Topic: Kat Fight

[Hexx]

Background

With the collapse of the Kzinti economy due to the sheer amount of corruption and graft in the Empire( studies would later show that over 95% of the Economy was based on graft, with less than 5% based on trade,let alone manufacturing there simply wasn't anything to skim anymore) The population of the Kzinti Hegemony found themselves in an unprecedented epidemic of disease (being filthy beasts and all) and starvation.

 Local Warlords quickly gained power, doling out food and what few medical supplies they had in return for the support of the masses.
Of course with few resources to control, and a growing number of warlords, the self proclaimed "saviours" of the Hegemony quickly fell to squabbling amongst themselves.

 Seeing a disaster of unprecedented proportions, the Federation council , in a hastily called emergency meeting decided to make a number of sound bites and photo ops, as well they repealed several " anti-trade" laws that had legally kept Federation Weapons manufacturers from selling product to the Kzin warlords. Several Federation companies also secured contracts to rebuild the shattered Kzin infrastructure along the Federation border. In the few places this infrastructure wasn't in need of repair, Starfleet was forced to launch several preemptive strikes on renegade Kzin warriors, which unfortunately had the side effect of leveling whatever infrastructure had survived.

 The Klingon Empire reinforced it's Northern Border Fleet, but chose to do nothing as they were having their own cultural upheaval,
Switching from an ostensibly Russian based culture to a pseudo Samurai based one wasn't turning out to be as easy as they had initially thought.

 The Lyran Empire voted unanimously to send charitable aid to their stricken neighbors. Within hours of the noble decision, Lyran freighters carrying food and medical supplies crossed into Kzinti space. Establishing orbit around several of the major Kzin border worlds they began to ferry down the food, as well as trained medical personal to help establish clinics for the sick. The Kzin population quickly began to turn their backs on the despotic Warlords that had seized power. Here, truly, the Lyrans- long vilified as" Enemies of the People" by the former Kzin government were passing out food and medicine as quickly as they could be shipped from Lyran space.
Unfortunately as they say, no good deed goes unpunished.

 Worried about being shown up by the Lyrans, The Federation Council warned them to stay out of Kzin space; claiming only Starfleet (and of course the major Federation companies) had the moral right to operate in the former Hegemony. After failing to intimidate the selfless Lyrans the Federation ordered Starfleet to fire on any Lyran ship (preferably unarmed) they could find. After a particularly one sided skirmish, where a squad of Lyran DD's defeated a Starfleet CC squadron in the suxtobeu Nebula, the Federation decided to switch tactics.

 The Federation announced that it's intelligence agencies had discovered that the Lyran "Medical supplies" were in fact drugs and apparatus designed to spay and neuter the Kzini population under guise of "medical aide" . Though these accusations were of course baseless, and it should be mentioned the high number of Veterinarians amongst the Lyran volunteers was merely because so many medical personal had volunteered that a few were bound to slip through the cracks. Still a particularly vile Kzin warlord, with some degree of base cunning was more than happy to swear secret allegiance to his new Federation masters in return for warships and supplies.

 With the might of the Federation's economy behind him, churning out drones and poorly built ships faster than anyone could blow them up, the Warlord quickly reclaimed much of Kzin space. When the Kzin world's that the Lyrans were providing aide for voted unanimously in free elections to ask to be declared Protectorate's of the Lyran Empire the warlord flew into a rage. Ignoring the wishes of the Kzin he claimed to represent he ordered massive drone strikes on any planet his fleet could get close to. The  Lyran Navy moved in to protect the innocent and helpless peoples of those worlds.

The War was On.

From "Histories of the Early Lyran Peacekeeping Era: Prelude to the Lyran Defeat of the Andromedans"
Lyran Pan-Galactic Protectorate Library
published 2282

Server
Lyrans v Kzin
10 days -2 weeks
@ 2268-80ish (subject ti change of course)

Standard(ish) shiplist- No X tech
Vp's for map objectives & win/loss PVP ratio.
smallish map
more exciting details coming soon.

[likkerpig]

Finally some no-spin history!
Of course it didn't come from those spin doctor Feds!

[GDA-S'Cipio]

Background

 The Klingon Empire reinforced it's Northern Border Fleet, but chose to do nothing as they were having their own cultural upheaval,
Switching from an ostensibly Russian based culture to a pseudo Samurai based one wasn't turning out to be as easy as they had initially thought.

 

-S'Cipio

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

I'm sure those  relief supplies were much needed considering how devastating the conflict and the damage done to every imaginable institution of civilization in the Kzinti colony worlds must have been, especially on Lyra, which was propably the worst hit of the Kzinti colonies. 

[likkerpig]

I'm sure those  relief supplies were much needed considering how devastating the conflict and the damage done to every imaginable institution of civilization in the Kzinti colony worlds must have been, especially on Lyra, which was propably the worst hit of the Kzinti colonies. 

Ahhh, obviously suffering from vitamin deficiency leading to delusions.
No Lyran worlds have ever fallen to outside forces, contrary to reports put forward by disinformation ministers usually labelled "Bagdad Bob" or "Green".
The benevolent Lyran Star Empire has once again extended its paw in friendship and sympathy to our more primitive almost sentient fellows in the Kzinti Hegemony.  Of course this act of kindness was immediately attacked by the warmonger "Opium Lords" of the UFC, who saw the possibility of losing their grip of the oppressed Kzin peoples, as well as the loss of their 'nip market if the noble Lyran detoxification plan comes to fruitataion.

THROW OFF YOUR SHACKLES KZIN BROTHERS AND SISTERS,  JOIN US IN SMITING YOUR OPPRESSORS... LAP DOGS OF THE IMPERIALIST HUMAN EMPIRE!

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

No Lyran worlds have ever fallen to outside forces,.....

