Topic: After a week banning. let's pick up where I left off.

[Lepton]

Since the other thread is locked, I will start a new thread regarding banning IPs of those with connection issues. 

First, I think it is beyond draconian to insist (then enforce/cajole via banning) on exposing people's systems to any manner of intrusion.  This has never been an issue on any server that I know of in the past to any significant degree that enforcing connectivity has been necessary.  People dropping is a nuisance at best.  I could also give a rat's ass what the net intelligentia  on this forum claim about the security on playing on a server with a firewall down.  I personally have not played with a firewall for quite some time as doing so did not allow me to connect properly to the server.  It's not as if I am advocating firewalls to any degree.  To me, this is hardly the issue at hand.  Be the facts as they may, it is not up to us to determine and force people into actions that they may feel jeopardize their security whether it is actually the case or not.  I doubt the server admin or the dynaverse governing body will be recompensing anyone that suffers damage to his or her system and/or data via a net attack however unlikely.

Second, what I find offensive is insisting upon asking people to do something which they may not be comfortable with and that this insistance is further backed-up with the cudgel-wielding server admin that will ban folks for having "connectivity issues".  To me, this has always been a community and as such, I am afraid, I will have to insist that any such rules that will potentially deny access to servers that would not exist without the community, that these kind of rules be up for public debate and that it is dependent upon the will of the community and not a rogue server admin how such connectivity issues will be handled. I do not believe it should be the role of the server admin to determine policies that effect something as basic as access to a server, especially if the dynaverse campaign runs on the actual physical server that hosts most public dynaverse servers.

Third, I find it offensive the manner in which this particular rule was announced to the community.  It was basically a "do this or else and to hell with those who don't do as I say".  I find that manner of communicating to be rude, and considering the source, emblematic of over-blown egotism that has no place in such a small community of players.  As I said previously, there are any number of other servers waiting in the wings.  Those who feel they are being brow-beaten as opposed to reasoned-with certainly have my full support in boycotting any server that would enforce the proposed banning policy without a frank discussion within the community about whether it is reasonable to insist that people open up their systems to any manner of attack, no matter how unlikely, if they do not wish to.

Finally, I find it no great disgrace to myself to suggest a boycott.  As the community becomes smaller and smaller, it is first of all incumbent upon us to have an inclusive and welcoming atmosphere and not to dictate to anyone the terms for participlating in our little world and second, as the community becomes smaller and smaller, the will of the community becomes more and more important as each person holds more of a stake in the life of the community.  If we were thousands, arbitrary decisions of this sort might not matter as much as those who are affected are relatively faceless and unknown, but as our circle tightens decisions are likely to effect those we know very directly and that is where and when we must be most accountable to the community, when the effects are known, direct, and frankly, in this small group, personal.


Repeated (though veiled) personal attack removed - I'm giving you a break here Lepton.

 Warning for repeated, though veiled personal attack.

[Nemesis]

I agree with much of your viewpoint though not all of it but the personal conflict that resulted (on both sides) derailed the discussion rather than allowing it to be resolved.

Might I suggest that you stick to politely debating the issue and leave the personalities out of it?  In the long run it would be much more effective. 

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Well said Nemisis +1 to you.


I alos agree pretty much with Lepton, but not totally.  A server admin can put any rules up he wishes and the host of the server can allow this or disallow this.  It is their right.  Is it productive to ban folkes using firewalls?  Likely not. 

What I believe in is a polite request not to run the firewalls, and pointing out the problems they casue followed by answers to concerns about turning them off that some may have to ease their fears.  A more suitable rule would be perhaps if a player who still wants to run a firewall drops or has lag in a mission then they are required to remove themselves from the contested area for an hour.  If their firewall causes no such problem then they are free to fly with it.  If it does cause such a problem, then they fly elsewhere for a while out of respect for the other players.

Draconian statements never go over well for good reason, polite requests usually achieve much of the goal and none of the ill will.

[Strat]

We had a good long discussion about this in the D2 Server Admin forums, and basically came to the same conculsion:

Goal is good, attitude and method suck.

[Grim]

I pretty much agree with most of Lepton's viewpoint, and agree with the posters above that it is far better to raise your viewpoint through polite and calm discussion rather than a heated rant that in most cases ends up becoming personal. Chuut raised the valid and important point that a server admin can choose to run a server as they see fit, the benefit of having such an open community and these resources such as the forums means a player can decide whether or not to fly a campaign/server, giving a player an option of choice.

[Bonk]

Bottom line: software firewalls are bad for the game and have probably more damage to the community than any other single issue.

Anyone is welcome to play on The Forge and Universe At War, regardless of what they are running on their PC, but if you are running a software firewall, please do not submit bug reports of any kind as they cannot be trusted. Secondly, please do not draft me or allow me to draft you, I prefer stable missions.

However, I insist on no software firewalls on MySQL test servers, thanks.

[Nemesis]

A more suitable rule would be perhaps if a player who still wants to run a firewall drops or has lag in a mission then they are required to remove themselves from the contested area for an hour.  If their firewall causes no such problem then they are free to fly with it.  If it does cause such a problem, then they fly elsewhere for a while out of respect for the other players.

Probably the best suggestion I've seen.  If the former thread had been able to continue it might have been solved a week ago.

[Bonk]

A more suitable rule would be perhaps if a player who still wants to run a firewall drops or has lag in a mission then they are required to remove themselves from the contested area for an hour.  If their firewall causes no such problem then they are free to fly with it.  If it does cause such a problem, then they fly elsewhere for a while out of respect for the other players.

Probably the best suggestion I've seen.  If the former thread had been able to continue it might have been solved a week ago.

Been pretty much a standing rule for years:

9. If you are having a bad connection, either dropping a lot or causing your opponents to constantly drop, we ask that you stop playing for a while and try again later or move away from any other players on the map. If your connection continues to cause problems we ask that you do not play on SFC2.Net until you get a better connection.

http://www.sfc2.net/rules.asp

The problem is that software firewalls are unpredicatable - too much of a "black box".

There is nothing to tell us that if it works fine for hours it won't start acting up for some unknown reason right in the middle of a critical mission. Besides, why would anyone want to introduce instability into the game? Masochism?

Now if someone can show me an open-source software firewall where we can inspect the source code so we know exactly what it is doing, I might be able to approve of it.

I am speaking from experience, I very nearly abandoned OP in the first year because of ZoneAlarm. I uninstalled it and haven't looked back. I can guarantee you that many players have been lost to software firewalls, blaming instability on the game when in fact it was their software firewall.

[Bonk]

A hypothetical case:

Your ISP port scans its clients for TOS compliance on a random schedule. (often routine) The security server hits your machine right in the middle of a significant 2vs2 dynaverse mission. What does your firewall do? Lock down the connection while it chews up cpu resources tring to figure out what is going on, meanwhile you drop from the mission much to the other players chagrin...

There are countless possible scenarios like this that will result in an unpredictable situation that would be just fine if there were no software firewall involved.

Lets say your anti-virus autoupdater runs mid mission, it queries the DNS server, but your software firewall blocks full communications with your DNS server (very frequently the case)... what is the result? Most likely a drop from mission.

To give you an idea:
http://www.freelabs.com/~whitis/isp_mistakes.html

Additionally, the majority of software firewalls can be broken...(do a little searching). If someone wants in to your machine real bad, they will get in one way or another if it is on the internet. If that is the case you must ask yourself, why would I be a target? If you have files critical to national security or multimillion dollar investments on a PC, then you probably should not be using it to play SFC on the internet. If you don't have such valuable files present on your system that others somehow know about, what are you doing to draw negative attention?

On top of it all, software firewalls are FALSE SECURITY!

Have you noticed that the people behind most of the security hype are trying to sell you something? I'm sure you all have seen the "Your computer may be at risk!" banner that leads to some nice and dandy spyware just for you!

The following links should give you some idea of jsut how secure some of the software firewalls are, (if the evaluations can be this easliy cracked you can be sure the rest of the app is not far behind):
(caution! follow links at your own risk!)
http://www.crackdb.com/index_1_z_2.html  (dozens of Zonealarm cracks)
http://www.crackdb.com/index_1_k.html (dozens of Kerio cracks)
http://www.crackdb.com/index_1_m_3.html (several McAfee cracks)
http://www.crackdb.com/index_1_n_4.html (several Norton cracks)
... I think you can see where I'm going with this.

[Lepton]

Sounds as if the issue is solved then.  Tact and education rather than bullying.  I assume that someone will inform he who shall not be named of this and we won't be seeing anymore veiled or unveiled threats to players in this community.  Sorry if my remarks stymied debate, but it seems that cooler heads and more reasonable minds are prevailing.

