct, and frankly, in this small group, personal.


Repeated (though veiled) personal attack removed - I'm giving you a break here Lepton.
 Warning for repeated, though veiled personal attack.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2006, 06:10:43 pm by Bonk »


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Offline Nemesis

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Re: After a week banning. let's pick up where I left off.
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2006, 02:51:56 pm »
I agree with much of your viewpoint though not all of it but the personal conflict that resulted (on both sides) derailed the discussion rather than allowing it to be resolved.

Might I suggest that you stick to politely debating the issue and leave the personalities out of it?  In the long run it would be much more effective. 
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Offline KAT Chuut-Ritt

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Re: After a week banning. let's pick up where I left off.
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2006, 03:08:39 pm »
Well said Nemisis +1 to you.


I alos agree pretty much with Lepton, but not totally.  A server admin can put any rules up he wishes and the host of the server can allow this or disallow this.  It is their right.  Is it productive to ban folkes using firewalls?  Likely not. 

What I believe in is a polite request not to run the firewalls, and pointing out the problems they casue followed by answers to concerns about turning them off that some may have to ease their fears.  A more suitable rule would be perhaps if a player who still wants to run a firewall drops or has lag in a mission then they are required to remove themselves from the contested area for an hour.  If their firewall causes no such problem then they are free to fly with it.  If it does cause such a problem, then they fly elsewhere for a while out of respect for the other players.

Draconian statements never go over well for good reason, polite requests usually achieve much of the goal and none of the ill will.

Offline Strat

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Re: After a week banning. let's pick up where I left off.
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2006, 03:28:22 pm »
We had a good long discussion about this in the D2 Server Admin forums, and basically came to the same conculsion:

Goal is good, attitude and method suck.

Offline Grim

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Re: After a week banning. let's pick up where I left off.
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2006, 04:16:10 pm »
I pretty much agree with most of Lepton's viewpoint, and agree with the posters above that it is far better to raise your viewpoint through polite and calm discussion rather than a heated rant that in most cases ends up becoming personal. Chuut raised the valid and important point that a server admin can choose to run a server as they see fit, the benefit of having such an open community and these resources such as the forums means a player can decide whether or not to fly a campaign/server, giving a player an option of choice.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2006, 04:31:51 pm by Grim »

Offline Bonk

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Re: After a week banning. let's pick up where I left off.
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2006, 04:27:15 pm »
Bottom line: software firewalls are bad for the game and have probably more damage to the community than any other single issue.

Anyone is welcome to play on The Forge and Universe At War, regardless of what they are running on their PC, but if you are running a software firewall, please do not submit bug reports of any kind as they cannot be trusted. Secondly, please do not draft me or allow me to draft you, I prefer stable missions.

However, I insist on no software firewalls on MySQL test servers, thanks.

Offline Nemesis

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Re: After a week banning. let's pick up where I left off.
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2006, 04:31:58 pm »
A more suitable rule would be perhaps if a player who still wants to run a firewall drops or has lag in a mission then they are required to remove themselves from the contested area for an hour.  If their firewall causes no such problem then they are free to fly with it.  If it does cause such a problem, then they fly elsewhere for a while out of respect for the other players.

Probably the best suggestion I've seen.  If the former thread had been able to continue it might have been solved a week ago.
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Offline Bonk

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Re: After a week banning. let's pick up where I left off.
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2006, 04:59:18 pm »
A more suitable rule would be perhaps if a player who still wants to run a firewall drops or has lag in a mission then they are required to remove themselves from the contested area for an hour.  If their firewall causes no such problem then they are free to fly with it.  If it does cause such a problem, then they fly elsewhere for a while out of respect for the other players.


Probably the best suggestion I've seen.  If the former thread had been able to continue it might have been solved a week ago.


Been pretty much a standing rule for years:

Quote
9. If you are having a bad connection, either dropping a lot or causing your opponents to constantly drop, we ask that you stop playing for a while and try again later or move away from any other players on the map. If your connection continues to cause problems we ask that you do not play on SFC2.Net until you get a better connection.

http://www.sfc2.net/rules.asp

The problem is that software firewalls are unpredicatable - too much of a "black box".