Technically you could be correct as the Lyrans chose to tactically regroup on the planet Vichy  before the Kzinti onslaught vs Lyra.  On Vichy the Lyran leader Hexx felt he had a better strategic position wedge in on three sides by the protective embrace of the Klingon Empire.

The benevolent Lyran Star Empire has once again extended its paw in friendship and sympathy to our more primitive almost sentient fellows in the Kzinti Hegemony.

Or was it more of a "Sicilian" hand gesture?

Of course this act of kindness was immediately attacked by the warmonger "Opium Lords" of the UFC, who saw the possibility of losing their grip of the oppressed Kzin peoples, as well as the loss of their 'nip market if the noble Lyran detoxification plan comes to fruitataion.

Umm Likkerpig espousing detox?  ok what have you done with the real Likkerpig?

 


Go ahead and rally around that famous "battle flag"<Snicker>  of yours..... 





....and rally behind that Bastion of the Star Empire <Snicker> Hexx the Brave, Mightiest of the Lyrans <Double Snicker>.....





It might even prevent enough distraction for you students to stop striking 

[FPF-DieHard]

This looks fun. 

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Proof of the "Lyran French Connection"

http://agent2508.blogspot.com/2005_02_01_agent2508_archive.html

here are a few snippets from the entries

Thursday, June 09, 2005
How Appropriate
My apartment is in the rue Caffarelli - which is an in-joke, if you're a Lyran. Caffarelli was a soldier of the ancien regime who became a general under Napoleon, and was killed in Egypt in 1799 ... except he was a Lyran, responsible for some of workstream 7.33, which eventually led to the revolution. One of the few Lyrans ever to die in battle. How about that.

Yup not a typical Lyran as they run from battle not die in it, likely killed by being trampled in a mass retreat. 

Learning French a Bit Quicker
"We want you to blend in" said 086 yesterday. "You see, somebody has to take charge of liaison, and you're the best French speaker we have."
So it's a week of total immersion, and, when I say total I mean total.
A lot of earthling research into learning has been funded by Lyrans - we want to get back some of the techniques we use at home. Some of the stuff that isn't available yet, or is hidden away in government laboratories, is made by companies we own.
For the rest of this week, I'll be strapped in a chair with goggles over my eyes, in a state of mild hypnosis absorbing the most modern French programs we can find. It had better be worth it.

Is it a wonder that the Lyrans have been teaching the French?  And since the French have already mastered the Lyran technique of surrender, I guess we should look for French ships crashing into rocks in the near future as the information sharing continues 

A Quiet Weekend
Decided to spend most of the weekend dead. Decision influenced by how I felt on Saturday morning after drinking most of the night before. But there was nothing much on TV - I've lost interest in the Grand Prix this year, it's all so predictable. Actually, the Schumacher thing was a bit of a mistake, if you ask me, and Raikonnen isn't exactly doing us any favours either. Bit of re-programming needed there, I think - good thing it's not my workstream.
Being dead is one of the first skills Lyrans learn - otherwise, we would never be able to go on those long interstellar journeys - but you need to have a safe environment (ironic if you died in a house fire, after all), and you need to revive a good twelve hours before work the next morning. So we usually do it in pairs - I had sat for 1972 a few weeks ago. When he arrived, I climbed into the casket, composed myself, and ....bliss. Woke up a few minutes ago feeling a lot better. Dying does that for you.

"Being dead is one of the first skills Lyrans learn", and one they never seem to forget 

Beginning to think this is Hexx's blog 

[Hexx]

History
The Kzin Pacification actually started as a rather small scale peacekeeping action. Despite the fact that it arguably was the first step in the eventual creation of the Lyran Pan-Galactic Protectorate, no one at the time had predicted it would be anything more than a few small scale engagements until the "New" Kzin command structure succumbed to to the same racial traits of greed and sloth that had doomed the Hegemony.

 Neither Fleet at the start was particularly powerful, the Warlords fleet was an amalgamation of Hegemony era ships,and Federation built copies of Hegemony design. Suffice to say of course while the ships looked the same, vastly different levels of incompatible electronics systems had to be worked on and integrated into what the Warlord hoped oneday would become an efficient fighting machine. Although history would show that this never happened, and that the Kzin had to rely on the mass number of ships being produced in Federation factories to make up for the complete lack of strategic or tactical vision demonstrated by his command structure.
 
Of course the Lyran Navy at the time, while demonstrating time and time again that they were the best led, best trained, best equipped fleet in the Quadrant, they also didn't have the huge numbers of ships their opponents relied on. While many ships had been converted to carry relief supplies to the masses of starving Kzin, many more were still needed in deployment on the Hydran front.
 (The reader must note that these events took place just prior to the Great Betrayal and subsequent Hydran extinction, the local powers had not yet realized that the Hydran Empire had already offered their servitude to the Andromedans)
 
 Still with their limited number of ships, the Lyran navy was able to remain on the offensive throughout most of the Pacification through a combination of brilliant leadership, and innovative developments in planning as well as command and control dynamics. It is of course interesting to note that the aforementioned developments by the Lyran navy would oft try to be duplicated by teh rest of the Local powers
Fedration,Klingon, Romulan,Gorn and Concordat Naval theorists all began to try and develop variations of the base Lyran Naval doctrines.
It is perhaps ironic that so much time,effort, and money were thrown into trying to develop counters to the Lyran Navy's envied dominance when the Lyrans had no desire to do anything but help out their less fortunate neighbors. Of course this woul come back to haunt all the powers when the dark days of the Andromedan Invasion descended...
 
