Topic: Kat Fight

[Hexx]

~ Bases
Kzin Starbases (not base stations/ battlestations) will be toned down a bit
likely replacing some of the Ph$'s with drone racks
Lyran Starbases (not base statosn/battlestations) will be upgraded a bit
(likely replacing a few Ph4's with better and non historic PD system)

Yes this could essnetially be considered a nerf of the Kzin bases with an upgrade of the Lyran
It's really the only way I can see to balance out attacking the big (high VP) Starbase hexes.

*cough* fix *cough*   

The Lyran navy is quite capable of taking down a Kzinti Starbase, trust me I can actually do it faster as a Lyran than as a Kzinti to tell you the truth. Unless of course carriers are not limited as you have suggested they will be.   BATS are easier as a Kzin however, Base Stations pop quickly no matter what.

I'd disagree- being raised on stories of single DF's deepstriking Starbases makes me think that drone users should be punished.
Punished severely. 

I'm curious as to what you see as equilivants between the two navies from a balance point of view. 

Be kinda interesting to compare ship stats on your "matchups"

I'm particularly interested to see what you propose as an equal matchup in this "massive" slot area vs say the L-CWLP.  Of course I know the CWLP will be limited as specialty ships as they are command variants, but just curious.

I've actually just started this- and yes, opinions are welcome.
Being more than willing to admit I've never seriously flown Kzi, I'm not entirely familair with thier ships.
That being said- in  my mind (from the few I've looked at)

Dn's is advanatage Kzin
'Special" DN's is advanatage Lyran (nothing matches STL)
CVA's are Kzin
Fighters are Kzin (until 2280ish, then it's about equal)
CVP/CVD is Kzin (not sure if they'll be used)
CF's look to be Lyran (although I'm not fond of the Lyran one, Kzin doesn't seem special either)
CA I'd say Kzin
CC I'd say Lyran
BC/BCH is Lyran (easily)
CW's- haven't looked yet, though I'd imagine Kzin (lyran CW isn't anything great)
CWL's haven't looked yet, I'm willing to believe it's lyran
DWL's- slight advantage Lyran
DD's- Kzin
FF's- Kzin
PF's Kzin



AS for the Carriers, not sure yet how they'll be restricted, I'm thinking of making them fly with
one of the smaller escorts available to them.
In any event any escort rule will punish the Lyrans far more than anyone else so..

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

I'd disagree- being raised on stories of single DF's deepstriking Starbases makes me think that drone users should be punished.
Punished severely. 

I was raised on stories of the Easter Bunny myself, these are more likely to be true than lone DF being able to take out a full Starbase.  Never done a BATS either with a solo DF except once when I had a fleet of ai helping me.

[Hexx]

I'd disagree- being raised on stories of single DF's deepstriking Starbases makes me think that drone users should be punished.
Punished severely. 

I was raised on stories of the Easter Bunny myself, these are more likely to be true than lone DF being able to take out a full Starbase.  Never done a BATS either with a solo DF except once when I had a fleet of ai helping me.

What are you saying about the Easter bunny?

Anyway the idea (atm, always subject to change of course) is to make a Starbase a challenge for
3 players (including a DN) to take out, a very tough challenge for 2 players to take out and impossible for 1 player to take out.
And that's without live opposition defending the base.
There won't be alot of SB's( 2atm, might increase to 4), but it should be an event if one falls.

[Skaren]

I sense to prejudice against the Kizin,..

punish them ?

Lone DF's doing miracles,..   


What next,..   how about speed 3 drones   

Oh and no reloads too     

[Maverick]

Heh, Hexx I don't envy you trying to strike a balance to races whose ships have nothing in common such as Mirak and Lyran I commend the attempt. Good luck with that really lol... Flown a bit of the both races I'm sure you're aware of the fact they will never be balanced or anything close. As for the Starbase thing it will be tricky to make them that hard for it to take 3 players to blow up. All the weapons in the world on the thing you still have to remember, it's flown by the AI slight disadvantage =)

Lyrans are capable of taking down a kzin starbase pretty easy. Mirak goes either way really... Lord knows they can do it if they land all those drones but it takes a lot of B racks to start landing those drones. I don't envy either race really when it comes to base busting. Of course I'll give you this 3 mirak players with lot's of drones will drop a base pretty easy. So I can see where you are going with the base thing. (Although 1 DF against a Starbase heh)

Well I'm certain of one thing this will definately prove to test Hexx's sanity soon. I don't envy you one bit.

Looks like it should be a lot of fun.

[762_XC]

Base busting is insanely easy with Mirak.

[Riskyllama]

Just to clear things up for skaren, you're defending Chuut..the guy who takes DFs through 2 empires just to harrass the guys on the other side. He usually leads people like Freedom who takes DFs through the enitre map without reloads just to find errant bases you thought were safe 15 hexes behind the lines...

I sense to prejudice against the Kizin,..

punish them ?

Lone DF's doing miracles,..   


What next,..   how about speed 3 drones   

Oh and no reloads too     

[Capt_Bearslayer_XC]

Base busting is insanely easy with Mirak.

Ditto with St-2's.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

If you have a wingman base busting is insanely easy no matter what race.

[Bonk]

Lyrans have PFs. Kzin have drones. (cheese argument officially over.)    Vive la difference!

