Topic: Forge AI Complaint. (Read 7836 times)

Alphageek · « **on:** April 25, 2006, 01:51:00 pm »

Normally I don't complain about AI on a server, but this time I have to. The Forge AI is absolutely ridiculous. Without exception I have been severely outmanned and outgunned on almost every single mission I have TRIED to fly on the Forge. Flying a D6K, which counts as a light cruiser, I will draw a light pirate cruiser, plus a heavy Fed cruiser and two other light Fed cruisers. Oftentimes the Fed cruisers are carriers and there is almost always a drone cruiser.

The mission that made me make this post was run with SS. I was flying a D7C and he was in a dreadnought. I drafted. We got a heavy pirate cruiser and 4 heavy Hydran cruisers, all carriers.

I'm not sure what adjustments were made between the old server and this one but something needs to be done. I am flying 6 missions for every 1 successful one. For some reason it seems that the worse the ship you fly the more brutal the AI is. The other day I winged with people flying D5D's and they only drew ONE light cruiser.

KBFLordKrueg · « **Reply #1 on:** April 25, 2006, 03:01:58 pm »

Quote from: F9thalphageek on April 25, 2006, 01:51:00 pm

Normally I don't complain about AI on a server, but this time I have to. The Forge AI is absolutely ridiculous. Without exception I have been severely outmanned and outgunned on almost every single mission I have TRIED to fly on the Forge. Flying a D6K, which counts as a light cruiser, I will draw a light pirate cruiser, plus a heavy Fed cruiser and two other light Fed cruisers. Oftentimes the Fed cruisers are carriers and there is almost always a drone cruiser.

The mission that made me make this post was run with SS. I was flying a D7C and he was in a dreadnought. I drafted. We got a heavy pirate cruiser and 4 heavy Hydran cruisers, all carriers.

I'm not sure what adjustments were made between the old server and this one but something needs to be done. I am flying 6 missions for every 1 successful one. For some reason it seems that the worse the ship you fly the more brutal the AI is. The other day I winged with people flying D5D's and they only drew ONE light cruiser.

Yes, the new Evil Dave missions are most challenging, aren't they? Very refreshing.

They will definitely make you think before charging in.

Some tips:
In the missions with the Pirate, all ships from both sides converge on the pirate first.
If it's closer to you, follow your AI in, killing the pirate quickly so your AI will help you vs the incoming enemy ships.
If it's closer the THEM, ignore it, and try to take out the enemy biggest ship first.

And the biggest thing, is GET A BETTER SHIP.

D5L, D5D, D5E are the best bets at the current game year, IMO.
D7C is good, but a little pwr hungry and the Dizzy arcs are more limited than the D5 class.
I flew with you the other night, made several suggestions for great Klingon ships other than that deathtrap of a D6K you were flying.
You shrugged them off...

Vs lots of Hydran AI, I would recommend a D5E, it'll chew up fighter squads like crazy.
Considering how far apart the opposing sides still are, might as well make it easier on yourself vs. only AI, get something cheesy to put the smack-down on them and it'll make it easier to learn the individual missions as far as AI behavior and what the missions parameters are.

All of those missions are winnable, maybe not always easily, but very winnable.

I'll be happy to wing with you again. We'll get on TS and I'll be happy to give you any advice you desire on flying Klingon ships if you'd like.

The lack of heavy crunch weapons does require some different tactics from you may be used to.

Hexx · « **Reply #2 on:** April 25, 2006, 03:25:29 pm »

Yeah, think the issue might be "D6K"
It'd be kinda like taking a WWII light cruiser in a modern naval wargame, yeah
it's a cruiser but anything more modern is gonn wipe the floor with it.

Listen to Kruegy, he's fantastic at the theoretical stuuf about what ships are good, technical
skills may be a little weak but he's getting old.

Or you could just fly Lyran, grab a DWLP and never look back..

Father Ted · « **Reply #3 on:** April 25, 2006, 03:52:56 pm »

I'd say listen to Kreug. Evil Dave missions are exactly what he says they are, evil. There's no way around it, and flying a D6K is asking for trouble. If you think these missions are tough, you should have seen what the Feds and Hydrans were drawing in the original AOTK.