From " Following Destiny : Prelude to the Klingon Intervention  "
Lyran Pan-Galactic Protectorate Library
published 2291

Server Concepts

The server will (hopefully) test out a few new ideas (yes I know-quit whining)
While it be of course be mainly a stand up fight between the noble Lyran navy , and the evil machinations of the Kzin warlord
and his Federation Masters, it will have a few new twists, as well as incorporating many of the more interesting features from past servers

- There will be a cap ship limit. This applies to everything from BCH's and up
- There will be "special" limitations as to the deployment of DN's and CVA's
- Specialty ships (what few there are) will be treatd a bit differently.
  Accounts will be craetd in advance for X number of them, once that particular ship is destroyed, it's gone.
- There is a massive (well kinda big)slot area. This area includes many different types of terrain (not that many Nebs though...)\
  with low (5)
  DV scores and a large number of low VP hexes, it should change hands alot.
- There are also a number of high DV large VP hexes, with appropriate starbases and defensive networks.
  the idea is to make these only crackable by a big-ship fleet.
- finally each side will have a number of "secret" objective hexes to mark, these represent supply depots, command posts, listening 
  stations, etc
- Each side will also have a number of points to spend, these points can be used to (all subject to change of course)
   - build new capital ships (?)
   - add a ship to hte max number of capital ships you can have on the board
     ** current plan is to start the server with 0 or 1 Capital ship permitted per side, to get more spend the points)
   - be used to "ambush" an enemy capital ship
     ** current plan is to use this to set up a GSA "Hunt the Bismarck" style match
   - be used to learn the location of a number of enemy secret VP's

[likkerpig]

Whoo-eee Jethro!
You been hitting that nip a little too hard there chuttster!
I don't think detox will be enough for you, perhaps some brain manipulation will help with those delusions.
Oh, the medical specialists recommend castration in your case as well, if we get rid of that cronic masterbation thing you have going you can concentrate on your recovery more.

See how benevolent we are? Even after all those lies and delusions you are spreading about us, we still have your best interests at heart!

[Riskyllama]

As part of my Interstellar Concordium training, we studied the tactics of many of the races we would have to endeavour to help peacekeep. One such race was the Federation. For a society that claimed to put so much emphasis on the ideas of peace, justice, tolerance, and the betterment of creatures throughout the galaxy...One can not help but notice the amazing number of blunders that the Federation and it's supporting Starfleet warmongers  have caused.  One prime example is the Federation invasion of Cestus III and the subsequent attack on Gorn troops and ships. Again the "United Federation" attacked both First Federation navigation bouys and vessels without a full understanding of the situation. Even when aware of the flag of truce, Federation security agents attempted to attack the unarmed Klingon emmisary on Capella IV. One wonders how the Federation keeps from being in open warfare with all it it's neighbors.

It is no suprise then, that the Federation has become hostile and has attempted to attack Lyran Peace-Keeping Units, My only regret is that ISC fleet elements are not yet to full strength. Intervening in such a conflict could only help to gain such a noble ally as the Lyrans when we attempt to restore such a truobled galaxy to peace in the days to come.

[Julin Eurthyr]

One wonders how the Federation keeps from being in open warfare with all it it's neighbors.

Because of that "Federation Council" outfit they have, the ones who are loathe to declare war, write treaties every chance they get, and stuff it down the throats of their "noble" officers.  If not for that unarmed council, we'd see another empire fall to the truism of "absolute power corrupting absolutely".  Because, if the Entire Federation were truly pacifists, the officers of Starfleet would be knocking down the door looking for a chance to help us in our pacifications.

[Skaren]

Well said Julian !!

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

As part of my Interstellar Concordium training, we studied the tactics of many of the races we would have to endeavour to help peacekeep. One such race was the Federation. For a society that claimed to put so much emphasis on the ideas of peace, justice, tolerance, and the betterment of creatures throughout the galaxy...One can not help but notice the amazing number of blunders that the Federation and it's supporting Starfleet warmongers  have caused.  One prime example is the Federation invasion of Cestus III and the subsequent attack on Gorn troops and ships. Again the "United Federation" attacked both First Federation navigation bouys and vessels without a full understanding of the situation. Even when aware of the flag of truce, Federation security agents attempted to attack the unarmed Klingon emmisary on Capella IV. One wonders how the Federation keeps from being in open warfare with all it it's neighbors.

It is no suprise then, that the Federation has become hostile and has attempted to attack Lyran Peace-Keeping Units, My only regret is that ISC fleet elements are not yet to full strength. Intervening in such a conflict could only help to gain such a noble ally as the Lyrans when we attempt to restore such a truobled galaxy to peace in the days to come.

You've done Lyran before Risky, why not give Kzin ago, might be fun to try it for a change.

It would be fun to wing with you again, been too long my friend. 

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Actually, weren't we supposed to have a Lyran Civil war first Hexx?  Been looking forward to that one.  You could rest assured there wouldn't be any starcastling for that one 

[Hexx]

And for those that want to get in early with the thrashing ..
With the qualifier that this is all subject to change

~ Bases
Kzin Starbases (not base stations/ battlestations) will be toned down a bit
likely replacing some of the Ph$'s with drone racks
Lyran Starbases (not base statosn/battlestations) will be upgraded a bit
(likely replacing a few Ph4's with better and non historic PD system)

Yes this could essnetially be considered a nerf of the Kzin bases with an upgrade of the Lyran
It's really the only way I can see to balance out attacking the big (high VP) Starbase hexes.

~ PVP VP's
I'd like to try a PVP VP ratio system- points will be awarded for having the most kills in different
ship class categories
ie
            
FF
DD/DW
CL/CW
CA/CC
BCH
DN/CVA

Having a 3/2 kill ratio would net your side one point, 2-1 3 points. 3-1 5points 4-1 10 points (which would likely be the max)
Each category would be determined seperately, so if the Lyrans killed mor DD's, and the Kzin kiled more CW's it would balance ot.
Also possible it could put a greatr point ratio on the win/loss of the heavier ships (BCH and up)

As alluded to before- there would also be "resource points" for either side.
These would be used for a variety of things, the ones which I'm currently working on balancing being
1) Building big ships- You'll have to spend points to buy/ replace the big shps
2) CnC You'll be able to spend points to increase your side's ship limits.
(atm both sides start being able to have 1 capital ship on the board at a time, spending X number of points would allow
 a side to field a second, there would of course be a maximum (likely 3) that could be on at a time)
3) Ambush- for less than it costs to field a new big ship, you'll be able to spend RP to intercept enemy communications and set up
   an ambush of an enemy capital ship. This would essentially be a "Hunt the Bismarck" scenario played out on GSA


Again all concepts are works in progress, whle I think all of them can be made to work I wnat to do it without
overcomplicating things as I've been known to do.
Any thoughts/comments or of course the unconditional surrender of the Kzin Warlords to face War Crimes trials would be appreciated.

