Topic: As my old 1SG used to say...

[Bonk]

Regarding embedding stuff in a file to prevent copying. That can always be defeated if someone really wanted to...

Have you tried to strip my demo of marks yet? Don't assume... Its been two days now since Malak said he could strip them... nobody has found and stripped all the marks since I have posted the challenge. In that time you could more easily make your own model rather than steal a marked one.

[Red_Green]

All models are marked in a way already. The meshes are unique and so are the textures. Modelers can recognize if their work has been used and not credited. As a couple people mentioned, the best policy is if you really have a model you don't want to take any risks on, its best not to release it. If models were marked as you desrcibed. How would the modelers be able to use the system since it can't be shared with anyone because  then everyone knows what to look for. How do you know that the person asking to know what to look for so that they can check to see if someone stole credit on their model, isn't a person that wants to defeat the system so they can eliminate the markings. It would be hard to implement and its so much easier just to not release something you need to protect

This also has no bearing on anyone that does not want to release a model because by doing so they lose the rights to the design. If these markings are in the textures, the textures could be altered or they could use the mesh and add new textures. Has there really been that big a drop off in the models that are being released because of model theft?

[Bonk]

A valid comment. However, I know who the main SFC community modelers are and that is who I would reveal the system to.

The trick is that we are allowed to mod SFC to our heart's content as long as we do not sell the mods. So equating investment of time with remuneration is invalid. (Not that you have suggested this but it is implied in some of these posts.) If it is completely original (non-trek, non-ADB, non-stargate... etc.) and not in .mod format then yes, you could theoretically sell it. But if it is a Trek or ADB model then sale of the product is strictly prohibited by law. 

I understand the idea of modelling for one's own pleasure, but I just think it is much more rewarding and fun to share the fruits of your labours, isn't it?

This also has no bearing on anyone that does not want to release a model because by doing so they lose the rights to the design. If these markings are in the textures, the textures could be altered or they could use the mesh and add new textures. Has there really been that big a drop off in the models that are being released because of model theft?

You really need to test my system before you can comment. Try and strip the marks and send the file back to me. It is considerably more sophisitcated than you assume.

I'm not sure that there has been a significant drop off in model releases because of plagiarism, but I do tire of listening to the whining when there are ways to effectively indelibly mark your models as your own so there is no question as to who the original creator was.  And here I thought that the Dynaverse server admins were the worst bunch of dramaqueen primadaonnas (myself included). I just don't like to see the strife, Dynaverse.Net and SFC is supposed to be about fun and games - not unnecessary stress, we all get enough of that everywhere else in life. I'm just interested in fostering a fun an relaxing place to hang out.

[Tus-XC]

try break bonks system, as it is we have already managed to upgrade it some (well i should say bonk did and i tested the idear ) IN order to find all the marks you would actually have to 1.  Know they were there and 2. be bored enough to remove them...  I understand that we can tell whose work is whose by the model (i can tell my work from wz's, each of us has our own lil way of doing things) but this process defentaly adds another level to that.  As it is i'll be updating the mccoy to include these things to better accomondate atolm's wishes. 

[intermech]

Hidden marks are great, but if they are hidden, aren't we back to square one? I thought the objective was to be very clear on who the modeller was, not hide it for some cyber archeologist to find 246 years from now.

-blunt I know, but please entertain this reation.

[Tus-XC]

the idea is that there would be no question who the owner was thats the idea behind the marks.

[Mr_Tricorder]

the idea is that there would be no question who the owner was thats the idea behind the marks.

Only if the hidden marks were plainly visible for anyone to see without having to dig for them.  Whether or not the marks are there, someone can take the model, delete the readme, post it as theirs, and the only people who would know the difference would be anyone who already knew who really made the model and anyone who knows about the hidden marks (which would most likely already fit in the first group).

I like the idea of the hidden marks and I applaud Bonk on his efforts, but I'm somewhat skeptical that it would have any significant real world impact.  What we really need is a permanently attached readme.

[Tus-XC]

....... wel right now those hidden marks are about as close as we can get to a "permantly" attached readme....