[Dizzy]

What I believe in is a polite request not to run the firewalls, and pointing out the problems they casue followed by answers to concerns about turning them off that some may have to ease their fears.  A more suitable rule would be perhaps if a player who still wants to run a firewall drops or has lag in a mission then...

then... would be required to either stop running missions on the front lines (read: hexes adjacent to enemy hexes) or turn off their firewall.  I agree Chuut. The rule will personify niceness to the point of being a gluttonous stuck pig gorged on please and pretty please.

Draconian statements never go over well for good reason, polite requests usually achieve much of the goal and none of the ill will.

True, but polite requets are also all too often ignored. I think I've made my point and CayneG and Bonk confirmed it; Software Firewalls are bad business for OP and turning them off for dyna sessions is only a good thing.


Lepton, 

[Dizzy]

Bottom line: software firewalls are bad for the game and have probably more damage to the community than any other single issue.

I insist on no software firewalls on MySQL test servers, thanks.

Make that SG servers as well.

[Julin Eurthyr]

A hypothetical case:

Your ISP port scans its clients for TOS compliance on a random schedule. (often routine) The security server hits your machine right in the middle of a significant 2vs2 dynaverse mission. What does your firewall do? Lock down the connection while it chews up cpu resources tring to figure out what is going on, meanwhile you drop from the mission much to the other players chagrin...

There are countless possible scenarios like this that will result in an unpredictable situation that would be just fine if there were no software firewall involved.

Lets say your anti-virus autoupdater runs mid mission, it queries the DNS server, but your software firewall blocks full communications with your DNS server (very frequently the case)... what is the result? Most likely a drop from mission.

Ain't this the Truth...  I alluded to this in my "software firewall lessons learned" thread...

Perhaps, and this does require testing, which this community so loves to do, uninstalling / reinstalling the firewall, and clearing out all the port blocks built up by the firewall, might cut back / end the firewall connectivity issues.

[FPF-DieHard]

If you connection sucks, stay off the frontline.  It doesn't matter why it sucks, firewall, crappy PC, whatever.   This should be common sense

[FA Frey XC]

If you connection sucks, stay off the frontline.  It doesn't matter why it sucks, firewall, crappy PC, whatever.   This should be common sense

[Dizzy]

If you connection sucks, stay off the frontline.  It doesn't matter why it sucks, firewall, crappy PC, whatever.   This should be common sense

That's retroactive thinking. We need to be proactive. We all know software firewalls f*ck up connectivity so DONT use them. Doh. Like Bonk said, rule #9 has been around forever, but people need to know it's there mostly because of their software firewalls. If you turn them off, you wont be a bugger on the front lines. I need a hammer.

[Lepton]

What I fail to understand is why anyone is in a tizzy about people's connection stability.  Is this really an issue or merely an occasional inconvenience?  I'd suggest that it is a mere occasional inconvenience which means there is little call for a strict rule and/or policy.  If someone can demonstrate to us all that this is a serious issue I'd be glad to hear it, but if this is more like 1 out to 10 missions effected or 1 out of 50 then who cares.

Let's reason this out.  On any given server, I'd argue there is a small percentage of players running firewalls.  Given the 24-hour nature of the server, on average it is likely to be rare that anyone is encountering someone running a firewall at any particular time in any particular mission.  This is a tempest in a teapot as far as I am concerned.  Has anyone done a poll asking how many people play on a server with a firewall up?  Might be good to have some data before drawing any conclusions or setting any policy.

[FPF-DieHard]

Is this really an issue or merely an occasional inconvenience?

Absolutley and issue.   You know how hard it is to get 3 DNHs to jump a Frigate if the connections don't hold?   

[762_XC]

It's not 1 out of 50 or 1 out of 10. It's more like 2 out of 5 I'd say.

[Dfly]

well if you are getting 2 out of 5, you better check your system.  I get about 1 out of 20, and it is usually with a known bad connection person.

[KBF-Crim]

It's not 1 out of 50 or 1 out of 10. It's more like 2 out of 5 I'd say.

Until there is a scientific gathering of data concerning each specific set of connections between each player and every other player...it's all BS...there is no hard number....and no one factor....

I never had 2 out of 5 on my worse day on dial up.....1 out of 20 was bad....at 2 out of 5, I wouldnt bother playing...

And as of yet....no one has been able to point to any real world situation by naming the ANY player with said firewalls or providing even the most basic of evidence other than "yeah I had problems connecting"....

Start posting and recording drops,the mission,the hex, each players connection, Operating system,System stats, DX version,Internet service provider,Whether or not both players have the updated OP DDL's,etc ,etc

And lets stop mixing the terms of software firewalls with hardware firewalls...

[762_XC]

Well maybe we're talking about different things then. I'm talking about "host left" messages, unplayable lag, speed bugs, or anything else that make the mission unplayable. 2 out of 5 may be on the worst day with the worst players (in terms of connectivity) but on average it's far more frequent than 1 in 20.

If the incidence rate was as low as 5% server admins would not feel compelled to include a mandatory retry rule.

[Bonk]

....at 2 out of 5, I wouldnt bother playing...

Exactly. When I used ZoneAlarm with OP I experienced 4/5 or 5/5 - nearly quit playing. Until it occurred to me to uninstall ZoneAlarm.

And as of yet....no one has been able to point to any real world situation by naming the ANY player with said firewalls or providing even the most basic of evidence other than "yeah I had problems connecting"....

I have outlined my personal case a number of times. Back on the Triangle I think it was. I was behind a linksys router properly configured and running Win2K. Running Zonelarm I dropped from nearly every mission. I uninstalled zoanalarm and my problems disappeared.

We are discussing software firewalls. (it is assumed that if your router has a firewall that you will disable it).

I have been fighting this battle for years, and gaining little ground.

I know for a fact that thay are bad for missions, don't believe me? Too bad. Prove it to yourself.

If you are unwilling to perform the necessary experiments to prove it to yourself, then I am sorry, there is nothing I can, or am willing to do (for you).

I grow weary, I'm about ready to give in and say fine - lets all run software firewalls all the time and suffer unstable missions. I can't imagine why we'd want to do that but it seems to be what people want.

I am done with this discussion. I've said my piece. No software firewalls on MySQL test servers period. If you insist on running a software firewall on The Forge or Universe At War, do not submit bug reports of any kind and please stay clear of me on the map.

One we have the server on MySQL stabilised under load I intend to look at seriously fortifying the firewall detector if possible. That is all I can do to force the issue. I'm done pissing into the wind.

[Capt Jeff]

You're not pissing into the wind Bonk, I agree completly, and so does everyone I've talked to.

Taking the time to shut off the firewall before getting on D2 seems extremely worth it if it means eliminating host left or CTD's/lag/disconnects.

Just remember to turn it back on before going to the porn sites..... 

[Bonk]

Its encouraging to hear that, thanks. (Though don't assume it will eliminate host left or CTD's/lag/disconnects - greatly reduce, yes - eliminate, no - its not a magic bullet.)

I know I said I'd shut up about this, but I just remembered another thought I had - perhaps we could contact all software firewall producers and explain to them in great detail how SFC dynaverse works and perhaps they could make allowances for it in their firewalls... a bit of a long shot but might be worth looking into.

[Capt Jeff]

Didn't mean to say eliminate, just greatly reduce 

And when Storm Season 3 comes about, there will be a rule something like this:

Please make sure your internet connection and computer are as stable as possible.   Make sure you've disabled your A/V, firewall, and any updaters that may be running on your machine.  Also, make sure you are running as few proceses as possible on your computer to help with system performance.

[762_XC]

Yeah, AV is another big culprit.

[GDA-S'Cipio]

Please make sure your internet connection and computer are as stable as possible.   Make sure you've disabled your A/V, firewall, and any updaters that may be running on your machine.  Also, make sure you are running as few proceses as possible on your computer to help with system performance.

For those who wish to comply, I'm not sure disabling is going to get the job done.  With the latest version of Norton AV, at least, I've noticed it keeps giving me alert messages and "I've just blocked a worm" messages, even after I've disabled it!

It's rather annoying.   So, on the machine I game on (in the back study where kids are verboten, only I am allowed on, and I can control exactly which sites it goes to) I've uninstalled Norton completely.  I still operate behind my router's NAT.

-S'Cipio

[Bonk]

For those who wish to comply, I'm not sure disabling is going to get the job done.  With the latest version of Norton AV, at least, I've noticed it keeps giving me alert messages and "I've just blocked a worm" messages, even after I've disabled it!

* Bonk goes into apoplectic fits...

[Bugman67]

GDA-S'Cipio,
          I have Norton AV also and there is a button to turn the worm detection off as well as the regular disable button.


-Bugman-

[GDA-S'Cipio]

GDA-S'Cipio,
          I have Norton AV also and there is a button to turn the worm detection off as well as the regular disable button.


-Bugman-

Thanks, Bugman!  I'll go look for that.