[Hexx]

Actually, weren't we supposed to have a Lyran Civil war first Hexx?  Been looking forward to that one.  You could rest assured there wouldn't be any starcastling for that one 

LCW is on hold while I desperately try and throw together a series of servers featuring the Lyrans to try and get some PVP practice in.

But yes, LCW is still beiing planned, as is a Kzin Civil War.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

I'm curious as to what you see as equilivants between the two navies from a balance point of view. 

Be kinda interesting to compare ship stats on your "matchups"

I'm particularly interested to see what you propose as an equal matchup in this "massive" slot area vs say the L-CWLP.  Of course I know the CWLP will be limited as specialty ships as they are command variants, but just curious.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

~ Bases
Kzin Starbases (not base stations/ battlestations) will be toned down a bit
likely replacing some of the Ph$'s with drone racks
Lyran Starbases (not base statosn/battlestations) will be upgraded a bit
(likely replacing a few Ph4's with better and non historic PD system)

Yes this could essnetially be considered a nerf of the Kzin bases with an upgrade of the Lyran
It's really the only way I can see to balance out attacking the big (high VP) Starbase hexes.

*cough* fix *cough*   

The Lyran navy is quite capable of taking down a Kzinti Starbase, trust me I can actually do it faster as a Lyran than as a Kzinti to tell you the truth. Unless of course carriers are not limited as you have suggested they will be.   BATS are easier as a Kzin however, Base Stations pop quickly no matter what.

[deadmansix]

 And don't forget that the Hydrans are just looking for a reason to get rid of the toothless furballs called Lyarns, and attacking our good friends the Kizin would give us that reason.

[Hexx]

~ Bases
Kzin Starbases (not base stations/ battlestations) will be toned down a bit
likely replacing some of the Ph$'s with drone racks
Lyran Starbases (not base statosn/battlestations) will be upgraded a bit
(likely replacing a few Ph4's with better and non historic PD system)

Yes this could essnetially be considered a nerf of the Kzin bases with an upgrade of the Lyran
It's really the only way I can see to balance out attacking the big (high VP) Starbase hexes.

*cough* fix *cough*   

The Lyran navy is quite capable of taking down a Kzinti Starbase, trust me I can actually do it faster as a Lyran than as a Kzinti to tell you the truth. Unless of course carriers are not limited as you have suggested they will be.   BATS are easier as a Kzin however, Base Stations pop quickly no matter what.

I'd disagree- being raised on stories of single DF's deepstriking Starbases makes me think that drone users should be punished.
Punished severely. 

I'm curious as to what you see as equilivants between the two navies from a balance point of view. 

Be kinda interesting to compare ship stats on your "matchups"

I'm particularly interested to see what you propose as an equal matchup in this "massive" slot area vs say the L-CWLP.  Of course I know the CWLP will be limited as specialty ships as they are command variants, but just curious.

I've actually just started this- and yes, opinions are welcome.
Being more than willing to admit I've never seriously flown Kzi, I'm not entirely familair with thier ships.
That being said- in  my mind (from the few I've looked at)

Dn's is advanatage Kzin
'Special" DN's is advanatage Lyran (nothing matches STL)
CVA's are Kzin
Fighters are Kzin (until 2280ish, then it's about equal)
CVP/CVD is Kzin (not sure if they'll be used)
CF's look to be Lyran (although I'm not fond of the Lyran one, Kzin doesn't seem special either)
CA I'd say Kzin
CC I'd say Lyran
BC/BCH is Lyran (easily)
CW's- haven't looked yet, though I'd imagine Kzin (lyran CW isn't anything great)
CWL's haven't looked yet, I'm willing to believe it's lyran
DWL's- slight advantage Lyran
DD's- Kzin
FF's- Kzin
PF's Kzin



AS for the Carriers, not sure yet how they'll be restricted, I'm thinking of making them fly with
one of the smaller escorts available to them.
In any event any escort rule will punish the Lyrans far more than anyone else so..

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

I'd disagree- being raised on stories of single DF's deepstriking Starbases makes me think that drone users should be punished.
Punished severely. 

I was raised on stories of the Easter Bunny myself, these are more likely to be true than lone DF being able to take out a full Starbase.  Never done a BATS either with a solo DF except once when I had a fleet of ai helping me.

[Hexx]

I'd disagree- being raised on stories of single DF's deepstriking Starbases makes me think that drone users should be punished.
Punished severely. 

I was raised on stories of the Easter Bunny myself, these are more likely to be true than lone DF being able to take out a full Starbase.  Never done a BATS either with a solo DF except once when I had a fleet of ai helping me.

What are you saying about the Easter bunny?

Anyway the idea (atm, always subject to change of course) is to make a Starbase a challenge for
3 players (including a DN) to take out, a very tough challenge for 2 players to take out and impossible for 1 player to take out.
And that's without live opposition defending the base.
There won't be alot of SB's( 2atm, might increase to 4), but it should be an event if one falls.

[Skaren]

I sense to prejudice against the Kizin,..

punish them ?

Lone DF's doing miracles,..   