Bonk · « **Reply #4 on:** April 25, 2006, 04:36:33 pm »

Thanks for your comments alphageek, I was worried that this might happen. Since all the EEK and ED missions were pulled from the last run I set the campaign difficulty to Admirial; otherwise the missions were way too easy. With the new ED missions in for the second run, difficulty will be increased.

Since there were no comments on this subject during the two week test for the second run, I assumed it was OK. If you find its still too much after following the advice above, let me know and I'll look at reducing the campaign difficulty to Commodore. This should make the ED missions more manageable and the stock and TG missions a cakewalk.

If anyone else finds it is too much please let me know and I'll definitely reduce the difficulty if everyone finds it the same...

Father Ted · « **Reply #5 on:** April 25, 2006, 04:50:37 pm »

One complaint, Bonk, and it doesn't have to do with mission difficulty. We're flipping hexes with allies, but it seems that when we flip it, it's randomly chosen which race gets the hex. Sometimes it's the drafter, sometimes the draftee. I almost had an anyeurism yesterday when I drafted Deadman's Gorn cruiser by accident and a hex I was working as a Hydran flipped Bruce. That's one toke over the line...

Bonk · « **Reply #6 on:** April 25, 2006, 05:08:13 pm »

Quote from: Father Ted on April 25, 2006, 04:50:37 pm

One complaint, Bonk, and it doesn't have to do with mission difficulty. We're flipping hexes with allies, but it seems that when we flip it, it's randomly chosen which race gets the hex. Sometimes it's the drafter, sometimes the draftee. I almost had an anyeurism yesterday when I drafted Deadman's Gorn cruiser by accident and a hex I was working as a Hydran flipped Bruce. That's one toke over the line...

Hmmm... is it happening with just the NW missions or all of them? If happening with all missions I'll see if I can tweak the settings to affect this.

Riskyllama · « **Reply #7 on:** April 25, 2006, 05:12:45 pm »

actually theres a trick to it. bonk I'll tell you, but the allaince wil have to figure it out on their own.

KBFLordKrueg · « **Reply #8 on:** April 25, 2006, 05:38:18 pm »

Quote from: Riskyllama on April 25, 2006, 05:12:45 pm

actually theres a trick to it. bonk I'll tell you, but the allaince wil have to figure it out on their own.

Grrr...great...now everyone will want to know... $:-\$

Riskyllama · « **Reply #9 on:** April 25, 2006, 05:40:55 pm »

I think of it this way, now the Alliance knows its screwing up

and Bonk isn't chasing after ghosts.

NuclearWessels · « **Reply #10 on:** April 25, 2006, 05:48:56 pm »

Quote from: Bonk on April 25, 2006, 04:36:33 pm

Thanks for your comments alphageek, I was worried that this might happen. Since all the EEK and ED missions were pulled from the last run I set the campaign difficulty to Admirial; otherwise the missions were way too easy. With the new ED missions in for the second run, difficulty will be increased.

Since there were no comments on this subject during the two week test for the second run, I assumed it was OK. If you find its still too much after following the advice above, let me know and I'll look at reducing the campaign difficulty to Commodore. This should make the ED missions more manageable and the stock and TG missions a cakewalk.

If anyone else finds it is too much please let me know and I'll definitely reduce the difficulty if everyone finds it the same...

I can also post an update to the test pack - there is a glitch in the balancing code for the currently posted pack that can result in reinforcements for the wrong side (oops

). I've got updated versions that fix that, and also contain a tweak to give more consistent draw behaviour, particularly in early era (where there are bigger BPV range gaps in the shiplist).

I don't want to torture people with too many mission pack switches, but tweaks and adjustments are ongoing almost constantly, so whenever you'd like to go for an updated version just holler.

dave

EDIT: just in case, this URL has all the most recent missions except the minefield versions of Ambushee/Ambusher: http://www3.telus.net/NuclearWessels/sfc/downloads/NWpack.zip pack last updated 5pm PDT May 2

FPF-Tobin Dax · « **Reply #11 on:** April 25, 2006, 06:26:34 pm »

Most people I have talked to seem generally happy with the challenge.