There is nothing to tell us that if it works fine for hours it won't start acting up for some unknown reason right in the middle of a critical mission. Besides, why would anyone want to introduce instability into the game? Masochism?

Now if someone can show me an open-source software firewall where we can inspect the source code so we know exactly what it is doing, I might be able to approve of it.

I am speaking from experience, I very nearly abandoned OP in the first year because of ZoneAlarm. I uninstalled it and haven't looked back. I can guarantee you that many players have been lost to software firewalls, blaming instability on the game when in fact it was their software firewall.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2006, 05:10:56 pm by Bonk »

Offline Bonk

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Re: After a week banning. let's pick up where I left off.
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2006, 05:25:38 pm »
A hypothetical case:

Your ISP port scans its clients for TOS compliance on a random schedule. (often routine) The security server hits your machine right in the middle of a significant 2vs2 dynaverse mission. What does your firewall do? Lock down the connection while it chews up cpu resources tring to figure out what is going on, meanwhile you drop from the mission much to the other players chagrin...

There are countless possible scenarios like this that will result in an unpredictable situation that would be just fine if there were no software firewall involved.

Lets say your anti-virus autoupdater runs mid mission, it queries the DNS server, but your software firewall blocks full communications with your DNS server (very frequently the case)... what is the result? Most likely a drop from mission.

To give you an idea:
http://www.freelabs.com/~whitis/isp_mistakes.html

Additionally, the majority of software firewalls can be broken...(do a little searching). If someone wants in to your machine real bad, they will get in one way or another if it is on the internet. If that is the case you must ask yourself, why would I be a target? If you have files critical to national security or multimillion dollar investments on a PC, then you probably should not be using it to play SFC on the internet. If you don't have such valuable files present on your system that others somehow know about, what are you doing to draw negative attention?

On top of it all, software firewalls are FALSE SECURITY!

Have you noticed that the people behind most of the security hype are trying to sell you something? I'm sure you all have seen the "Your computer may be at risk!" banner that leads to some nice and dandy spyware just for you!

The following links should give you some idea of jsut how secure some of the software firewalls are, (if the evaluations can be this easliy cracked you can be sure the rest of the app is not far behind):
(caution! follow links at your own risk!)
http://www.crackdb.com/index_1_z_2.html  (dozens of Zonealarm cracks)
http://www.crackdb.com/index_1_k.html (dozens of Kerio cracks)
http://www.crackdb.com/index_1_m_3.html (several McAfee cracks)
http://www.crackdb.com/index_1_n_4.html (several Norton cracks)
... I think you can see where I'm going with this.


« Last Edit: April 30, 2006, 06:06:27 pm by Bonk »

Offline Lepton

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Re: After a week banning. let's pick up where I left off.
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2006, 06:35:17 pm »
Sounds as if the issue is solved then.  Tact and education rather than bullying.  I assume that someone will inform he who shall not be named of this and we won't be seeing anymore veiled or unveiled threats to players in this community.  Sorry if my remarks stymied debate, but it seems that cooler heads and more reasonable minds are prevailing.


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Offline Dizzy

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Re: After a week banning. let's pick up where I left off.
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2006, 08:29:13 pm »
What I believe in is a polite request not to run the firewalls, and pointing out the problems they casue followed by answers to concerns about turning them off that some may have to ease their fears.  A more suitable rule would be perhaps if a player who still wants to run a firewall drops or has lag in a mission then...

then... would be required to either stop running missions on the front lines (read: hexes adjacent to enemy hexes) or turn off their firewall.  ;) I agree Chuut. The rule will personify niceness to the point of being a gluttonous stuck pig gorged on please and pretty please.

Quote
Draconian statements never go over well for good reason, polite requests usually achieve much of the goal and none of the ill will.

True, but polite requets are also all too often ignored. I think I've made my point and CayneG and Bonk confirmed it; Software Firewalls are bad business for OP and turning them off for dyna sessions is only a good thing.