What next,..   how about speed 3 drones   

Oh and no reloads too     

[Maverick]

Heh, Hexx I don't envy you trying to strike a balance to races whose ships have nothing in common such as Mirak and Lyran I commend the attempt. Good luck with that really lol... Flown a bit of the both races I'm sure you're aware of the fact they will never be balanced or anything close. As for the Starbase thing it will be tricky to make them that hard for it to take 3 players to blow up. All the weapons in the world on the thing you still have to remember, it's flown by the AI slight disadvantage =)

Lyrans are capable of taking down a kzin starbase pretty easy. Mirak goes either way really... Lord knows they can do it if they land all those drones but it takes a lot of B racks to start landing those drones. I don't envy either race really when it comes to base busting. Of course I'll give you this 3 mirak players with lot's of drones will drop a base pretty easy. So I can see where you are going with the base thing. (Although 1 DF against a Starbase heh)

Well I'm certain of one thing this will definately prove to test Hexx's sanity soon. I don't envy you one bit.

Looks like it should be a lot of fun.

[762_XC]

Base busting is insanely easy with Mirak.

[Riskyllama]

Just to clear things up for skaren, you're defending Chuut..the guy who takes DFs through 2 empires just to harrass the guys on the other side. He usually leads people like Freedom who takes DFs through the enitre map without reloads just to find errant bases you thought were safe 15 hexes behind the lines...

I sense to prejudice against the Kizin,..

punish them ?

Lone DF's doing miracles,..   


What next,..   how about speed 3 drones   

Oh and no reloads too     

[Capt_Bearslayer_XC]

Base busting is insanely easy with Mirak.

Ditto with St-2's.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

If you have a wingman base busting is insanely easy no matter what race.

[Bonk]

Lyrans have PFs. Kzin have drones. (cheese argument officially over.)    Vive la difference!

Having had Chuut destroy my Mirak MDC+ in a Lyran PFT more than once... I forget which server....

[Hexx]

Lyrans have PFs. Kzin have drones. (cheese argument officially over.)    Vive la difference!

Having had Chuut destroy my Mirak MDC+ in a Lyran PFT more than once... I forget which server....

Think you meant..

Lyrans have PFs.Kzin have drones.Kzin have better PFs. Lyrans have better pilots.


Anyway as I see it for balance
Kzin have better hex flipping ability (despite the fact I'm sure Chuut will jump in with how Lyrans run 1:10 missions against AI, we admit nothing)
Lyran ships (imho) have slightly better PVP qualities
That being said
-The Kzin DN is superior to the Lyran DN (except the STL, which will obviously be restricted even for DN's)
-Pretty much any of the Kzin carriers are superior to their Lyran counterparts (but carriers will have some restrictions so..)
-The Lyran BCPP is unquestionably (I think) superior to anything the Kzin can field , the gap widens with the Hellcat upgrade
-The Lyran CWL is superior (again imho) to the MCC- but marginally, an extra point of power and 2 more ph1's
 it's not much of an advantage though, and if the Kzin can catch hte CWL it's gonna hurt
-The Lyran DWl is (again marginally) superior to the Kzin DWL, but this could be the other way- 4 racks on a tiny hull will hurt
- The Kzin DD/DF's are easily superior to anything the Lyrans can field
-Kzin Fighters are better until 80ish when parity is achieved
-Kzin PF's are better 


Really the only thing I see as being a big difference is the BCPP, and really it's arguably a better ship than any other race can field in teh era.
Treating them as capital ships (even though they're not..) should solve any issues with their use.

[762_XC]

If you have a wingman base busting is insanely easy no matter what race.

Then I should have said FAST and easy.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Lyrans have PFs. Kzin have drones. (cheese argument officially over.)    Vive la difference!

Having had Chuut destroy my Mirak MDC+ in a Lyran PFT more than once... I forget which server....

LOL, I remeber that, jumping crazily from one PF to the Next to avoid their destruction and attempting to get off shots at you during any reprieve I could manage. 

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Lyrans have PFs. Kzin have drones. (cheese argument officially over.)    Vive la difference!

Having had Chuut destroy my Mirak MDC+ in a Lyran PFT more than once... I forget which server....

Think you meant..

Lyrans have PFs.Kzin have drones.Kzin have better PFs. Lyrans have better pilots.

No he meant Lyrans have Pfs Kzin have drones which a competent Lyran can easily avoid, Lyrans have better pilots when Chuut is flying Lyran   

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Just to clear things up for skaren, you're defending Chuut..the guy who takes DFs through 2 empires just to harrass the guys on the other side. He usually leads people like Freedom who takes DFs through the enitre map without reloads just to find errant bases you thought were safe 15 hexes behind the lines...

Yes Chuut is someone who thinks strategically as well as tactically.  Strategic thinking is the great pleasure that the game holds for me, without it might as well play another game.  If some don't like the strategic aspect thats fine just don't complain about those of us who do or try to limit the strategic aspects, that tends to drive off players.

P.S.  I dont just do it in a DF, I've done it as a Gorn, as a Romulan, as a Lyran, as a Klingon, and as an ISC.  I've done it with droners, carriers, line ships, and even a freighter or two, so don't give me the Kzinti in a droner bit.

As a matter of fact on AOTK II it wasn't Freedom in a Kzinti Ship who was the sole culprit of the deep deep deepstrikes, Karnak flying his ISC plasma boat was among the leaders in that category as he did a complete circle through all the enemy empires without resupply.    

[Matsukasi]

Lyrans have better pilots.

You're welcome. 

[Soreyes]

Karnak flying his ISC plasma boat was among the leaders in that category as he did a complete circle through all the enemy empires without resupply.     

I remember Karnak on TS when he was doing this. His running commentary. Well there goes a Fed Base.... There goes a hydran Base.... There goes a Klingon base.   

[Kaz]

Why is everybody so scared of X-tech? Almost every server is none or limited x-tech and then it is only x phasers. Lets have some phaser A's and B's or at least some heavy weapons. This is a game dynamic I personally believe is overlooked too much.It doesn't have to be cheese if they are balanced out correctly.