Having had Chuut destroy my Mirak MDC+ in a Lyran PFT more than once... I forget which server....

[Hexx]

Lyrans have PFs. Kzin have drones. (cheese argument officially over.)    Vive la difference!

Having had Chuut destroy my Mirak MDC+ in a Lyran PFT more than once... I forget which server....

Think you meant..

Lyrans have PFs.Kzin have drones.Kzin have better PFs. Lyrans have better pilots.


Anyway as I see it for balance
Kzin have better hex flipping ability (despite the fact I'm sure Chuut will jump in with how Lyrans run 1:10 missions against AI, we admit nothing)
Lyran ships (imho) have slightly better PVP qualities
That being said
-The Kzin DN is superior to the Lyran DN (except the STL, which will obviously be restricted even for DN's)
-Pretty much any of the Kzin carriers are superior to their Lyran counterparts (but carriers will have some restrictions so..)
-The Lyran BCPP is unquestionably (I think) superior to anything the Kzin can field , the gap widens with the Hellcat upgrade
-The Lyran CWL is superior (again imho) to the MCC- but marginally, an extra point of power and 2 more ph1's
 it's not much of an advantage though, and if the Kzin can catch hte CWL it's gonna hurt
-The Lyran DWl is (again marginally) superior to the Kzin DWL, but this could be the other way- 4 racks on a tiny hull will hurt
- The Kzin DD/DF's are easily superior to anything the Lyrans can field
-Kzin Fighters are better until 80ish when parity is achieved
-Kzin PF's are better 


Really the only thing I see as being a big difference is the BCPP, and really it's arguably a better ship than any other race can field in teh era.
Treating them as capital ships (even though they're not..) should solve any issues with their use.

[762_XC]

If you have a wingman base busting is insanely easy no matter what race.

Then I should have said FAST and easy.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Lyrans have PFs. Kzin have drones. (cheese argument officially over.)    Vive la difference!

Having had Chuut destroy my Mirak MDC+ in a Lyran PFT more than once... I forget which server....

LOL, I remeber that, jumping crazily from one PF to the Next to avoid their destruction and attempting to get off shots at you during any reprieve I could manage. 

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Lyrans have PFs. Kzin have drones. (cheese argument officially over.)    Vive la difference!

Having had Chuut destroy my Mirak MDC+ in a Lyran PFT more than once... I forget which server....

Think you meant..

Lyrans have PFs.Kzin have drones.Kzin have better PFs. Lyrans have better pilots.

No he meant Lyrans have Pfs Kzin have drones which a competent Lyran can easily avoid, Lyrans have better pilots when Chuut is flying Lyran   

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Just to clear things up for skaren, you're defending Chuut..the guy who takes DFs through 2 empires just to harrass the guys on the other side. He usually leads people like Freedom who takes DFs through the enitre map without reloads just to find errant bases you thought were safe 15 hexes behind the lines...

Yes Chuut is someone who thinks strategically as well as tactically.  Strategic thinking is the great pleasure that the game holds for me, without it might as well play another game.  If some don't like the strategic aspect thats fine just don't complain about those of us who do or try to limit the strategic aspects, that tends to drive off players.

P.S.  I dont just do it in a DF, I've done it as a Gorn, as a Romulan, as a Lyran, as a Klingon, and as an ISC.  I've done it with droners, carriers, line ships, and even a freighter or two, so don't give me the Kzinti in a droner bit.

As a matter of fact on AOTK II it wasn't Freedom in a Kzinti Ship who was the sole culprit of the deep deep deepstrikes, Karnak flying his ISC plasma boat was among the leaders in that category as he did a complete circle through all the enemy empires without resupply.    

[Matsukasi]

Lyrans have better pilots.

You're welcome. 

[Soreyes]

Karnak flying his ISC plasma boat was among the leaders in that category as he did a complete circle through all the enemy empires without resupply.     

I remember Karnak on TS when he was doing this. His running commentary. Well there goes a Fed Base.... There goes a hydran Base.... There goes a Klingon base.   

[Kaz]

Why is everybody so scared of X-tech? Almost every server is none or limited x-tech and then it is only x phasers. Lets have some phaser A's and B's or at least some heavy weapons. This is a game dynamic I personally believe is overlooked too much.It doesn't have to be cheese if they are balanced out correctly.

[FPF-DieHard]

Why is everybody so scared of X-tech? Almost every server is none or limited x-tech and then it is only x phasers. Lets have some phaser A's and B's or at least some heavy weapons. This is a game dynamic I personally believe is overlooked too much.It doesn't have to be cheese if they are balanced out correctly.

The server ends before the X-tech comes out.

I would like the think my re-desing X-ships are close to balanced (Aotk2, SG05, etc . . .) but opinions vary.

[Skaren]

We just had a campaign battle with a Gorn fleet (DND, Psuedo carrier, HDD) fought a ISC (XCF and XCL).  The X fleet was soo fast that the Gorn could not even land a torp.  The entire Gorn Flag Fleet, with Admiral on board was destroyed with no loses to ISC.  That has caused the entire Gorn border to be in trouble as now there is a wonder if any non X gorn fleet can stop the advance of the ISC X fleet.

It made a number of folks re examine their view on X ships and many have called for a outright ban on them in the next campaign. 

I will be making a point to look over your modified X ships, as I sorta like em too, but I am facing some issues with them now also.