Riskyllama · « **Reply #12 on:** April 25, 2006, 08:07:35 pm »

i'd just like to see a few less carriers, it seems to be the only thing i can pull in my CAY

FPF-Tobin Dax · « **Reply #13 on:** April 25, 2006, 08:25:42 pm »

fly more in nebulas

KBF-Crim · « **Reply #14 on:** April 25, 2006, 08:40:44 pm »

Get a fleet of drone chuckers....

FPF-Tobin Dax · « **Reply #15 on:** April 25, 2006, 09:48:57 pm »

Risky likes being a frog though...

Riskyllama · « **Reply #16 on:** April 25, 2006, 09:55:42 pm »

Quote from: FPF-Tobin Dax on April 25, 2006, 09:48:57 pm

Risky likes being a frog though...

They're just...better...you know.

FPF-Tobin Dax · « **Reply #17 on:** April 25, 2006, 10:42:06 pm »

yeah, with butter.

Riskyllama · « **Reply #18 on:** April 25, 2006, 11:04:58 pm »

you cannibal...what happened to your Federation's vaunted value for life?

note to self, bite me is off the list of things to say to tobin...

FPF-Tobin Dax · « **Reply #19 on:** April 25, 2006, 11:19:39 pm »

replicators will come in for the "next generation", until then, it's the real thing.

Riskyllama · « **Reply #20 on:** April 25, 2006, 11:42:21 pm »

Quote from: FPF-Tobin Dax on April 25, 2006, 11:19:39 pm

until then, it's the real thing.

This means wa-- pacification. All ships found in the above manner will be seized and their command crew will take a long walk out a short shuttlebay.

Bonk · « **Reply #21 on:** April 26, 2006, 01:39:25 am »

Quote from: Riskyllama on April 25, 2006, 05:40:55 pm

I think of it this way, now the Alliance knows its screwing up
and Bonk isn't chasing after ghosts.

Gonna post this publicly, sorry Risky and LordKrueg, but it needs discussion, has many implications:

Quote from: Riskyllama

DV shifts are decided by whoever comes out of mission first.
Lyran/KBF teams confirmed this on KCW.
If a hex is neutral, whoever comes out first gets the shift.
In pvp on a 0 hex, if both players live, this happens as well as far as I can tell,(this is what happened on the last run of the forge when I flew against chuut, so I think it holds true here as well.)

I wondered about this while working on PvP DV shifts, I'm going to take another look at that soon once some other stuff is taken care of.

By "comes out of mission first", I assume you mean first one to report the mission... I have always had "philosophical" difficulty with the debreifing screen that will stay up indefinitely without user input... can't really do much about that without the client source as well, but this information will be helpful in analysing the serverside code and possible modifications to it.

Bonk · « **Reply #22 on:** April 26, 2006, 01:47:00 am »

Quote from: NuclearWessels on April 25, 2006, 05:48:56 pm

I can also post an update to the test pack - there is a glitch in the balancing code for the currently posted pack that can result in reinforcements for the wrong side (oops ). I've got updated versions that fix that, and also contain a tweak to give more consistent draw behaviour, particularly in early era (where there are bigger BPV range gaps in the shiplist).

I don't want to torture people with too many mission pack switches, but tweaks and adjustments are ongoing almost constantly, so whenever you'd like to go for an updated version just holler.

dave

EDIT: just in case, this URL has all the most recent missions except the minefield versions of Ambushee/Ambusher: http://www3.telus.net/NuclearWessels/sfc/downloads/NWpack.zip last change April 25

Awesome Dave! I'll update the server and missionpack installer in the next few days after the network changes.

Use your judgement on update frequency, once a month is workable for me, maybe even biweekly, most of the players keep up to date on happenings on the forums so will find out about mission changes pretty quick.