[Red_Green]

I understand the idea of modelling for one's own pleasure, but I just think it is much more rewarding and fun to share the fruits of your labours, isn't it?

Well I have released 99.999% of what I have finished but I don't believe it brought me any pleasure really.  Mostly ridicule and disdain from folks wondering why I bother putting out such crap.  Oh wait thats called feedback.

No seriously, you might want to contact the modelers that were saying they would not post models because of others taking the credit. Because it sounded like they had made up their mind already not to release anymore. I am sure you could find a few modelers that would be willing to test it out. I might try it myself with the next model I release.  It sounds like a good idea.

[jayvt3]

Well Ship_Rods an honest effort is better than no effort at all.  I'm sure that there will be those that criticize but dey jus' haters yo!!! Time fo da biatch slappin' to begin!!!!

[S31-Riptide]

I think there are more than 3 big mods out there. There is a TOS mod that swaps out all ships and a SFB mod that swaps all ships as well.

Sorry, I should say the 3 Uber mods that have stood the test of time... I should not have left out Dom Wars, GAW.  Yes in TOS, Cozbo replaced all of the stock ship models...but if you look over at Battleclinic, you will see 933 Fed models 343 Klink models 344 Romy models (can you believe the Roms have more models there then the Klinks? modelers get to work!!! lol). I'm not sure about the SFB mod.. new one for me.  What I was getting at was that if you wanted to replace the Federation, Klingon, Romulan and Borg... that your sellection was limited and you had to be creative as how to bring it all together and make it look like they all belonged...with permissions from each modeler for slight to major modifications etc... but the thread has definetly moved on from there.  By bad lol.

I have not heard the, saving space by removing the readme files in close to 2 years... back when the big WT was around.  What most modelers did not know is that most Modders reduced the textures to 8bit or less... that is what really helped save space... but the whole removing for space arguement is no more... hasn't been in a couple years. 

It is unthinkable for anyone to remove a readme file from a model folder. I would never do it.  I have, in the past forgotten my own readme files for my work, later to find them uploaded to BC or other sites... no biggy, the uploader was nice enough to put down where he found the files from.

Ok, here is my explaination for Game or Fame... I'll try not to be too graphic... lol 

I don't get what you mean about doing it for the fame.

Game... I do it for the game...
Do I make models/mods so that gamers have new ships to fly, new mods for them to be in... do I do it with little or no strings attached.  Do I make models/mods because I love the game and the great communities behind the game??? Do I spend too much time just for others to have fun???  This is for the game.

Fame.. I do it for the fame...
Do I make models/mods so I can bask in the glory of others talking about my super work... do I  toss off under the desk when I get a couple compliments??? Do I put heavy restrictions on who can use... how they use... or even... who can't use???  I do it so that I am thought of as a god... to hell with the lowly, untallented gamers/modders... they don't hold a candle to the work I do!!!  This is for the Fame.

Now the list below... there may be some circumstances to these Classifications that not all are aware of, and I'm not singling anyone out, but tell me what you think others.. nonmodelers/modders would think of each catagory and what would be there first impression of the author... read the defs. above then read these....

I DON'T CARE MAKE IT PINK IF YOU WANT
CREDITS NEEDED ONLY
NOTIFY (dont need permission, but they want to know what your doing)
ASK PERMISSION
NO MODIFICATION AT ALL
DO NOT UPLOAD TO MASS-MODEL SITES (Kitbashes or Originals)


Now I have figured out (even with my daftness from reading posts) that there are some that do not, for some reason, care for the other games, and do not want others to convert from one game or another... I can't believe it is soley because of copyright/ownership rights...  Is there a bit of snobbery here??? honest question.. or is there fear of the unknown communities that the models may go to?  Honest answers please.

As to marking models, hey that is a great idea... I won't mark mine as I really don't care what the next guy down the line does with it... they can texture it Pink...with yellow pocadots for all I care... if it makes them happy.  It just seems alot of extra work so someone can point the finger and scream foul... probably on deaf ears anyways... the ones that delete readme files... don't really give a rats hiny if you get angry, scream, cry or threaten... and the bad ones are extremely few and far between... Folks, I wouldn't lose any sleep over this... life is too short!!!