-S'Cipio

[Dizzy]

And when Storm Season 3 comes about, there will be a rule something like this:

Please make sure your internet connection and computer are as stable as possible.   Make sure you've disabled your A/V, firewall, and any updaters that may be running on your machine.  Also, make sure you are running as few proceses as possible on your computer to help with system performance.

YES![/b]

You made my day. Now we have Bonk, me and Jeff. That leaves DH's servers, Scipio's and Bartok's servers left to join the no software firewall club. Muhahahaha! For the players, resistance is futile. You will lower your shields and be assimilated into the collective or destroyed!

[762_XC]

The best way to turn off Norton is through "Add/Remove Programs".

It is the most insidious, invasive piece of crap you can install on your puter.

[Bonk]

Hear, Hear t00l! 


Maybe I'm not done ranting about this....

Read the text below very carefully:

Warning about Firewall and similar software

Most Firewall programs, Web Spam filters and other TCP/IP driver-based products (including spyware!) do not correctly implement the entire WinSock API. The shortcuts taken by the developers of such products cause Apache to fail. If you insist on leaving such programs installed, and have problems with your Apache installation, consider the suggestion below.

Problems Installing or Running Apache 2

If you encounter problems running Apache 2 under Windows, such as corrupted or incomplete file downloads, unexplained error messages, or a conflict with a software firewall, please place the following three directives in your httpd.conf configuration file to see if they eliminate the problems:

    EnableSendfile Off
    EnableMMAP Off
    Win32DisableAcceptEx

The general problem is that many people install various add-ons to windows (such as software firewalls, virus checkers, etc) that break some of the advanced functionality that Apache uses to speed the sending of files. The above directives turn off the advanced functionality and make Apache fall back to more basic (but slower) techniques. This resolves most, but not all of the potential problems. If you continue to experience problems, be certain that there is no spyware installed on the box, which exhibits exactly the same sorts of flaws (often more obviously).

If you encounter problems installing Apache .msi distributions, we have provided the TROUBLESHOOTING page to help you diagnose and fix most common installation problems.

http://www.apache.org/dist/httpd/binaries/win32/

I have come across this with Apache, in particular Norton/Symantec AV is known to interfere with AcceptEx. Perhaps people will be more inclined to believe the Apache developers than me...

I just searched the serverkit source for "WinSock"

Searching for 'WinSock'...
<individual results omitted for NDA compliance>
38 occurrence(s) have been found.

Looking at the files involved and code contexts I can safely say that the WinSock API is critical to the dynaverse serverkit, If I had a copy of the client source I'm quite sure I'd see similar results.

[Dizzy]

Bonk, forget trying to explain it. Just post the rule and declare it's our way or the highway. Otherwise you'll be explaining till you're blue in the face because some just won't accept it no matter how logical it is. Those players will no longer be players. Good riddens.

[KBF-Crim]

Bonk, forget trying to explain it. Just post the rule and declare it's our way or the highway. Otherwise you'll be explaining till you're blue in the face because some just won't accept it no matter how logical it is. Those players will no longer be players. Good riddens.

Ok...this isnt border line...it's baiting...

Please knock it off...

[Dizzy]

What? Is my middle name glass? So what if I want to know WHO they are. I in fact already know, thank you very much. I'm simply making the statement that there are unbelievers among us and we must purge them quickly at all costs before it's too late!

 Have some respect for our community members, whether they're running firewalls or NOT.

[Bonk]

...there are unbelievers among us...

 


Um, wait, this is serious. I've just presented my best evidence yet above.

[FA Frey XC]

Dizzy,

While I understand - probably more than many - your delightfully light-handed approach to tackling sensitive topics in our community, may I suggest that you realize that some people that have properly configured firewalls can run the game just fine.

It's your tone that most .. amuses me.

So, without further adieu....

 

[KBFLordKrueg]

Bonk, forget trying to explain it. Just post the rule and declare it's our way or the highway. Otherwise you'll be explaining till you're blue in the face because some just won't accept it no matter how logical it is. Those players will no longer be players. Good riddens.

Well, THAT'S what this RAPIDLY shrinking community needs...fewer players...

While I'm in favor of NOT running a firewall, your approach to the situation, as usual, is a bit OTT.

Don't ya think this horse is dead already? 

[Hexx]

Bonk, forget trying to explain it. Just post the rule and declare it's our way or the highway. Otherwise you'll be explaining till you're blue in the face because some just won't accept it no matter how logical it is. Those players will no longer be players. Good riddens.

Well, THAT'S what this RAPIDLY shrinking community needs...fewer players...

While I'm in favor of NOT running a firewall, your approach to the situation, as usual, is a bit OTT.

Don't ya think this horse is dead already? 

After only 2 pages?

Man we took shuttles to what... 7? 8? 16?

Yer getting old there Kruegy..

[FPF-Tobin Dax]

Bonk, forget trying to explain it. Just post the rule and declare it's our way or the highway. Otherwise you'll be explaining till you're blue in the face because some just won't accept it no matter how logical it is. Those players will no longer be players. Good riddens.

Well, THAT'S what this RAPIDLY shrinking community needs...fewer players...

While I'm in favor of NOT running a firewall, your approach to the situation, as usual, is a bit OTT.

Don't ya think this horse is dead already? 

After only 2 pages?

Man we took shuttles to what... 7? 8? 16?

Yer getting old there Kruegy..

It's not age, it's maturity. What Kreug said. 

[Hexx]

Bonk, forget trying to explain it. Just post the rule and declare it's our way or the highway. Otherwise you'll be explaining till you're blue in the face because some just won't accept it no matter how logical it is. Those players will no longer be players. Good riddens.

Well, THAT'S what this RAPIDLY shrinking community needs...fewer players...

While I'm in favor of NOT running a firewall, your approach to the situation, as usual, is a bit OTT.

Don't ya think this horse is dead already? 

After only 2 pages?

Man we took shuttles to what... 7? 8? 16?

Yer getting old there Kruegy..

It's not age, it's maturity. What Kreug said. 

<sigh>

We haven't had any sort of flame thing going on in a long time.
At this rate I'll NEVER end up getting one of those cool green "warned" things attached to my profile.
What happens if some hot chick drops by, sees my incredibly sexy posting style, but decides since I obviously haven't been
"warned" I'm not enough of a badass for her?
It could be over before it's begun!!!

I mean maybe *try* thinking about someone other than yourself ?

 Yer wish is my command, HexX

[Riskyllama]

I mean maybe *try* thinking about someone other than yourself ?

Yer wish is my command, HexX

Being new, do they come in other colors? Maybe teal for Camboro cartel?

[Lepton]

Hate to open a can of worms here as I do not know the answer to this question, but as far as I am concerned if a dyna server admin is running their dynaverse on what amounts a server that is supported by the community, a server admin should not be able to promulgate a rule that denies access to that server, particularly in this case this firewall thing.  Are most of these dynaverse campaigns run on the servers that are maintained by the Organization?  I know that far more people benefit from these "public servers" than actually contribute to their maintenance and upkeep, etc., but if this community is not a pay-to-play system, then there has to be some consideration paid to the community at-large.  Quite frankly if you have your own equipment and you want to make lunatic connection rules even based on ping, that is your perogative.

However, I chaffe at the intimation that somehow if someone puts together a dynaverse campaign, he or she can somehow set policy for the entire community as regards their internet security settings.  As I have said, I think first we are trying to be an open community.  Insisting on a set of conditions to even participate in a dynaverse campaign, I think, is a bit restrictive and counterproductive.  Further, if these campaigns are run via these "public" services provided by the Organization, I hardly see how someone who creates a campaign, i.e. the content of a server, should be able to set policy for access to these "public" services.  And that is a very qualified "public" I am using.  I believe we are not using servers fully maintained and funded by the community.  I am really trying not to step on any toes here, so I will say no more in this particular line of arguement. 

What I will simply say is that I do indeed play with no software firewalls as I have little choice in the matter if I even wish to connect to the dyna.  I don't think that anyone is particularly jeopardizing their system by dropping the software firewalls for a time, but I think it is wholly inappropriate to insist that they must.

Further while I have no doubt that software firewalls can play a role in mission instability, it would seem to me that mission instability was here long before I even knew what a software firewall was, before I even had one on my system, before this topic even came up.   Like I said, tempest in a teapot.

[Dizzy]

Lol, never thought you'd have the balls to give me a warning Frey. Well, Steven called and looks like we will get a paintball showdown at his place. Be there in June. May the man with the biggest balls win.

[Bonk]

Hate to open a can of worms here as I do not know the answer to this question, but as far as I am concerned if a dyna server admin is running their dynaverse on what amounts a server that is supported by the community, a server admin should not be able to promulgate a rule that denies access to that server, particularly in this case this firewall thing.  Are most of these dynaverse campaigns run on the servers that are maintained by the Organization?  I know that far more people benefit from these "public servers" than actually contribute to their maintenance and upkeep, etc., but if this community is not a pay-to-play system, then there has to be some consideration paid to the community at-large.  Quite frankly if you have your own equipment and you want to make lunatic connection rules even based on ping, that is your perogative.