[FPF-DieHard]

Why is everybody so scared of X-tech? Almost every server is none or limited x-tech and then it is only x phasers. Lets have some phaser A's and B's or at least some heavy weapons. This is a game dynamic I personally believe is overlooked too much.It doesn't have to be cheese if they are balanced out correctly.

The server ends before the X-tech comes out.

I would like the think my re-desing X-ships are close to balanced (Aotk2, SG05, etc . . .) but opinions vary.

[Skaren]

We just had a campaign battle with a Gorn fleet (DND, Psuedo carrier, HDD) fought a ISC (XCF and XCL).  The X fleet was soo fast that the Gorn could not even land a torp.  The entire Gorn Flag Fleet, with Admiral on board was destroyed with no loses to ISC.  That has caused the entire Gorn border to be in trouble as now there is a wonder if any non X gorn fleet can stop the advance of the ISC X fleet.

It made a number of folks re examine their view on X ships and many have called for a outright ban on them in the next campaign. 

I will be making a point to look over your modified X ships, as I sorta like em too, but I am facing some issues with them now also.

[Hexx]

Why is everybody so scared of X-tech? Almost every server is none or limited x-tech and then it is only x phasers. Lets have some phaser A's and B's or at least some heavy weapons. This is a game dynamic I personally believe is overlooked too much.It doesn't have to be cheese if they are balanced out correctly.

Short of completely redesigning the X2 ships and weapons there's no real way to balance them against anything non X2 tech.
While I have (another) set of (very) tentative plans to have an X2 weapon or two show up in a later server, the X2 ships themselves will never show in nay campaign I'd run.
What's the point of having a ship that runs at spd 31, 6 points of ECM and can carry (at least) half it's heavy weapons on OL's?

We just had a campaign battle with a Gorn fleet (DND, Psuedo carrier, HDD) fought a ISC (XCF and XCL).  The X fleet was soo fast that the Gorn could not even land a torp.  The entire Gorn Flag Fleet, with Admiral on board was destroyed with no loses to ISC.  That has caused the entire Gorn border to be in trouble as now there is a wonder if any non X gorn fleet can stop the advance of the ISC X fleet.

It made a number of folks re examine their view on X ships and many have called for a outright ban on them in the next campaign. 

I will be making a point to look over your modified X ships, as I sorta like em too, but I am facing some issues with them now also

Again the ships described (XCF/XCL) are the 2nd generation Xships, with basically enough power to do absolutely anything they need to while flying SPD31
They're ridiculous. IF you incorporate some of DH's X ships they're not as bad- His are about equal to the BCH's of the races, some a little better, some a little worse.

[Kaz]

Is there a way to put out a ship that has "some" hvy weapons in exchange for normal ones that wouldn't require it to have such a high pwr level? Thus avoiding a ship that can run spd 31 with OL weapons, etc.

The campain "Return of Dr. Strangelove" for me, was a good example of blending the techs. Minus the Shadows of course.   

[Skaren]

I just played in that last night, the Vorlon sh*t was really cool, pretty fun to play with.  I don't mean for Dyna or anything, but still fun.

The super Vorlon Battleship was unreal !!

[Hexx]

Is there a way to put out a ship that has "some" hvy weapons in exchange for normal ones that wouldn't require it to have such a high pwr level? Thus avoiding a ship that can run spd 31 with OL weapons, etc.

The campain "Return of Dr. Strangelove" for me, was a good example of blending the techs. Minus the Shadows of course.   

Of course - the issue is how you balance it.
I have (somewhere) a few designs based on using ships with the "prototype" weapons
Based on a CCH hull, with a point or two of AWR added, stripped of it's own heavy weapons
as well as some of it's pahser armament. Replacing them with a few PhB's/PhA'a /whatever.
They alos lose numerous hull and cargo boxes to represent the extra space and fragile nature of the new systems.
The problem is in
- making the ship fun to fly
- keeping the new tech balanced across 8 races
- making sure that while you achieve the first two, it's not by creating ships that are better than
  every other ship in the game

[Mutilator]

Lyrans have PFs. Kzin have drones. (cheese argument officially over.)    Vive la difference!

Having had Chuut destroy my Mirak MDC+ in a Lyran PFT more than once... I forget which server....

Think you meant..

Lyrans have PFs.Kzin have drones.Kzin have better PFs. Lyrans have better pilots.

No he meant Lyrans have Pfs Kzin have drones which a competent Lyran can easily avoid, Lyrans have better pilots when Chuut is flying Lyran   

Wonder if you missed a word there Chuut?

Sure you do not mean "Lyran have better pilots even when Chuut is flying Lyran!" 

At any rate I am sure FSD will be interested in any server that has Lyran as a playable race...especially if that means we get to  kill your smelly Kzint butt. 

[Kaz]

Ah, I see. Sounds like it is quite the undertaking and time consuming.

[Hexx]

Last of the Warlords

It is perhaps unfortunate that his original name has been lost in time. In fact almost nothing is know about his previous life.
It is believed he didn't originally start out as a military officer, his tactics and strategies showed no signs of any formal instruction, even the
rather dated and sterile strategies favoured by the old Hegemony Nobles showed more of an understanding for basic military thinking than anything the Warlord was ever seen to accomplish. It is believed that he may have been a manic depressive type personality, old records still exist that show him unpredictably fluctuating between pointing out the Kzin Navy's excellence and deriding it's lack of ability within the same sentence.

 It is commonly held that he was a low level flunky of some greater patron before the collapse, believed to be either proprietor of some sort of
backwater bar, or perhaps a legal consultant at said property. It must be pointed out that while, as with most rumours this must be only considered until proof is found, it is interesting to note that the base viciousness and savagery of his attacks increased after the accidental destruction of the Star's End station. It is also again important to note that despite the claims of the conpiracy theorists, there is no evidence the Lyran Navy targeted the station intentionally. Every indication is that it was actually an internal explosion, not unknown during the conflict, especially on those ships known to be using Federation supplied drones. 

