Topic: SFC: F&E Rule debate #2

[Skaren]

I would like to make a suggestion about damage and repair.  I have not heard anyone talk about it.

I think that it is one of the most important aspects of campaign logistics.

In our campaigns I see that players will often, if they think they cannot win, they may target the flag ship in the hopes of giving it 30% damage.  In doing so the fleet may have to turn back and head for repair or risk fighting damaged in the future.  It becomes a strategy to turn back a overwhelming fleet that you cannot actually defeat.

This creates situations where protecting the flag can be important.  Suddenly the little frigates that get in your way while heading to the flag ship become critical.

The battle dynamic changes for the better.

My worry is that game spy battles do not track damage?  Is that right?  Is the plan currently damage doesn't carry?  I don't know the answers to this and maybe it is not possible, but it sure would be nice if it could be in the game.

In our campaign battles I host the game, folks dial into my machine to resolve their battles and using Magnums sector assault damage is tracked.  Is there anyone who has any ideals on how we might be able to track damage in this game ?

[Capt_Bearslayer_XC]

There is a program called Sector Assault that will nix this problem as it logs & reports the damage to all ships/bases involved in the mission.

Problem is that SA is also bugged.  If you capture something, it crashes. (I know this one from personal experience) Other things cause crashes as well. Also, bases do not properly load out (sometimes drones are proper speed for the era, sometimes not, repair parts, Marines, and mines are always base level).  Def Plats (of which up to 8 or 12 can be added to the scenario) are, IMO, way too far out from the base. Other pluses are that FRD's and a planet can also be added (planet is lightly, heavily, or un-armed)

I have spoke with MagnumMan about this and he is willing to give his notes to a programmer to help him/her update the script.  Unfortunately, the last time I asked, no one stepped forward to take a look at it and MagnumMan is either unable or unwilling to work on the script....

[762_XC]

Waiting for Sector Assault means we will never launch. We need to plan around it.

I was thinking about this yesterday, here is a preliminary idea I came up with.

At the end of each battle, each surviving pilot records his/her total power. If their power level is 2/3 or less of the undamaged power level, that ship is crippled (meaning the counter is flipped after the battle). Any other damage is ignored.

Originally I thought it should be half, and then I realized ppl will be burning screws like mad at the end of the battle to get their power back over the magic line. 2/3 probably is more realistic in terms of overall damage.

[Skaren]

I am not sure that will work.

Either there needs to be no AI ship ever in the game

Or we need to teach the AI to record its power level 

I think that maybe damage recording cannot be done.

Personally,...  we us Sector Assault in my current campaign, because we play multiplayer battles there is already no capture, we do not use Def Sats or Planetary Def, or FRD's.  If you use only the basic BS, BATS, and SB it works.  If you start playing with upping fighter loads outs, drone types, etc it does go screwy.  You can up the drone speed with no issues.  We have been running with it for well over a 6 month window, turn 13 of the campaign, many battles, many Base assaults.  No complaints or dropped games so far.

But again in our case I think tracking damage is not going to work to well for us.

[762_XC]

I am not sure that will work.

Either there needs to be no AI ship ever in the game

Or we need to teach the AI to record its power level 

I vote option A.  

[Riskyllama]

Aye, so far, if we go with the intial F&E set up we are talking hundreds, if not over a thousand, ships to keep track of and move PER TURN.

Since I don't expect the commanders to throw away ships in battle, I think the numbers will rise from there....

So reducing the amount of ships that can be made will be done just to save my sanity.

On that note, I am also thinking of drasticly reducing or outright eliminating the 'reserve' fleets.

what about only worrying about reserve fleets unless a major planet or base is directly threatened? all the rest of the time they might sit around playing Battlefield Romulus and drinking cutty sark or whatever?

[KBF-Crim]

I am not sure that will work.

Either there needs to be no AI ship ever in the game

Or we need to teach the AI to record its power level 

I vote option A.   

Ugh...

get ready for some very long waits to get enough players from each side on at the same time to get all the battles done...

and get ready for some very long nights trying to get all the battles done becuase of the above....

Get rteady for people to drop off the face of the earth because of the above...

Get ready for a shortage of racial pilots to get all the battles done becuase of the above...

and get ready for the bickering to start over battle results because ships werent flown by racial specialists, because of the above...

or that no one want to fights certain battles when it becomes clear it will be an uneven route...

Having played through a couple of these (at least to the point where everyone quits in disgust)....I swear there there will be a time just a few empire moves into the game...when almost a hundred battles will need to be resolved (when you factor in breaking down a battle to eliminate AI)...and some of these battles might last an hour even...

Breaking down a fleet for a starbase battle wont simulate the fire power of the massed fleet...or allow multiple massed human defenders....etc..

Then....some one needs to document all this stuff in some type of readable manner....and either post a ton of info..or work on the  PBEM map for an hour...or both...

And...IIRC..there is no way to enter a GSA battle with partial damage to specific systems to keep previous battle damage effects meaningful...

NTDN came up with a script to do just that, and produce a log....but it was for SFC1 IIRC....the DV2 really negated a need for Shadow to finnish SFCC....

Everyone needs to be aware....