However, I chaffe at the intimation that somehow if someone puts together a dynaverse campaign, he or she can somehow set policy for the entire community as regards their internet security settings.  As I have said, I think first we are trying to be an open community.  Insisting on a set of conditions to even participate in a dynaverse campaign, I think, is a bit restrictive and counterproductive.  Further, if these campaigns are run via these "public" services provided by the Organization, I hardly see how someone who creates a campaign, i.e. the content of a server, should be able to set policy for access to these "public" services.  And that is a very qualified "public" I am using.  I believe we are not using servers fully maintained and funded by the community.  I am really trying not to step on any toes here, so I will say no more in this particular line of arguement. 

Um, what dynaverse servers are you talking about? Did you read my posts above?

The community run servers The Forge (DGA) and Universe At War (CUGS) administrated by yours truly, would not be what they are and might not even run at all if not for me. I think I have a pretty significant say in how they are used. That said, I'll repeat what I said above: Anyone is welcome to play on The Forge or Universe At War regardless of what nasty crap they may be running on their PC, however, I reserve the right to only accept bug reports and feedback from those not running Software Firewalls and Antivirus (particularly Norton) while playing. Further I politely request that if you insist on using such crap stay well away from me on the map. When it comes to MySQL test servers I insist on no software firewalls for obvious reasons.

Further while I have no doubt that software firewalls can play a role in mission instability, it would seem to me that mission instability was here long before I even knew what a software firewall was, before I even had one on my system, before this topic even came up.   Like I said, tempest in a teapot.

I have been playing SFC since the start. Trust me, mission instability rose dramatically with the advent of software firewalls and the frenzied security paranoia we see today. Yes there were always connection issues, but mission stability has clearly suffered with the increasing popularity of software firewalls. Canada West Rule #9 was drafted to handle the relatively infrequent connection issues of the past. I have seen the effects of software firewalls on missions that used to work fine for us, yet in recent servers have been rejected due to "bug" reports. The effect is significant and real.

[Skaren]

OH OH, can I get the green warning too!

It will help me look like a real bad ass, for the upcoming Pirate Campaign,..

Lord knowns I will need all the help I can get.     



I never run a firewall, I am a network Admin, they cause more issues than they are worth.  The only time I would recommend one is if you do any online banking.  Noticed I snail mailed my donation check to Dyna,...  so obviously I don't think that is smart either.



I agree shouldn't the warning not be green, but like red or yellow alert or something     Isn't this a SFC site,  who is the idiot who made it green,....    There,.. after that insult maybe Frey will give me the warning  too    ))))))))))

PS I have heard about these flame fests and personally am looking forward to the next one !

PSS  Also it is great to read all the opinions on all the various topics on this form, it is a fine example of Democracy at work.

PSSS  after all the reading, I throw my weight in with Bonks opinion, he speaks with the most sense, of all of you.

[Dizzy]

Look, folks, here goes Bonk again eplaining software firewalls and how they are bad. He is turning blue in the face. What we are simply going to have to do is just ask you to please not use them. That's it. I mean, if you do and cause disconnects and CTD's, then that's on you and you're making the game a bad experience for everyone around you.

I think it's gonna come down to staying off the front lines completely if you just cant stand to turn off your software firewall because they are not compatible with how OP sets up mission hosts. I honestly wouldnt mind if players logged into the server with their firewalls on as long as they don't engage in PvP and arnt pissing off their wingmen/women with disconnects/CTD's and crap.

So there. I said it. Have your cake and eat it too. Can we move on now?

[Bartok]

That leaves DH's servers, Scipio's and Bartok's servers left to join the no software firewall club. Muhahahaha! For the players, resistance is futile. You will lower your shields and be assimilated into the collective or destroyed!

Greetings All -

Ok - I hadn't ducked into this thread in a while and just spent a half hour reading all the opines.   My first reaction was not to weigh in at all, and let this die as the solutions I believe are obvious to all.  Though, sometimes I think I need to get my post #'s up 

I'm honored to be able to put up a server every once in a while (homage to RDSL in the works).  While I have a great respect for some of the complex campaigns put together by others, I typically only run "fun" servers.  I call them these partly because I lack the technical ability to take it too far not using SQL as my backend so I can't do nifty things like change your ship or give you prestige points when u should've received them.  Not to mention all the other nifty possibilities of connecting via http: to make webmaps and shipyards available ( Thank you Bonk )   In time perhaps....

That being said - I can't really join a no firewalls club as I lack the means to follow through.  If I did have the means (and the time) I probably wouldn't bother as I feel as has been clearly, eloquently and plainly stated by several.

We are a small and self-regulating community and it has always been my experience that when folks are having connection "issues" (CTDS, causin lag etc.) they typically move off.  Nearly everyone I've encountered in this club/community has been this polite.

<S> To All

KBF Bartok

[Julin Eurthyr]

Let's be clear here.

Gaming is, probably, the hardest thing to do over the internet.  Anything that affects the unfettered, free, and frequent flow of data from user A to user B in a timely manner affects the gaming experience!!!.

Some things (internet outages, traffic, ie, LAG) are outside of our control.  Other things (like a firewall checking each packet to decide if it's an attack, and eventually blocking them), are within the user's control.

Experience has proven that the affects of a properly-tuned firewall's check isn't enough to interefere with the data-stream enough to affect the game.  People have played 100% stable games while protected by a software firewall.  I know, I used to have no problems when I had a copy of Zone Alarm that I could tell to open the SFC ports for, just like I have no problems playing through a properly-opened router.  And I've played missions with people who's firewalls were still allowing the data to flow freely.

Experience in my ISP job also tought me that the simplest way to reset a non-configuable software firewall is to uninstall it, reboot, and reinstall it.

When I get a chance, hopefully tonight or tomorrow night (5/3 and 5/4), I can get a chance to put this to test.  I'd like a software firewall-using volunteer to reinstall their firewall and join me on the Forge, for draft stability testing.  Let's see exactly how much of our stability vs. firewall issue is the firewall itself, and how much is "improper maintenance"...   

[Grim]

We are a small and self-regulating community and it has always been my experience that when folks are having connection "issues" (CTDS, causin lag etc.) they typically move off.  Nearly everyone I've encountered in this club/community has been this polite.

Precisely, that has been the case for years, hence the guideline which states if you have connection issues such as lag, drops, ctd's you either move off the front lines by going to a less pvp contested area, or log off until your issues are resolved. Over the years nearly everybody has followed this guideline and I don't see why we need to change this via forcing an authoritarian type situation such as banning people. What's next, we ban people who are on 56k from playing, due to slow load up times or lag?

I don't see how you can prove either that it is the software firewall that is causing drops, or ctd's in all circumstances, hell ive flown with people who i know for sure have no firewalls running same for myself and we get the occasional CTD or major lag.

[Bonk]

Considering what people are saying here, I think this bears repeating:

Read the text below very carefully (actually read it this time please):

Warning about Firewall and similar software

Most Firewall programs, Web Spam filters and other TCP/IP driver-based products (including spyware!) do not correctly implement the entire WinSock API. The shortcuts taken by the developers of such products cause Apache to fail. If you insist on leaving such programs installed, and have problems with your Apache installation, consider the suggestion below.

Problems Installing or Running Apache 2

If you encounter problems running Apache 2 under Windows, such as corrupted or incomplete file downloads, unexplained error messages, or a conflict with a software firewall, please place the following three directives in your httpd.conf configuration file to see if they eliminate the problems:

    EnableSendfile Off
    EnableMMAP Off
    Win32DisableAcceptEx

The general problem is that many people install various add-ons to windows (such as software firewalls, virus checkers, etc) that break some of the advanced functionality that Apache uses to speed the sending of files. The above directives turn off the advanced functionality and make Apache fall back to more basic (but slower) techniques. This resolves most, but not all of the potential problems. If you continue to experience problems, be certain that there is no spyware installed on the box, which exhibits exactly the same sorts of flaws (often more obviously).

If you encounter problems installing Apache .msi distributions, we have provided the TROUBLESHOOTING page to help you diagnose and fix most common installation problems.

http://www.apache.org/dist/httpd/binaries/win32/

I have come across this with Apache, in particular Norton/Symantec AV is known to interfere with AcceptEx. Perhaps people will be more inclined to believe the Apache developers than me...

I just searched the serverkit source for "WinSock"

Searching for 'WinSock'...
<individual results omitted for NDA compliance>
38 occurrence(s) have been found.

Looking at the files involved and code contexts I can safely say that the WinSock API is critical to the dynaverse serverkit, If I had a copy of the client source I'm quite sure I'd see similar results.

