Topic: Political tensions.  (Read 6765 times)

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Offline Lepton

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Re: Political tensions.
« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2006, 06:52:31 pm »
How about a simple matrix table? And maybe color codes with legend for quick scanning?

RaceUFPKEHKLSEMSLRSEGCISC
UFP-.05.93.05.93.05.95.05
KEetc-etcetcetcetcetcetc
HKetcetc-etcetcetcetcetc
LSEetcetcetc-etcetcetcetc
MSLetcetcetcetc-etcetcetc
RSEetcetcetcetcetc-etcetc
GCetcetcetcetcetcetc-etc
ISCetcetcetcetcetcetcetc-


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Offline FPF-DieHard

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Re: Political tensions.
« Reply #21 on: February 23, 2006, 07:19:58 pm »
Let me understand this, dynamic alliances are not possible?
Who'd thunk that Star-castling was the root of all evil . . .


Offline Riskyllama

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Re: Political tensions.
« Reply #22 on: February 23, 2006, 10:59:48 pm »
Let me understand this, dynamic alliances are not possible?


... Also we should be able to change alliances mid-campaign if we desire now. (applies to the flatfile as well)...


I think this spreaks for itself.
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Offline Bonk

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Re: Political tensions.
« Reply #23 on: February 24, 2006, 03:43:05 am »
Let me understand this, dynamic alliances are not possible?

There is an incomplete mechainsm for dynamic alliances already in the kit.

There are gf settings to increment the political tensions every so many turns based on the number of battles fought, but no mechanism to decrease the political tensions.

The meanings of the current relative political tensions are calculated based on the AllyRatio and Neutral ratio gf setttings. (I would post the details, but there is an NDA covering the code I have). Change these values and the current relative tension values have new meanings. (thus my hesitance to use just the current relative tensions fraction for display of relations).

The standard initial tensions used to produce consistent mission matching (inital tensions of 0 and 1000) do not allow for the kit to increase tensions and the tensions decrementing code in the kit is incomplete.

The logic used to provide for dynamic alliances in the kit is flawed and incomplete.

So in short, no.

edit: however by setting intermediate initial tensions and zeroing out the tension increment settings and some trial and error using the AllyRatio and NeutralRatio gf settings one may be able to dynamically adjust tensions globally, but not for just one pair of races...
« Last Edit: February 24, 2006, 06:52:50 am by Bonk »

Offline Bonk

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Re: Political tensions.
« Reply #24 on: February 24, 2006, 04:04:42 am »
How about a simple matrix table? And maybe color codes with legend for quick scanning?

RaceUFPKEHKLSEMSLRSEGCISC
UFP-.05.93.05.93.05.95.05
KEetc-etcetcetcetcetcetc
HKetcetc-etcetcetcetcetc
LSEetcetcetc-etcetcetcetc
MSLetcetcetcetc-etcetcetc
RSEetcetcetcetcetc-etcetc
GCetcetcetcetcetcetc-etc
ISCetcetcetcetcetcetcetc-

(excellent use of SMF's tables... ;))

Yes, that is the kind of thing I was thinking of. Perhaps I could put a summary like that at the top of the page.

However such a display is complicated by the fact that the initial tensions can be different; i.e. in the metamap.gf the feds can be at initial tension of 1000 to the klingons, but the klingons can be set to an initial tension of 500 to the Feds...

One would expect that the current relative tension values then would only be stored once, however, each race has a complete table of its relative tensions to the other races. I have not established whether these values are indeed consistent with the 2d matrix style you suggest. I have only decoded the values and the means of calculating the meanings of the current relative tensions. To establish if such a 2d matrix display of the relative tensions is accurate I will have to dig further in the code to see how the matrix is initially produced and then modified by the incomplete tension increment/decrement code, as well as continued observations of the kit in action.

Logically, such a table should be accurate, but I have learned not to make any assumptions about valid logic and the OP serverkit. ;)

The approach I have in mind now is an absolute one, eliminate the unpredicatable and incomplete tensions code in the kit by editing all the relative tensions to exact desired values.