This type of campaign doesnt mesh well with DV style of play....

There will be a lot of waiting around....

waiting for empire moves.....waiting for reaction movement....waiting to pick a night to battle.....waiting around for someone to fight....waiting for other battles to get done....waiting for results to be posted.......

And that's just one turn...

What we really need is a way to automate all of this stuff.....a way to click one hex in a DV/Cyberboard style map, enter the battle with the appropriate ships ...and a way to launch that mission,get the map to recognize what portion of the battle is being played.....lock out those ship tiles on the map....and await the battle results and update the map...

And do this all on some kind of server.....

We toy'd with the idea of just running a DV campiagn with free movement,players with all the cash they need(PP has no meaning in this game)....and run an account for each battle group....3 accounts would be 3 players with 9 ships....

When a battle is to be played....players log in and use the ship designations as a sign in....the admin can then edit the accounts if need be...

This lets the server track and apply battle damage....supplys a chat interface....allows for game launch....but doesnt display ship tiles

In my case I would beep a cyberboard stuff on my laptop and use that for my reference map....

All the players would really need to do in log in ...hook up and play the battles....and only be allowed to repair a ship if it has been done on cyberboard...

The best way though would be to come up with a new type of server , a  marraige of Cyberboard and an SQL server me thinks...

[762_XC]

What we really need is a way to automate all of this stuff.....

Well we don't have one, yet. We're working with what we have, Mr. Party p00per.

Hell, if we only play one turn and get some fun battles out of it, then at least we had some fun battles.

[KBF-Crim]

What we really need is a way to automate all of this stuff.....

Well we don't have one, yet. We're working with what we have, Mr. Party p00per.

Hell, if we only play one turn and get some fun battles out of it, then at least we had some fun battles.

It's my potty and I'll poop if I want to...

I'm not saying we cant do it....or that I woulnt get into it....

I'm just saying....everyone needs to be aware of the amount of stuff required to pull it off...

[762_XC]

Don't think we don't know. 

[Skaren]

I agree with Crim,

To me the ideal situation is what we use in our current campaign, which has a long time track record of success, duration and fun.

Small, keep it small and keep the stacks small.  Will any player have more fun if he runs 16 ships or 150?  It is not the number of ships or stack size that makes a game.  It is the successfull run of the game.  In my game ships have names, some are/have earned famous status.  Smaller fleets add to the game personality and flavor.  We see ships over and over again and each one means something to each player.  If fed has 9 stacks of 9 ships (and how do you protect fed with 9 stacks? you can't),.. well you loss some flavor with 100+ ships.

You cannot count on assembled teams to resolve battles.  It is nice when it happens but counting on it to run the game is dangerous.  You have to use AI when needed.  It gives the team a reason to assemble too otherwise "My god AI is fighting for/in my slot tonight!"  The above thought may be invalid as I am too knew to this group, and have not seen other campaigns you guys talk of.

Keep it small and doable, that is a key to success.

For me our campaigns have always started with the ideal being small in the background.doc.  The current one is exploration/conquer a recently devastated small Galaxy with exploration fleets.  Unfortunately when you set up F and E style,... you right away have to imagine big stacks and large numbers of them.  If you don't it eats at your logic.  You can't have like 3 ships stacks in a F&E style game, just cause the full Fed is pictured with as having massive fleets,. huge numbers of ships,.. plus it is a huge map, and you have to fill it.

I totally agree that even one fun turn with battles, the campaign is still "worth it",..  Why can I say that,.. cause as a players way of thinking I haven't sunk 48 hours into working with rules, listening to player advice, setting up fleets, etc.  A ref on the other hand thinks that would suck to put the time in and have it run 1 turn.   I say that in all honesty and not meant to hurt anyone, just as a player you think differently than a ref.

Keep it small, keep it simple, keep it doable.

[Skaren]

Also hand pick dedicated players,.. people that have time and interest.  You guys know who they are.   The game will be much better with 10 to 12 dedicated players vrs 18-24,.. half of which may be slackards.

Now I know,.. that is a controvertial statement, and I am not trying to rile anyone,....  or rant 

It is just a honest suggestion,..  for success.

[762_XC]

People will sign up and either play or not play. I estimate 50% of those who actually sign up will put time into the thing. If it's more, bonus, and if anyone puts a lot of time into it, bonus again.

[Dfly]

All I can say is i agree it must be kept as small as possible for it to more successful.  I know as for Lyrans, or any other race for me if needed, I will be dedicated, and I can guarantee a couple wings for matches from the FSD fleet for Lyrans.  I do know there are a few others out here for most races who would be dedicated as well.
But ya, keep it small and simple for the first run with the Dyna guys, and this way we can get a good taste of it and know if we want more and bigger.

[KHH_Jakle]

Waiting for Sector Assault means we will never launch. We need to plan around it.

What about Fleetpick.  Fleetpick is backed into the Ops Enhancements package,and has the same functionality I believe.

[Skaren]

Fleet pick records damage to ships after combat ,..  That topic was about damage tracking.

Never heard of fleet pick but if this is true that would be great.  Would someone confirm that for me

Thanks

[762_XC]

I tried fleetpick once and couldn't get it to work.