 In any event the question remains with us to this day. Who was the Kzin warlord that rose from seeming obscurity to plunge such a large area of territory into chaos? It would likely to prove to be a fascinating study of Kzin psychology & physiology to find out, and be able to see what forces shaped him. Although lacking anything beyond a rudimentary understanding of military tactics and strategy, time and time again he exhibited almost prescient ability to avoid any sort of decisive battle. It is  deeply unfortunate, (although completely understandable) that the final rebellion against the Warlord by the Kzin peoples he had enslaved destroyed so many records...

From " Can I Play With Madness .. a new look at the Kzin Warlords during the Kzin Pacification"
Dante Press
pub 2287

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Lyrans have PFs. Kzin have drones. (cheese argument officially over.)    Vive la difference!

Having had Chuut destroy my Mirak MDC+ in a Lyran PFT more than once... I forget which server....

Think you meant..

Lyrans have PFs.Kzin have drones.Kzin have better PFs. Lyrans have better pilots.

No he meant Lyrans have Pfs Kzin have drones which a competent Lyran can easily avoid, Lyrans have better pilots when Chuut is flying Lyran   

Wonder if you missed a word there Chuut?

Sure you do not mean "Lyran have better pilots even when Chuut is flying Lyran!" 

At any rate I am sure FSD will be interested in any server that has Lyran as a playable race...especially if that means we get to  kill your smelly Kzint butt. 

Hmmm lets see, holder of record for career prestige as a Lyran......that would be Chuut 

And most PvP kills as a Lyran  prior to a server where PvP kills weren't encouraged by VC rewards.....that would be Chuut 

Most PvP kills during a server of any type as a Lyran....thatwould likelyl be Chuut as well   

Best ratio of PvP kills to being killed as a Lyran, .....not sure here but likely not Chuut, Chuut is probably about 3rd or 4th  after Mog, Firesoul, and Matsukazi, but I may fall behind a few others as well.  Now if it wasn't for Die Hard Chuut might rank higher. (Not to mention a very bad mission vs Scipio)

I'd say I do a pretty fair job as a Lyran pilot.

As for my smelly butt, I guess you have gotten a good whiff as I hung it out a porthole and mooned you in passing.      

By the way Mutt, just for the record you are an awesome Lyran pilot as well, and much better at fleet flying with Lyrans than I am, your right up there with Dizzy in that regard <S>.  But don't think Chuut doesn't bring the Lyran average up a bit when he flies Lyran.

Also my Victory Record as a Lyran RM is 100%   

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Last of the Warlords

It is perhaps unfortunate that his original name has been lost in time. In fact almost nothing is know about his previous life.
It is believed he didn't originally start out as a military officer, his tactics and strategies showed no signs of any formal instruction, even the
rather dated and sterile strategies favoured by the old Hegemony Nobles showed more of an understanding for basic military thinking than anything the Warlord was ever seen to accomplish. It is believed that he may have been a manic depressive type personality, old records still exist that show him unpredictably fluctuating between pointing out the Kzin Navy's excellence and deriding it's lack of ability within the same sentence.

 It is commonly held that he was a low level flunky of some greater patron before the collapse, believed to be either proprietor of some sort of
backwater bar, or perhaps a legal consultant at said property. It must be pointed out that while, as with most rumours this must be only considered until proof is found, it is interesting to note that the base viciousness and savagery of his attacks increased after the accidental destruction of the Star's End station. It is also again important to note that despite the claims of the conpiracy theorists, there is no evidence the Lyran Navy targeted the station intentionally. Every indication is that it was actually an internal explosion, not unknown during the conflict, especially on those ships known to be using Federation supplied drones. 

 In any event the question remains with us to this day. Who was the Kzin warlord that rose from seeming obscurity to plunge such a large area of territory into chaos? It would likely to prove to be a fascinating study of Kzin psychology & physiology to find out, and be able to see what forces shaped him. Although lacking anything beyond a rudimentary understanding of military tactics and strategy, time and time again he exhibited almost prescient ability to avoid any sort of decisive battle. It is  deeply unfortunate, (although completely understandable) that the final rebellion against the Warlord by the Kzin peoples he had enslaved destroyed so many records...

From " Can I Play With Madness .. a new look at the Kzin Warlords during the Kzin Pacification"
Dante Press
pub 2287

.......I wonder at the  scarcity of records concerning "the Warlord" is considered a great loss by historians, how rising from such obsurity he was able to transform much of the Hegemony into a virtual war machine and then suddenly abandon it to create a rare moment of Kzinti and Lyran mutual cooperation and fight with the Lyran navy and how he in which he rose to command all Lyran forces after the disappearance of King Sten and lead them to their greatest and first victory.  Yet most of those he lead and who praise his name in song were to be his next victims as he once again returned to the Hegemony and led a war of eradication that resulted in the deaths over over half of the Lyran populance.  Thus was his name stricken from the Lyran records.   But this was before I knew him........   

I met him when we turned once again to his leadership when his unigue abilites led us once again, this time commanding the unified Feline forces to victory in the Second Feline Crusade.   We stalked among the stars and fell all prey who opposed us.  I still remember the taste of the blood in my jaws and the shrieks of the fallen as they passed on to the Great Hunt, their prey moments ahead of them as the enemy fallen ran from our fallen warriors pursuit through the afterlife.  Would that I had died then during those days of glory and heroism, but it was my curse to survive.....Myself and the others who remained among the Lyran officers serving under "the Great Warlord"  found it once again advantageous to forget his name once the conflict was resolved, perferring to toddy to local politicans who fed our pockets with credits supplied with graft and other forms of corruption, all the while dreaming of the glory days of the Great Crusade when they stalked the Alpha Quadrant as hunters and Warriors alongside the Warlord and ate the freash flesh of their enemies rather than being fed dead processed meat supplies by our Lyran patrons..