Offline Bonk

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Re: Political tensions.
« Reply #25 on: February 24, 2006, 07:01:11 am »
Digging into the flatfile political tension matrix now... it is somewhat different. The initial tensions are stored the same as in the SQL db but the current relative tensions are not. I notice that NW's editor source tries to read the current relative tensions as percentages stored as hex characters, but this does not look right and he has commented his code to indicate that somehow the tensions table is being corrupted, indicating he may not have it quite right. I have not actually tested his editor for changing current tensions but it would be kind of moot as the application consistently fails handling the db after the campaign has run for a while. Perhaps Scipio/HerrBurt's editor already does handle current tensions properly? (I have not played with it yet)

As I get deeper into the flatfile structure I get the feeling I may end up revealing the problem with the serverkit's SQL code by comparing the structure of the two database types in detail. Particularly the tensions matrices as the serverkit tensions code is overly complicated, incomplete and prone to misinterpretation.

Offline Bonk

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Re: Political tensions.
« Reply #26 on: February 24, 2006, 10:31:49 am »
Sure enough. Dave's code was accurate. Flatfile politics page comin up.

I just find it strange that the current relative tensions would be stored so differently in the two matrices.

SQL: 32 bit single holding values from 0.00-1.00
Flatfile: 8 bit char holding values from 0-100

Weird...  :huh:

I think I'll do a table style page for each as well as Lepton suggests so there's a choice of view and I can compare the two. Though I'm tempted to move right on to a player roster from the flatfile character table next now that I have the political tensions matrix figured....

Offline GDA-Agave

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Re: Political tensions.
« Reply #27 on: February 24, 2006, 10:52:44 am »
Well, now I know why the call traffic has picked up at all the Gorn embassy's throughout the quadrant.   Everybody just seems to
want the Gorn Conferdation to overhaul some of our old treaties.   It's almost like they don't trust us or something.

I always knew the Gorn were popular, but WOW!!   :o



Way to go Bonk!! 

I can only imagine the damage Chuut can do to the map now through all his smoke-filled, back-room discussions.

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Offline GDA-S'Cipio

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Re: Political tensions.
« Reply #28 on: February 24, 2006, 01:34:41 pm »
Perhaps Scipio/HerrBurt's editor already does handle current tensions properly? (I have not played with it yet)

That was part of the update I'm working on now, but the utility does not currently allow you to adjust tensions.

Changing political tensions in EAW was very easy the one time I did it near the beginning of The Four Powers War server.  As I recall, it was just an 8x8 hexadecimal table that you converted into percentages.   Thus I expected OP to simply be a 16x16 table that did the same thing, but reading your posts  (grat job, by the way!   :thumbsup: )it sounds like things are a bit more complicated than that in OP.

In answer to your earlier question, if you are willing to share after you figure it all out, I'd love to include your solution in my editor.

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Offline Bonk

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Re: Political tensions.
« Reply #29 on: February 24, 2006, 02:59:25 pm »
In answer to your earlier question, if you are willing to share after you figure it all out, I'd love to include your solution in my editor.


Certainly will do.

By the way, I tried to run your editor today but got this error (do I need the VC 8 runtime or a newer version of the .net framework or something? - I have VC6 and VC8 installed, and the .net frameworks 1.1 and 2.0... or is it a VB dependency?):

edit: I just had a look at the exe in a hex editor and in a PE explorer and it looks like a VB5 app? I have VB6 installed...I thought I had the VB5 runtime installed... hmmm...

P.S. have you had a look at NW's EDDBEDIT source?: http://www.dynaverse.net/downloads/sfc2_op/Tools_and_Utilities/dbeditor_sourcecode.zip
(it is quite helpful, though there are some holes in it - I have identified some of the unknown stuff in it...)

Offline GDA-S'Cipio

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Re: Political tensions.
« Reply #30 on: February 24, 2006, 03:55:17 pm »

By the way, I tried to run your editor today but got this error (do I need the VC 8 runtime or a newer version of the .net framework or something? - I have VC6 and VC8 installed, and the .net frameworks 1.1 and 2.0... or is it a VB dependency?):

edit: I just had a look at the exe in a hex editor and in a PE explorer and it looks like a VB5 app? I have VB6 installed...I thought I had the VB5 runtime installed... hmmm...

Crap!

I actually wrote this tool using Borland Visual C++ Version 5.    I thought I had the executable built so that it would run independantly, but I guess not.  I'll have to rebuild it for you.