It does not matter how well the software firewall is configured, most of them do not implement the winsock API correctly, SFC depends on a proper winsock implementation, period.

You may experience some stable missions with a software firewall, but the fact is that they are completely unpredicatable (we do not have the source) How can you say that the (lets say) ~20% unstable missions you do experience are not due to the software firewall? You can't.

EDIT: Also, other conditions that the firewall may respond inappropriately to may or may not occur when you test it. Lets say the firewall goes super-horny when someone port scans your machine (which is not a threat with a secure configuration without a firewall), but it does not happen whiile you are testing - you will conclude the firewall is fine when it is not. There are countless scenarios like this.

Grrrr....     

* Bonk  takes deep breath... counts to 10...

[Bonk]

After a pause... some thoughts:

If people insist on running software firewalls while playing on the dynaverse I have the following options:

1) contact all software firewall manufacturers, obtain the SFC client source, modify the NDA and ask them to allow for full function of SFC's winsock and Accept implementations, providing both the client and server source.

2) Write my own open-source firewall that is compatible with SFC... (bing! hmmm... perhaps this is what I could do for the VMware ultimate appliance challenge... provide a gaming compatible linux NAT firewall VM... hmmm... might be possible...)

[Strat]

I like both of those...  At least having a open source FW and the OP Source code...

Get on it Bonk! 

[Dizzy]

Dizzy,

...may I suggest that you realize that some people that have properly configured firewalls can run the game just fine.

WRONG

It does not matter how well the software firewall is configured, most of them do not implement the winsock API correctly, SFC depends on a proper winsock implementation, period.

You arnt reading these posts frey. You are simply concerned for the 'greater good'. I get the big picture. It's no software firewwalls. That will lead to better play. I dont get it why peeps think having a software firewall option available for server play is cool. Can you explain why we should tolerate CTD's and disconnects even a little bit b4 someone gives up and moves off the front lines when it can be avoided in the 1st place??? Please explain that to me.

[Sirgod]

Lol, never thought you'd have the balls to give me a warning Frey. Well, Steven called and looks like we will get a paintball showdown at his place. Be there in June. May the man with the biggest balls win.

I will so Own you win It comes to not Being on the Dyna. 

Stephen

[Dizzy]

Lol, never thought you'd have the balls to give me a warning Frey. Well, Steven called and looks like we will get a paintball showdown at his place. Be there in June. May the man with the biggest balls win.

I will so Own you win It comes to not Being on the Dyna. 

Stephen

I'm gonna buy the most expensive sniper paintgun and the fastest auto-paintgun with the biggest clip so you better hope your leathers and gear cover all your skin or you're gonna be in a world of hurt! Muhahahahaha

[Sirgod]

Lol, never thought you'd have the balls to give me a warning Frey. Well, Steven called and looks like we will get a paintball showdown at his place. Be there in June. May the man with the biggest balls win.

I will so Own you win It comes to not Being on the Dyna. 

Stephen

I'm gonna buy the most expensive sniper paintgun and the fastest auto-paintgun with the biggest clip so you better hope your leathers and gear cover all your skin or you're gonna be in a world of hurt! Muhahahahaha

Oh Paint, Yeh I can rig the old Bren ten and Dragon to fire Paint... I have a basic Machine shop here. 

Stephen

[Strat]

I have an idea:

Let put together a committee.  We'll call it...  the United Naggers (UN).

First:  We send inspectors to see if the FWs actually cuase problems by setting up a test server, and by using the scientific method test specific Firewalls (all users on the Dyna have the same brand, version and settings), and keep statistical records of any crashes or disconnects or whatever.

Then we Bushify the situation and make grandiose clames of thier harm and true evil intent with our new information.  We'll even get Sattilite photo's on the PCs actually disconnecting...

After that we'll sit for weeks arguing about how Firewalls have ignore our demands and sit while we discuss a chapter 7 (How to ban or other exercise some kind of punitive action).

We'll overthrow the Dynaverse, impose a new government, and wind up splitting the community into several peices!

Hmm, this all seems oddly familiar...

 

[Sirgod]

I have an idea:

Let put together a committee.  We'll call it...  the United Naggers (UN).

First:  We send inspectors to see if the FWs actually cuase problems by setting up a test server, and by using the scientific method test specific Firewalls (all users on the Dyna have the same brand, version and settings), and keep statistical records of any crashes or disconnects or whatever.

Then we Bushify the situation and make grandiose clames of thier harm and true evil intent with our new information.  We'll even get Sattilite photo's on the PCs actually disconnecting...

After that we'll sit for weeks arguing about how Firewalls have ignore our demands and sit while we discuss a chapter 7 (How to ban or other exercise some kind of punitive action).

We'll overthrow the Dynaverse, impose a new government, and wind up splitting the community into several peices!

Hmm, this all seems oddly familiar...

 

Do Dizzy, Myself and Ferrit, get to use Paint Ball guns?

Stephen

[Strat]

Do Dizzy, Myself and Ferrit, get to use Paint Ball guns?

Stephen

That or Nuculear Bombs!

[Sirgod]

Do Dizzy, Myself and Ferrit, get to use Paint Ball guns?

Stephen

That or Nuculear Bombs!

Game set Match!

Stephen

[Hexx]

Do Dizzy, Myself and Ferrit, get to use Paint Ball guns?

Stephen

That or Nuculear Bombs!

Game set Match!

Stephen

???
C'mon
Paintball is so much more fun, ya shoot the guy, he cries in pain and calls himself out, you don't hear him so you shoot him again, he starts cursing that your gun is running hot,
you claim it isn't,shoot him again to prove it, admit he might have a point, then have your finger slip and accidentaly shoot him again.
(True story)

Nuclear bombs are so...dulll.

[Dfly]

Perhaps decidedly late on this, but I am surprised that someone actually got banned for a week yet it took this long to see a warning come up for the oposite side.  Also surprised no one commented on this.  I have nothing against anyone for this, but just seemed strange is all.  I understand the "fear" of firewalls has hit an all-time high and they dont help the situation.  It does not mean that I would "tell" someone they "must" turn them off.  I am glad Dizzy reposted his opinion on it and I agree totally that anyone who knowingly(and they mostly know who there are) have connection issues are to stay off the front lines.

[Bonk]

Perhaps decidedly late on this, but I am surprised that someone actually got banned for a week yet it took this long to see a warning come up for the oposite side.  Also surprised no one commented on this.

Swallowing my considerable anger at this post...

Why has nobody commented on this? Because Dizzy never made a personal attack on anyone in the original thread.

Please read: Dynaverse.net Terms & Conditions

In particular:

The Dynaverse.Net website may contain bulletin boards, chat rooms, access to mailing lists or other message or communication facilities. The user agrees, when taking advantage of such facilities, not to do any of the following:

(a) defame, abuse, harass, stalk, threaten or otherwise violate the legal, moral, or human rights of others (such as rights of privacy and publicity);

If you check the original thread:
http://www.dynaverse.net/forum/index.php/topic,163366481.0.html

You will see that Lepton and Likkerpig were in clear violation of this policy, and received a one week ban according to our protocol, Dizzy was not violating any forum rules whatsoever in his post on the subject.

Likkerpig, sadly, has decided to leave us permanently because he did not agree with Dizzy's decree. He could have simply opted to not play on Dizzy's servers. Its too bad he'll miss out on Economy Wars and Storm Season Two. I'll miss our CubCarson and hope he'll reconsider.

I would ask that you rescind your implied accusation of administrative bias. Please be aware of all the facts before making such comments, thank you.

I understand the "fear" of firewalls has hit an all-time high and they dont help the situation.

There is no "fear" involved here, it is simple common sense and extensive experience speaking. Where the "fear" is involved is the irrational "fear" that the firewall producers foster in users to flog their products.

[Dfly]

I guess the part of my comments: "I have nothing against anyone for this, but just seemed strange is all" have no influence on when you only cover part of my posting.

I am sorry you feel this is an attack as it was not really meant to be, but just a comment not intending to target anyone in particular.  As per Likkerpig, I fully understand his frustation with comments by Dizzy but hope he does come back too.  Dizzy has a way of getting under people's skin with some of his comments.  I do hope you dont see this as an attack on him too. Actually I had not realized Lepton and Likkerpig had been banned.

Pehaps I did not word the "fear" part properly.  Actually I know I did not.  You are correct in telling that it is the "People" who write and sell these programs that instill the "fear" of the internet user.

[Dfly]

Part of my bad reasoning has to do with my being at home SICK this week.  My mind is not fully functional

[Bonk]

I guess the part of my comments: "I have nothing against anyone for this, but just seemed strange is all" have no influence on when you only cover part of my posting.

I saw that and understood. But that is not how it read as that qualifier appears later in the post. I just felt obliged to explain why it was not strange at all.