From  "The secret diaries of the Far Stars Warriors and other personal accounts"
2288
University of Lyraa press

[Mutilator]

Hmmm lets see, holder of record for career prestige as a Lyran......that would be Chuut 

And most PvP kills as a Lyran  prior to a server where PvP kills weren't encouraged by VC rewards.....that would be Chuut 

Most PvP kills during a server of any type as a Lyran....thatwould likelyl be Chuut as well   

Best ratio of PvP kills to being killed as a Lyran, .....not sure here but likely not Chuut, Chuut is probably about 3rd or 4th  after Mog, Firesoul, and Matsukazi, but I may fall behind a few others as well.  Now if it wasn't for Die Hard Chuut might rank higher. (Not to mention a very bad mission vs Scipio)

I'd say I do a pretty fair job as a Lyran pilot.

As for my smelly butt, I guess you have gotten a good whiff as I hung it out a porthole and mooned you in passing.      

By the way Mutt, just for the record you are an awesome Lyran pilot as well, and much better at fleet flying with Lyrans than I am, your right up there with Dizzy in that regard <S>.  But don't think Chuut doesn't bring the Lyran average up a bit when he flies Lyran.

Also my Victory Record as a Lyran RM is 100%   

OMG Chuut you sound like a Maple leafs fan that has not seen time move past 1967! 

Past records are great and I am sure your old "model T" CA was great in it's day but the sun has set on those old records.  Perhaps like an old vet your hindsite of past evens plays out in your mind like it was yesterday. 

Perhaps like the Leaf fans knowing you did win something once upon a time may bring you confort like that old pair of shoes you slap on when your putting out the garbage... or perhaps these forums have been a little to quite for my liking  since KCW and I am getting board of logging on and finding not much that peaks my interest like when we have an old rock'em sock'em server going. 

That couple with the fact I only have another six weeks or so before I head back off to sea for four months, and there does not appear to be anything in the works that will be running before then.  I figure as you were poking a little fun with the Lyrans and the French, deux chose je connaître à fond familier.  I would poke some back at one of the most skill and honourable guys I have met since coming to dyna. You know I would be honoured to fly Lyran, or any race for that matter anytime with you... but it is just soooooo much fun flying against you. 

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

 

Ahh you did indeed catch my purpose, to drum up a littel fun activity for these quiet boards.   

Nothing like a goodnature jibe or three at your buddies.

It always a pleasure to fly with or against you Mutt, we had a blast on AOTK II, largely thanks to you and the FSD who put in alot of time, played great team strategy, contributed to the good humor, and just plain kicked butt in PvP.  It was the closest thing to the old KAT/KOTH days of glory that I had experienced in a long time.  Back then you'd see 5-8 and (as many as 15 at times) Kzin on most of the night and voice coms would be like a frat party more than a war zone.  Even between servers we'd all spend hours at a time on MSN messenger just chatting about silly stuff and passing jibes and funny pics back and forth (most directed at Maverick and Fluf of course)

I'm very glad you see my little jokes for what they are, I'd hate it if anyone actually got offended.

I also enjoy flying with you guys a great deal, and flying against you as well, hope I get the chance to do both many times in the future.

BTW this is my first really good shot at the Lyrans, in the past I've passed them over a bit in favor of the Klingon Villiage People, The Hydran Teletubbies, The crossdressing Gorn (Yes I was the origional creator of the tutu fad), etc.  The fact that the Lyrans have now been targeted is a tribute to you guys.  In the past there weren't enough Lyrans to poke fun at in comparison with the other races, you guys have changed that, and now its the Kzinti that have pretty much died out as a race with a few of us hanging on.

P.S.  If you want to put my semi-serious bragging to rest, the best way to do it is to rack some some nice records of your own flying Kzinti.  Breaking any records I set as a Lyran is to be expected (well except for the 982,000+ prestige one  , yes I did that as a Lyran!  ), but if you start making your way into the Kzinti records as a Lyran pilot, then you can start talking some real "smack" to me 

I've seen quite a few Kzin pilots do well in Lyran ships, unfortunately I can't say the reverse, that speaks volumes    (Mog is the exception that proves the rule)

[Hexx]

  (Mog is the exception that proves the rule)

I think it just shows that Mog was born to fly Kzin

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

  (Mog is the exception that proves the rule)

I think it just shows that Mog was born to fly Kzin

Agree totally, flyinf a Mirak ship he'd definately kick your Lyran tushy 

[Hexx]

  (Mog is the exception that proves the rule)

I think it just shows that Mog was born to fly Kzin

Agree totally, flyinf a Mirak ship he'd definately kick your Lyran tushy 

<assuming Mog isn't going to read this at any point>

I've NEVER been killed by anyone named Mog flying a Kzin ship of any type.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

  (Mog is the exception that proves the rule)

I think it just shows that Mog was born to fly Kzin

Agree totally, flyinf a Mirak ship he'd definately kick your Lyran tushy 

<assuming Mog isn't going to read this at any point>

I've NEVER been killed by anyone named Mog flying a Kzin ship of any type.

Don't be so sure, Mog doesn't fly Kzin under the "Mog" callsign 

[Mog]

Chuut, he's well aware of that, because he is technically correct that "Mog" hasn't killed him with a Kzinti ship.

[Icehawk]

i think some people misunderstand x tech nobody would fly a constition class ship in picards time i would be trashed by a well equiped tng frigate

[Hexx]

Bumping just so I don't have to go hunting for this later.

[_Rondo_GE The OutLaw]

It depends on the speed/type of the drones and the use of MIRVs I would think.  The later the era the more poer/advantage the Miraks start getting.