Soreyes · « **Reply #23 on:** April 26, 2006, 02:26:33 am »

Sometimes you just have to laugh at some of the AI draws in ED missions. Yesterday I was in a MDC drafting Deadman who was in a CVA. As soon as the mission started I knew that we were going to get fried

We drew 2 R-RHKs, 1 R-KRCS, and 4 count them 4 Maulers

We did come out on top at the end. Got 250pp for the win. Spent 380 to resupply and repair

Father Ted · « **Reply #24 on:** April 26, 2006, 08:28:44 am »

Soreyes is right, the ED missions are WAAAAAYYYY too stingy for what we're going up against. I just got 255 points after capturing 1 Lyran ship, and blasting the other 5 as well as an Orion. Repair and resupply? 600 points...

Icehawk · « **Reply #25 on:** April 26, 2006, 08:57:58 am »

i think it also seems to matter what race i have been flying hydran and have not really had any difficulty in completing missions

NuclearWessels · « **Reply #26 on:** April 26, 2006, 09:00:42 am »

Good point Soreyes and Padre - actually the PP award is something I kept meaning to go back and correct, must have a mental blindspot there.

I'll update that today, and update the posted pack this afternoon so the increased rewards can be in for the next round.

thanks for the feedback folks!
dave

Father Ted · « **Reply #27 on:** April 26, 2006, 12:02:34 pm »

Thanks for caring, Dave!

NuclearWessels · « **Reply #28 on:** April 27, 2006, 10:57:34 am »

Hey, the other bonus is I finally finished a base placement/construction mission where you can draft 3v3!

I'm just bundling that up with the rest of the pack (Met_NWBasePlacement.scr or something like that).

dave

Bonk · « **Reply #29 on:** April 27, 2006, 11:05:28 am »

Quote from: NuclearWessels on April 27, 2006, 10:57:34 am

Hey, the other bonus is I finally finished a base placement/construction mission where you can draft 3v3!

I'm just bundling that up with the rest of the pack (Met_NWBasePlacement.scr or something like that).

dave

Now that is cool!

Would you advise running it alongside or in place of the stock base construction mission?
EDIT: ...now that I think about it, that's kind of a dumb question, running it in place of the stock mission makes sense...

Once the new network is sorted out and The Forge is back online (later today) I'll update the missions to the latest. I'd like to include that new base construction mission...

Soreyes · « **Reply #30 on:** April 27, 2006, 12:38:21 pm »

Thank You Dave

NuclearWessels · « **Reply #31 on:** April 27, 2006, 12:41:10 pm »

Righto, Met_NWBasePlacement.scr is now in the posted pack.

Let me know if the opposition level is OTT for that one - didn't do a whole lot of testing with the different base sizes, so some of them may be either way easy or way hard.

thanks Bonk!
dave

deadmansix · « **Reply #32 on:** April 27, 2006, 06:44:13 pm »

Dave your still EVIL!!! I dont care what nice things anybody says about you

thanks for the new missions though they do make ya think and that is good.

NuclearWessels · « **Reply #33 on:** April 27, 2006, 06:48:21 pm »

Quote from: deadman on April 27, 2006, 06:44:13 pm

Dave your still EVIL!!! I dont care what nice things anybody says about you

...

And it just comes so naturally

Actually there were some entertaining moments testing the BasePlacement script.

I forgot to disable the option that sets ship speeds at the start of a mission, so the starbases would be flying around at speed 12, following my ship like a big dangerous puppy. Hmmmm ... maybe it's time for a flying moon or something in one of these missions (see how many people have forgotten the hordes of flying asteroids ...

)

dave

Alphageek · « **Reply #34 on:** April 28, 2006, 11:28:05 am »

Sorry I didn't get this posted sooner but I was having trouble getting to the board. I finally wussed out and went with a D5L. I feel somehow as if I were cheating by taking a better ship to get easier AI draws.

By the by, do I need to download and install anything from the link Evil Dave put up on the previous page of this thread?

Bonk · « **Reply #35 on:** April 28, 2006, 11:42:24 am »

Quote from: F9thalphageek on April 28, 2006, 11:28:05 am

Sorry I didn't get this posted sooner but I was having trouble getting to the board. I finally wussed out and went with a D5L. I feel somehow as if I were cheating by taking a better ship to get easier AI draws.

By the by, do I need to download and install anything from the link Evil Dave put up on the previous page of this thread?