[Dfly]

Next time I will make sure the qualifier appear first, even if it does not make much sense

[Sirgod]

Perhaps decidedly late on this, but I am surprised that someone actually got banned for a week yet it took this long to see a warning come up for the oposite side.  Also surprised no one commented on this.

Swallowing my considerable anger at this post...

Why has nobody commented on this? Because Dizzy never made a personal attack on anyone in the original thread.

Please read: Dynaverse.net Terms & Conditions

In particular:

The Dynaverse.Net website may contain bulletin boards, chat rooms, access to mailing lists or other message or communication facilities. The user agrees, when taking advantage of such facilities, not to do any of the following:

(a) defame, abuse, harass, stalk, threaten or otherwise violate the legal, moral, or human rights of others (such as rights of privacy and publicity);

If you check the original thread:
http://www.dynaverse.net/forum/index.php/topic,163366481.0.html

You will see that Lepton and Likkerpig were in clear violation of this policy, and received a one week ban according to our protocol, Dizzy was not violating any forum rules whatsoever in his post on the subject.

Likkerpig, sadly, has decided to leave us permanently because he did not agree with Dizzy's decree. He could have simply opted to not play on Dizzy's servers. Its too bad he'll miss out on Economy Wars and Storm Season Two. I'll miss our CubCarson and hope he'll reconsider.

I would ask that you rescind your implied accusation of administrative bias. Please be aware of all the facts before making such comments, thank you.

I understand the "fear" of firewalls has hit an all-time high and they dont help the situation.

There is no "fear" involved here, it is simple common sense and extensive experience speaking. Where the "fear" is involved is the irrational "fear" that the firewall producers foster in users to flog their products.

I agree with this 100%.  Likker was a decent guy, and a Good member here, He also had alot of Problems. Not the typical substance abuse thing, but some Mental problems. If and when he ever decides to contact us again, I woulld still help him out.

as for the situation Re: Firewalls, I really can't offer much as I'm the only sat User here. I wish to all hell, that I could Play with you guys, but a solid Con is beyond my means.

Once or twice a year, I manage to get ahold of a few People, and Play on my home LAN.

That reminds me, July 29th - 31st will be the next get together. Bring your PC to my ranch, and of course I'll provide the beef.

Now , Here's where It get's tricky. June 3rd. I'm doing a mans retreat, a way to get away from it all, Camping Fishing, and rune stones here at a park in Oklahoma. I know Dizzy will be here, as he want's to be shot with my paintball gun, don't ask me why, I guess he's a sadist.

But the thing is, My Nephew Brett, and my Grandson Julius, have never been Camping. I feel It's this old mans duty to provide that experience. Of course, I consider Frey, StormBringer, sethan, and Reluctantly  Dizzy Family. I mean Dizzy does live in southern OK after all. 

Stephen

[762_XC]

To address your comment Dfly, from an admin's standpoint (at least when acting in that role), there are no "sides". Someone either breaks the rules or does not.

The two members who broke the rules were banned.

[Dfly]

thx 762, what I was referring to was the 2 sides of the conversation or arguement, not the admins vs type. 

[762_XC]

That's what I figured you meant. My point was whatever side the admin comes in on in the dispute, he has to forget about sides while putting the admin hat on.

[Dizzy]

I mean Dizzy does live in southern OK after all. 

OMG! When Texas secedes from the nation, takes over Mexico and Cuba, Oklahoma is next!

[Just plain old Punisher]

Those who use firewalls will be shot! Those who don't use firewalls will get itchy rashes on their neither-regions!

The punisher has spoken!

[Hexx]

Those who use firewalls will be shot! Those who don't use firewalls will get itchy rashes on their neither-regions!

That's where that came from...

[Just plain old Punisher]

Here's a tip: Shaving your pubes won't make it go away either.

Enjoy!

[Sirgod]

I mean Dizzy does live in southern OK after all. 

OMG! When Texas secedes from the nation, takes over Mexico and Cuba, Oklahoma is next!

To quote Someone who is an Honarary Okie... "Come get some Biatch." 

Stephen

[likkerpig]

I agree with this 100%.  Likker was a decent guy, and a Good member here, He also had alot of Problems. Not the typical substance abuse thing, but some Mental problems. If and when he ever decides to contact us again, I woulld still help him out.

as for the situation Re: Firewalls, I really can't offer much as I'm the only sat User here. I wish to all hell, that I could Play with you guys, but a solid Con is beyond my means.

Once or twice a year, I manage to get ahold of a few People, and Play on my home LAN.

That reminds me, July 29th - 31st will be the next get together. Bring your PC to my ranch, and of course I'll provide the beef.

Now , Here's where It get's tricky. June 3rd. I'm doing a mans retreat, a way to get away from it all, Camping Fishing, and rune stones here at a park in Oklahoma. I know Dizzy will be here, as he want's to be shot with my paintball gun, don't ask me why, I guess he's a sadist.

But the thing is, My Nephew Brett, and my Grandson Julius, have never been Camping. I feel It's this old mans duty to provide that experience. Of course, I consider Frey, StormBringer, sethan, and Reluctantly  Dizzy Family. I mean Dizzy does live in southern OK after all. 

Stephen

Hmmm, see I am allowed back... been awhile since a ban, feels good.
Errr, umm, thanks for calling attention to my "mental" issues Stephan... I dunno, maybe being regarded as a drunk is better?
Anyhoo, will apologize to Dizzy, said some nasty things that were uncalled for. It wasn't the message (I turn off everything, including going through my processes tab when playing online games) but the way it was delivered... and the subsiqent fight with Lepton.
An explination, doesn't really belong here but what the hell.
Been out of work for 4 months with no unemployment benifits, stress building up, etc, etc... blew up a bit here, whole bunch more other places.
Heh, unemployed in a province with near 0 unemployment, quite a feat.
Anyhow, got two crappy low paying jobs now, 80+ hour work weeks so I won't be around to play anything anyway. Somehow through a fluke of scheduling got today off.
Time for some cheap beer I think.
Take care all.

[762_XC]

WB likker.

[Sirgod]

Likker's a  fellow Perve. He get's a pass on the stephen scale.

Stephen

[Sirgod]

I agree with this 100%.  Likker was a decent guy, and a Good member here, He also had alot of Problems. Not the typical substance abuse thing, but some Mental problems. If and when he ever decides to contact us again, I woulld still help him out.

as for the situation Re: Firewalls, I really can't offer much as I'm the only sat User here. I wish to all hell, that I could Play with you guys, but a solid Con is beyond my means.

Once or twice a year, I manage to get ahold of a few People, and Play on my home LAN.

That reminds me, July 29th - 31st will be the next get together. Bring your PC to my ranch, and of course I'll provide the beef.

Now , Here's where It get's tricky. June 3rd. I'm doing a mans retreat, a way to get away from it all, Camping Fishing, and rune stones here at a park in Oklahoma. I know Dizzy will be here, as he want's to be shot with my paintball gun, don't ask me why, I guess he's a sadist.

But the thing is, My Nephew Brett, and my Grandson Julius, have never been Camping. I feel It's this old mans duty to provide that experience. Of course, I consider Frey, StormBringer, sethan, and Reluctantly  Dizzy Family. I mean Dizzy does live in southern OK after all. 

Stephen

Hmmm, see I am allowed back... been awhile since a ban, feels good.
Errr, umm, thanks for calling attention to my "mental" issues Stephan... I dunno, maybe being regarded as a drunk is better?
Anyhoo, will apologize to Dizzy, said some nasty things that were uncalled for. It wasn't the message (I turn off everything, including going through my processes tab when playing online games) but the way it was delivered... and the subsiqent fight with Lepton.
An explination, doesn't really belong here but what the hell.
Been out of work for 4 months with no unemployment benifits, stress building up, etc, etc... blew up a bit here, whole bunch more other places.
Heh, unemployed in a province with near 0 unemployment, quite a feat.
Anyhow, got two crappy low paying jobs now, 80+ hour work weeks so I won't be around to play anything anyway. Somehow through a fluke of scheduling got today off.
Time for some cheap beer I think.
Take care all.

Man I apoligize for that. I thought It was well known, But If It wasn't, I would have never said anything to Jeapordise our friendship. Your a good guy man, and once again, I apoligise, as It was a poor joke on my part.

Stephen

[FPF-Tobin Dax]

May I suggest that you have the admins edit the references out so future readers don't see it.

[likkerpig]

Man I apoligize for that. I thought It was well known, But If It wasn't, I would have never said anything to Jeapordise our friendship. Your a good guy man, and once again, I apoligise, as It was a poor joke on my part.

Stephen

LOL, no problem Stephan... it is pretty well known... plus it let me make a booze joke which is always a plus!
Plus them wrap around sweaters they give you at the "hospital" are damn comfy and stylish!

[Bonk]

Glad to see you back Likkerpig! I understand your position/situation quite well. I've got my own issues and have been unemployed for over 9 months now.