Lepton,  :stfu:

Offline Dizzy

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Re: After a week banning. let's pick up where I left off.
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2006, 09:42:20 pm »
Bottom line: software firewalls are bad for the game and have probably more damage to the community than any other single issue.

I insist on no software firewalls on MySQL test servers, thanks.

Make that SG servers as well.

Offline Julin Eurthyr

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Re: After a week banning. let's pick up where I left off.
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2006, 11:03:56 pm »
A hypothetical case:

Your ISP port scans its clients for TOS compliance on a random schedule. (often routine) The security server hits your machine right in the middle of a significant 2vs2 dynaverse mission. What does your firewall do? Lock down the connection while it chews up cpu resources tring to figure out what is going on, meanwhile you drop from the mission much to the other players chagrin...

There are countless possible scenarios like this that will result in an unpredictable situation that would be just fine if there were no software firewall involved.

Lets say your anti-virus autoupdater runs mid mission, it queries the DNS server, but your software firewall blocks full communications with your DNS server (very frequently the case)... what is the result? Most likely a drop from mission.

Ain't this the Truth...  I alluded to this in my "software firewall lessons learned" thread...

Perhaps, and this does require testing, which this community so loves to do, uninstalling / reinstalling the firewall, and clearing out all the port blocks built up by the firewall, might cut back / end the firewall connectivity issues.

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Offline FPF-DieHard

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Re: After a week banning. let's pick up where I left off.
« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2006, 11:47:00 pm »
If you connection sucks, stay off the frontline.  It doesn't matter why it sucks, firewall, crappy PC, whatever.   This should be common sense
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Offline FA Frey XC

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Re: After a week banning. let's pick up where I left off.
« Reply #14 on: May 01, 2006, 08:11:57 am »
If you connection sucks, stay off the frontline.  It doesn't matter why it sucks, firewall, crappy PC, whatever.   This should be common sense
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Offline Dizzy

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Re: After a week banning. let's pick up where I left off.
« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2006, 08:52:06 am »
If you connection sucks, stay off the frontline.  It doesn't matter why it sucks, firewall, crappy PC, whatever.   This should be common sense
:goodpost:

That's retroactive thinking. We need to be proactive. We all know software firewalls f*ck up connectivity so DONT use them. Doh. Like Bonk said, rule #9 has been around forever, but people need to know it's there mostly because of their software firewalls. If you turn them off, you wont be a bugger on the front lines. I need a hammer.

Offline Lepton

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Re: After a week banning. let's pick up where I left off.
« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2006, 06:06:16 pm »
What I fail to understand is why anyone is in a tizzy about people's connection stability.  Is this really an issue or merely an occasional inconvenience?  I'd suggest that it is a mere occasional inconvenience which means there is little call for a strict rule and/or policy.  If someone can demonstrate to us all that this is a serious issue I'd be glad to hear it, but if this is more like 1 out to 10 missions effected or 1 out of 50 then who cares.

Let's reason this out.  On any given server, I'd argue there is a small percentage of players running firewalls.  Given the 24-hour nature of the server, on average it is likely to be rare that anyone is encountering someone running a firewall at any particular time in any particular mission.  This is a tempest in a teapot as far as I am concerned.  Has anyone done a poll asking how many people play on a server with a firewall up?  Might be good to have some data before drawing any conclusions or setting any policy.


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Offline FPF-DieHard

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Re: After a week banning. let's pick up where I left off.
« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2006, 06:16:25 pm »
Is this really an issue or merely an occasional inconvenience?


Absolutley and issue.   You know how hard it is to get 3 DNHs to jump a Frigate if the connections don't hold?   ;D
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Re: After a week banning. let's pick up where I left off.
« Reply #18 on: May 01, 2006, 07:29:53 pm »
It's not 1 out of 50 or 1 out of 10. It's more like 2 out of 5 I'd say.

Offline Dfly

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Re: After a week banning. let's pick up where I left off.
« Reply #19 on: May 01, 2006, 07:43:00 pm »
well if you are getting 2 out of 5, you better check your system.  I get about 1 out of 20, and it is usually with a known bad connection person.