Quote
P.S. have you had a look at NW's EDDBEDIT source?: (it is quite helpful, though there are some holes in it - I have identified some of the unknown stuff in it...)

Yes, indeed!  Dave does great work.   

-S'Cipio
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Offline Bonk

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Re: Political tensions.
« Reply #31 on: February 24, 2006, 04:02:58 pm »
I actually wrote this tool using Borland Visual C++ Version 5.    I thought I had the executable built so that it would run independantly, but I guess not.  I'll have to rebuild it for you.

Coolness.  8)

Offline Lepton

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Re: Political tensions.
« Reply #32 on: February 24, 2006, 04:38:31 pm »
I am wondering why or if the relative tensions move away from the initial tensions and in what manner.  If a server was intended to have the same political state throughout its life as we do now in the dynaverse de facto, then why is there some sort of feature that would alter those initial tensions?  The designers might have intended for actions on the server to affect those tensions such that allies might become enemies or at least evolve to a state of neutrality, but from what Bonk has said, it sounds as if this was either poorly implemented or never finished.


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Offline Bonk

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Re: Political tensions.
« Reply #33 on: February 24, 2006, 04:47:42 pm »
This excerpt from the MetaMap.gf should pretty much explain it:

Quote

[PoliticalTensionInc]
// This is the numbered added every time a battle is fought
// Some races like the Federation are slower to anger
Federation=5
Klingon=20
Romulan=10
Lyran=15
Hydran=10
Gorn=15
ISC=25
Mirak=20
Orion=20
OrionOrion=20
OrionKorgath=20
OrionPrime=20
OrionTigerHeart=20
OrionBeastRaiders=20
OrionSyndicate=20
OrionWyldeFire=20
OrionCamboro=20

//This is the number subtracted when political tension is asked to be decreased.
//The federation is more likley to forgive than other races
[PoliticalTensionDec]
Federation=0            // (75) Currently under test
Klingon=0               // (15) Currently under test
Romulan=0               // (30) Currently under test
Lyran=0                  // (30) Currently under test
Hydran=0               // (45) Currently under test
Gorn=0                  // (30) Currently under test
ISC=0                  // (10) Currently under test
Mirak=0                  // (21) Currently under test
Orion=0
OrionOrion=0
OrionKorgath=0
OrionPrime=0
OrionTigerHeart=0
OrionBeastRaiders=0
OrionSyndicate=0
OrionWyldeFire=0
OrionCamboro=0


Offline RazalYllib

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Re: Political tensions.
« Reply #34 on: February 24, 2006, 06:13:01 pm »
Bonk, you have awesome Kung Fu !!!!

I was alway of the impression that the political tensions never worked properly from DV day 1.

Would it be possible to script missions to to "adjust" the tensions on the fly as it were through the use of sql?



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Offline Bonk

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Re: Political tensions.
« Reply #35 on: February 24, 2006, 06:47:22 pm »
Once we have stabilised the server kit on SQL enough to make it worthwhile, yes.

Offline Bonk

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Re: Political tensions.
« Reply #36 on: February 25, 2006, 04:04:04 pm »
How about a simple matrix table? And maybe color codes with legend for quick scanning?

RaceUFPKEHKLSEMSLRSEGCISC
UFP-.05.93.05.93.05.95.05
KEetc-etcetcetcetcetcetc
HKetcetc-etcetcetcetcetc
LSEetcetcetc-etcetcetcetc
MSLetcetcetcetc-etcetcetc
RSEetcetcetcetcetc-etcetc
GCetcetcetcetcetcetc-etc
ISCetcetcetcetcetcetcetc-


Check the politics page on the KCW webmap. ;)

No color codes yet and I've yet to do the same for the SQL webmaps, but I think it works well...

Offline Dfly

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Re: Political tensions.
« Reply #37 on: February 25, 2006, 05:52:18 pm »
I Love it.  Great Job.

Offline Lepton

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Re: Political tensions.
« Reply #38 on: February 25, 2006, 06:17:52 pm »
Cool!


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Offline FPF-Paladin

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Re: Political tensions.
« Reply #39 on: February 26, 2006, 06:29:31 am »
*drools openly!!*

Holy crap, awesome!!!

This could really fit in with something I want to try - please keep us updated Bonk!

Not having to restart a server to adjust those settings could save me a whack of time...

Muhaha.

Muhahahaha....



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