Anyway, I'm just glad to see ya back and hope you can get a chance to join in on the upcoming pirate fun, even for just a little bit. Looks like its going to be a hoot! Arrrrrr! 

[IAF Lyrkiller]

Perhaps decidedly late on this, but I am surprised that someone actually got banned for a week yet it took this long to see a warning come up for the oposite side.  Also surprised no one commented on this.

Swallowing my considerable anger at this post...

Why has nobody commented on this? Because Dizzy never made a personal attack on anyone in the original thread.

Please read: Dynaverse.net Terms & Conditions

In particular:

The Dynaverse.Net website may contain bulletin boards, chat rooms, access to mailing lists or other message or communication facilities. The user agrees, when taking advantage of such facilities, not to do any of the following:

(a) defame, abuse, harass, stalk, threaten or otherwise violate the legal, moral, or human rights of others (such as rights of privacy and publicity);

If you check the original thread:
http://www.dynaverse.net/forum/index.php/topic,163366481.0.html

You will see that Lepton and Likkerpig were in clear violation of this policy, and received a one week ban according to our protocol, Dizzy was not violating any forum rules whatsoever in his post on the subject.

Likkerpig, sadly, has decided to leave us permanently because he did not agree with Dizzy's decree. He could have simply opted to not play on Dizzy's servers. Its too bad he'll miss out on Economy Wars and Storm Season Two. I'll miss our CubCarson and hope he'll reconsider.

I would ask that you rescind your implied accusation of administrative bias. Please be aware of all the facts before making such comments, thank you.

I understand the "fear" of firewalls has hit an all-time high and they dont help the situation.

There is no "fear" involved here, it is simple common sense and extensive experience speaking. Where the "fear" is involved is the irrational "fear" that the firewall producers foster in users to flog their products.

I agree with this 100%.  Likker was a decent guy, and a Good member here, He also had alot of Problems. Not the typical substance abuse thing, but some Mental problems. If and when he ever decides to contact us again, I woulld still help him out.

as for the situation Re: Firewalls, I really can't offer much as I'm the only sat User here. I wish to all hell, that I could Play with you guys, but a solid Con is beyond my means.

Once or twice a year, I manage to get ahold of a few People, and Play on my home LAN.

That reminds me, July 29th - 31st will be the next get together. Bring your PC to my ranch, and of course I'll provide the beef.

Now , Here's where It get's tricky. June 3rd. I'm doing a mans retreat, a way to get away from it all, Camping Fishing, and rune stones here at a park in Oklahoma. I know Dizzy will be here, as he want's to be shot with my paintball gun, don't ask me why, I guess he's a sadist.

But the thing is, My Nephew Brett, and my Grandson Julius, have never been Camping. I feel It's this old mans duty to provide that experience. Of course, I consider Frey, StormBringer, sethan, and Reluctantly  Dizzy Family. I mean Dizzy does live in southern OK after all. 

Stephen

Stephen, I also live in the area. I live closer to Frey then anyone on the forum.

Now, I have noticeed that everytime I did disable my sw firewall, I get attacked about 3 minutes of playing on the Forge.
I looked at the forms of the port attack sw that they are using and it is for SP1 and lower. I have SP2 and SP3.
these attacks happen multiple times. will keep you guys updated

[Bonk]

Nobody is questioning whether attacks will be attempted... they will, there is no doubt.

What I am saying is that they will actually have less of an effect on your PC and network connection if you are not running a software firewall at all. (assuming of course your OS and running software is up to date and securely configured).

99.9999% of these "attacks" pose no threat whatsoever.

The concept here is that how a software firewall responds to a harmless "attack" is far more of a problem than the "attack" itself. What they do to the tcp/ip stack even in the absence of any attacks is inexcusable...

[Bonk]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! 

I just got this google ad on the last load of this thread:

Colonics Made Easy
Effective and safe home colonics. The easy way to colon cleansing.    

Colon Cleanses
Does a Healthy Colon Matter to you? For the Latest in Colon Cleansing.

ROFL!!!  Snort!  What is the google ad spider trying to tell me? Too mucking fuch man...   

[Mazeppa]

as for the situation Re: Firewalls, I really can't offer much as I'm the only sat User here. I wish to all hell, that I could Play with you guys, but a solid Con is beyond my means.

Once or twice a year, I manage to get ahold of a few People, and Play on my home LAN.

That reminds me, July 29th - 31st will be the next get together. Bring your PC to my ranch, and of course I'll provide the beef.

Now , Here's where It get's tricky. June 3rd. I'm doing a mans retreat, a way to get away from it all, Camping Fishing, and rune stones here at a park in Oklahoma. I know Dizzy will be here, as he want's to be shot with my paintball gun, don't ask me why, I guess he's a sadist.

But the thing is, My Nephew Brett, and my Grandson Julius, have never been Camping. I feel It's this old mans duty to provide that experience. Of course, I consider Frey, StormBringer, sethan, and Reluctantly  Dizzy Family. I mean Dizzy does live in southern OK after all. 

Stephen

I am amazed that you have not considered going to a hotel in OKC that has Internet availability and trying to play there.  Might be a fun weekend, and some of the places are pretty cheap. 

May I suggest the Quality Inn, I-240 & S Western?  Decent room, good rates, very nice staff, excellent continental breakfast (with a waffle iron!) within walking distance of several restaraunts and a booty bar, and good connectivity.  I had no problems using my Palm to connect to the Internet.

Will it work for SFCOP?  I dunno, but you could explain your situation, and ask for 30 minutes to test the thing.  If it works, by all means go play one weekend a month!

Also, is dial-up out of the question? 

[Mazeppa]

(Ecclesiastes 1:9-14 NIV) What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun. {10} Is there anything of which one can say, "Look! This is something new"? It was here already, long ago; it was here before our time.

I support Dizzy's position to require software firewall's and AV software to be OFF while playing on the Dynaverse.  I propose the community try it his way for three servers, and see how it goes.  I'll bet his solution ends up fixing a LOT of the connection issues. 

I've been watching this thread with interest.  Since I'm retired, and am not going to play, I really don't have dog in this fight.  But I have some thoughts, based on seven years of online play. 

It takes a MASSIVE amount of work to set up a Dynaverse server.  I imagine server admins  take a great deal of pride in their work, and their storyline.  It must be very, very frustrating to get all the angry e-mails and PM's from players that are CONVINCED that some dirty so-and-so is a cheat, because they contunually drop when the are to play. 

I don't think anyone is a cheat.  Maybe some people really push the envelope, and we have some rules lawyers,  but I have serious doubts at this stage of the game that anyone in this community fires up the computer planning to cheat.  So the problem of dropped connections is not a cheat, but a more innocent, but troublesome, technical issue.

If you have a flaky connection, and everybody and their mother is fighting for a critical hex 30 minutes before the VC count, the temptation to sneak in and take just one quick mission must be overwhelming.  Unfortunately, the moment you try to do so, you draft three legendary opponents (who took sick days and have been playing for 20 solid hours) in the best ships their side has, everyone crashes, one of them gets the Hand of Bethke and loses their ship,  and the cries of anguish are a thing to behold. Or you go somewhere where you think you are off the front lines, and get jumped anyway.  And CTD. 

When the game started, we had connection issues, but I remember playing 3 v 3 campaign battles in SFC1.  We did it on dial up.  We slowed the game down to speed 6, and connected via IP. Each fleet made sure that their players used voice settings that were easy on bandwidth.  We all used the same voice client, Battlecom.  We made sure that we ran a lean system, and did not have non-gamin programs taking up memory or clock cycles.  I remember taking pride in having NOTHING in my system tray, and having 93% system resources free on boot-up.  I had a GAMING rig, and the other programs I used, such as Office, were for the other things I did when I was not gaming. 

Then with SFC2, and the Mirak, we had all those missiles, and lots of new players that connected via AOL.  Some of us gently suggesgted the AOL folks get a better ISP, and the outrage from the AOL players was huge. 

People with dial-up have a problem with playing the game and dealing with voice chat.  That's because we don't bother anymore to get everybody to configure their voice setting in a bandwidth-efficient manner, and data packets between dial-up and broadband are not standardized .  If someone has bandwidth to burn, those people tend to forget our dial-up brethren, or feel they should get broadband. 

Keep in mind that this game should be able to run on dial-up and a P-II 500 64MB memory, using  W98.  Many of us have done it.  But in 2006, we have processor and memory to burn, so maybe we don't worry so much about how to run a lean system.  Many users have applications running that may grab critical resources at a critical moment. 

I use Zone Alarm, and have the thing properly configured.  My router is also configured right.  But Bonk has convinced me with his networking API technobabble that, even when I have taken all reasonable measures at my end, many AV and software firewalls cause random instability.[/u]   If I were to play this game again, I'd disable the software firewall, and my AV program, and have big post-it notes everywhere reminding me to set them up again after a gaming session. 