We've been rebuiling the network on the new connection, things should stabilse soon.

The directory server and The Forge are not back up yet, I'm working on those today.

They new missions will be in when the server comes back up, but I will update the forge scripts installer, and will post a link when done, so no need to download the zip posted above (unless you want to play with them in singleplayer).

I'll keep you posted, I hope to have The Forge back up later today...

Alphageek · « **Reply #36 on:** April 28, 2006, 11:48:39 am »

I can't wait. I need my daily Forge fix.

KBFLordKrueg · « **Reply #37 on:** April 28, 2006, 05:00:27 pm »

Um...does this mean another reset as well...?
Kinda hope not.... $:-\$

Bonk · « **Reply #38 on:** April 28, 2006, 05:39:29 pm »

Nope, no reset, just a transplant to another machine and some new missions, waiting for the infrastructure to be in place.

The only reset so far was on the conclusion of testing before starting the second run. So, effectively no resets at all.

Should be back in business soon...

KBFLordKrueg · « **Reply #39 on:** April 28, 2006, 05:45:26 pm »

Quote from: F9thalphageek on April 28, 2006, 11:28:05 am

Sorry I didn't get this posted sooner but I was having trouble getting to the board. I finally wussed out and went with a D5L. I feel somehow as if I were cheating by taking a better ship to get easier AI draws.

By the by, do I need to download and install anything from the link Evil Dave put up on the previous page of this thread?

LOL...it's not that you'll get easier AI draws...it's that you'll have a easier time dealing with the AI draws.

The D5L is actually a little bit higher BPV than the D6K, you might even draw slightly heavier AI.

Probably most will be in the same size range as what you drew before.
The D5L is a great CL, I'm sure you'll like it.

Bonk · « **Reply #40 on:** April 28, 2006, 10:33:42 pm »

The Forge server and webmap is back up. I didn't update the missions yet, I'll get to that tomorrow or Sunday, had too much stuff on the go today.

NuclearWessels · « **Reply #41 on:** April 29, 2006, 01:11:26 am »

Quote from: Bonk on April 28, 2006, 10:33:42 pm

The Forge server and webmap is back up. I didn't update the missions yet, I'll get to that tomorrow or Sunday, had too much stuff on the go today.

heh, in that case I snuck in one more update to the posted pack - 11pm PDT Friday

(increases the number of different maps supported in the most common missions)

dave

Bonk · « **Reply #42 on:** April 29, 2006, 08:13:41 am »

Quote from: NuclearWessels on April 29, 2006, 01:11:26 am

heh, in that case I snuck in one more update to the posted pack - 11pm PDT Friday

(increases the number of different maps supported in the most common missions)

dave

lol, I thought you might... more maps is good! I downloaded the pack at 9 AM AST today, I should have the new missions on the server shortly...

Riskyllama · « **Reply #43 on:** April 29, 2006, 10:20:36 pm »

oh and i think you missed one of the scripts dave. I just pulled 2 H-ID and an LGE+ in my all alone CCY. 56 fighters and 3 dreads isnt evil, its madness.
If it happens again i'll remember to get the script number.

Alphageek · « **Reply #44 on:** April 30, 2006, 04:33:27 pm »

I'm not sure I've got the right problem, but yesterday phantom terrain seemed to have been a real problem. My poor old wingman, Malak, ran into asteroids twice. Since I'm pretty sure he's not a drooling retard I'm assuming this was due to some of the terrain not being visible to him.

This happened on "Host Left" missions with Malak drafting.

Bonk · « **Reply #45 on:** April 30, 2006, 06:20:33 pm »

Were any of the players in the mission running software firewalls?

KBF MalaK · « **Reply #46 on:** May 01, 2006, 05:43:43 am »

I had a mean weekend with servers this weekend, I had out of date scripts and a spamblocker trying do d/l a corrupt file in the background (unknown to me). I seem to have the connecttion issue fixxed so no more dropping to desktop. I guess the rocks jumping in front of me as I dropped could account for that, but all seems to work now cept I get alot of double shifts on planetary assaults when I fly solo, but I'll take it.

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Topic: Forge AI Complaint. (Read 7836 times)