I don't see intrusions anymore through the software firewall.  The router takes care of it.  My software firewall is mostly a final check, and I like knowing when certain programs try and access the Internet.  But I can do without that security blanket while gaming. 

I suggest that the community go along with Dizzy's rule (since the server operator community is pretty tight, you might as well, or you could get locked out.  Or STFU and set up your own server.      ) for the next three major servers, and see what happens.  Again, I'll bet Dizzy's plan fixes a lot of problems. 

People spend too much time playing this game, and the server admins spend too much time on this game, to not take this simple, reasonable step to ensure game stability. 

[Bonk]

Thank you very much for that very well written comment. It puts it in terms people can understand, I have a tendency to overcomplicate things. You made some excellent points there.

Keep in mind that this game should be able to run on dial-up and a P-II 500 64MB memory, using  W98.  Many of us have done it.

I ran it on a Pentium 233MHz with 64 MB and a 4 MB video card on Win95B for years. (I skipped W98 and waited for Win2K)

I remember taking pride in having NOTHING in my system tray, and having 93% system resources free on boot-up.

WURD!!!

Everybody listen to the wise old Klingon!

Good point about voice too... TS on certain settings can be a hideous bandwidth hog. I stuck with RW and its tight gsm codec for years.

Re: Stephen - most hotels are probably using routers to connect their rooms and are unwilling to forward ports. (Probably cuz the security guard at the desk is playing BF1942 all night and needs the ports! lol...) A backup dial-up connection might be a better solution.

[Lepton]

This thread still going on?  Zeppa, I really think you might want to analyze the assumptions inherent in your arguements.

[Dizzy]

Thanks Maz... Some of your post was hilarious! "Moving off the frontlines and getting drafted anyway and CTD" haha - have had that happen. "Moving in during the last few mins of the server to run a mission and draft 3 legendary captains, big ships and all and everyone CTD's" hah - have had that happen too. Good advice on setting up your system. Everyone just 'expects' games to run these days and to put up with whatever the player happens to be running on their comp. It's certainly not like the good ole days when you had to configure and reconfigure again in order to get the game to run. I think maybe some peeps have forgotten that... forgotten that the game is 6 years old.

STFU Lepton.

[Mazeppa]

This thread still going on?  Zeppa, I really think you might want to analyze the assumptions inherent in your arguements.

Lepton,

Thanks for the input. 

[SkyFlyer]

Don't bother playing if you leave your antivirus or firewall on.


Thats as simple as it gets.


Unless you participate in activities that put you on the top of a hackers list (torrents, warez, and/or porn) AND have a static IP.... You really have nothing to worry about.

I haven't used a firewall for years... and have yet to have someone attack my system.

[Mazeppa]

Didn't mean to say eliminate, just greatly reduce 

And when Storm Season 3 comes about, there will be a rule something like this:

Please make sure your internet connection and computer are as stable as possible.   Make sure you've disabled your A/V, firewall, and any updaters that may be running on your machine.  Also, make sure you are running as few proceses as possible on your computer to help with system performance.

Back when I was running W98, I continually bought computer magazines and stayed current on ways to keep my computer in shape.  I now have Windows XP, and no longer spend a few hours a week reading up on Windows stuff. 

I just did a ctrl/alt/del to bring up the task manager, and found....46 processes running.  Since I'm not running a gaming rig anymore (chess is processor intensive at times, but lag and connection issues are not a big deal on chess servers, except in blitz games.)  I realize the onus of finding about all those processes is on the user.  My eyes glaze over at the concept of researching all 46 of those processes. 

Can anyone recommend a web site or list of processes to figure out what is what as people try and eliminate useless processes?

I'm not planning to play until summer, but can see that this may be an issue for other people.   

P.S. Extra props to anyone that can tell me how to kill realsched.exe without uninstalling Real Player.  That d**m thing just won't die. 

[KBFLordKrueg]

Didn't mean to say eliminate, just greatly reduce 

And when Storm Season 3 comes about, there will be a rule something like this:

Please make sure your internet connection and computer are as stable as possible.   Make sure you've disabled your A/V, firewall, and any updaters that may be running on your machine.  Also, make sure you are running as few proceses as possible on your computer to help with system performance.

Back when I was running W98, I continually bought computer magazines and stayed current on ways to keep my computer in shape.  I now have Windows XP, and no longer spend a few hours a week reading up on Windows stuff. 

I just did a ctrl/alt/del to bring up the task manager, and found....46 processes running.  Since I'm not running a gaming rig anymore (chess is processor intensive at times, but lag and connection issues are not a big deal on chess servers, except in blitz games.)  I realize the onus of finding about all those processes is on the user.  My eyes glaze over at the concept of researching all 46 of those processes. 

Can anyone recommend a web site or list of processes to figure out what is what as people try and eliminate useless processes?

I'm not planning to play until summer, but can see that this may be an issue for other people.   

P.S. Extra props to anyone that can tell me how to kill realsched.exe without uninstalling Real Player.  That d**m thing just won't die. 

I've discovered BattleField 2 is also a system/connection demanding game and simply followed the instructions included with the game for optimizing performance:
Go to your WIN task manager (Control+Alt+Delete), go to Processes, click User name to sort. Then select all processes with user name, but DO NOT select one from System, Local Service or Network Service groups. Also, Do Not select the explorer.exe or taskmgr.exe items. Click End Process. You may receive a warning message, if so click Yes. the selected item then disappears from the list. these processes will be restarted when you restsrt your computer.
It's a minor pain to do this each time, but, I've also only a few items I shut down, 27 running processes total, with only 3 I shut down, and it only takes me min or two.
I don't know of any websites, etc that might list such, but, I would make sure first to run a good adware program to detect anything that may be there, as well as possibly dumping any older, unused programs.

[Dizzy]

Bonk's Firewall Detector will be tested on the next SG server. If you are found to be running one, you will be warned once then banned from the SG server.

[FPF-DieHard]

Can anyone recommend a web site or list of processes to figure out what is what as people try and eliminate useless processes?

I'm not planning to play until summer, but can see that this may be an issue for other people.   

P.S. Extra props to anyone that can tell me how to kill realsched.exe without uninstalling Real Player.  That d**m thing just won't die. 

www.google.com   

Not being a smartass, just Google the name of the proccess and you'll find something that will tell you if it's spyware or not.

[Wraith 413]

 Try this link for learning about WinXP processes.   http://www.pcstats.com/articleview.cfm?articleID=1759

There are better and more informative articles out on the web.

           

[KBF MalaK]

Bonk's Firewall Detector will be tested on the next SG server. If you are found to be running one, you will be warned once then banned from the SG server.

firewall detector ?? This gonna try opening ports that are vunerable and if they don't open- a firewall is assumed ??

S'cuse me if I say that I'm lucky to have a stable DIAL-UP connection at all and to know that my computer will be subject to a port scan to verify that my FW is actually disabled is unacceptable to me.

Can't we trust each other ??

I've had funky missions with a disabled FW and was politely asked to fly solo missions on obscure parts of the map- and gladly did so for everyone elses enjoyment so I don't understand why all the talk of banning. As much as I enjoy playing with all you folks I may pass on the next server.

[Dizzy]

Malak, didnt think anyone still used DU. Well, u have a point. I'll prolly ask everyone to use an account name that ends with CBL or DSL or DU so we know what they are on and FD's can be used on a per case basis simply because NO we cannot trust one another. Too often people think their firewall is fine because all the other games they play have no issues. Problem is this game's code was done b4 firewalls started being used and the way drafting works, firewalls screw it all up for everyone. You know, I'm starting to explain myself and I said I wouldn't... so I'll stop here and just say deal with it or don't play the server.

[Sirgod]

Malak, didnt think anyone still used DU. Well, u have a point. I'll prolly ask everyone to use an account name that ends with CBL or DSL or DU so we know what they are on and FD's can be used on a per case basis simply because NO we cannot trust one another. Too often people think their firewall is fine because all the other games they play have no issues. Problem is this game's code was done b4 firewalls started being used and the way drafting works, firewalls screw it all up for everyone. You know, I'm starting to explain myself and I said I wouldn't... so I'll stop here and just say deal with it or don't play the server.

Hey if your doing that, I'll try after this ice storm to re-install, and add Sat after my call sign, if it's ok with you.

Peeps, have no idea how much I miss playing on the dyna.

Stephen

[Lepton]

Why was this thread resurrected?  If there is a message to be given about the server rules, let's do it in a more direct way and open way.  No need to drag up the past.

[KBF-Crim]

Why was this thread resurrected?  If there is a message to be given about the server rules, let's do it in a more direct way and open way.  No need to drag up the past.

No message I could see....read up and you'll see that maz was looking to kill a few apps running in XP...nothing more...