I've said this before, and most don't get it...

If you make a model and make renderings of it, but you don't allow the models use... and no one can see or use it in 3d form (in a game) Is it really a model? or just a picture?

Now, please, no one go off the deep end on this one... this is just some thought for discussion...
No Chickens where hurt during the making of this post.
This is a test and only a test... if this was the real deal... we would all be sorry!!! lol

Time for Coffee... it is too early for me to even try and make sense of my own argument! lol

 

[Tus-XC]

Game... I do it for the game...
Do I make models/mods so that gamers have new ships to fly, new mods for them to be in... do I do it with little or no strings attached.  Do I make models/mods because I love the game and the great communities behind the game??? Do I spend too much time just for others to have fun???  This is for the game.

Fame.. I do it for the fame...
Do I make models/mods so I can bask in the glory of others talking about my super work... do I  toss off under the desk when I get a couple compliments??? Do I put heavy restrictions on who can use... how they use... or even... who can't use???  I do it so that I am thought of as a god... to hell with the lowly, untallented gamers/modders... they don't hold a candle to the work I do!!!  This is for the Fame.

As i mentioned before thats rather narrow, i fit in neither, my reasons for doing models are simply to make them and enjoy the challenge of the creation.  So forgive me when i release them i put some restriction on what i want done with it. 

As a side note my reasons for having my readme (if you have ever read it it sounds strict) stem not from having my model ported against my wishes (as a matter of fact you can ask SF or ZZ, as long as its my own work i will say ok) but are a result of someone attacking my character by making a general post over at BC instead of contacting me through my 3 e-mail addresses to have the problem resolved.  As you said there are more reason than what are made available for why we have our policies, and my character and honor if you'll forgive are a bit more important to me than a game.

I DON'T CARE MAKE IT PINK IF YOU WANT
CREDITS NEEDED ONLY
NOTIFY (dont need permission, but they want to know what your doing)
ASK PERMISSION
NO MODIFICATION AT ALL
DO NOT UPLOAD TO MASS-MODEL SITES (Kitbashes or Originals)

When i first read these i don't know, guess its the way i am, but i didn't think nothing of it. I figured that was their right to place some restrictions, they are the ones who put the work into it, not me the user.  Here are some things i see htat leads to each of those above limitations.  They are all a result of someone not respecting the author at some point in time.  For example i believe a few people had notify as their policy and went to ask permission when people wouldn't even do the notifying part.  Sure it stands to reason that if they wouldn't notify them in the first place then an ask permission won't do crap either.  the idear is that by upping the the persmissions level you draw attention to the problem and hopefully prevent it in the future.

I however am a bit wierd, my policy stemed from the fact i was textureing or modeling atolm's models/schematics he has done, whcih in turn resulted in a policy that respected his wishes. 

Now I have figured out (even with my daftness from reading posts) that there are some that do not, for some reason, care for the other games, and do not want others to convert from one game or another... I can't believe it is soley because of copyright/ownership rights...  Is there a bit of snobbery here??? honest question.. or is there fear of the unknown communities that the models may go to?  Honest answers please.

Nope no snobbery, unless you don't consider the dozens of circumstance that could lead to such policies. 

If you make a model and make renderings of it, but you don't allow the models use... and no one can see or use it in 3d form (in a game) Is it really a model? or just a picture?

As i said before your two classifications are slightly flawed.  by your system you would classify this as "fame".  However this is not the case, for example have you considered the amount of detail that a render only model has?  its way to much for a game, and thus could never be utilized in game.  or the fact the only reason the model was made was for the picture, which for most would be the challenge of creating it.  These stem neither from game nor fame, but from the idea that modeling is done for the individual, with neither the need for compliments or the need to see people use it but for the pure satifaction of creating. 

Now, please, no one go off the deep end on this one... this is just some thought for discussion...
No Chickens where hurt during the making of this post.
This is a test and only a test... if this was the real deal... we would all be sorry!!! lol

Time for Coffee... it is too early for me to even try and make sense of my own argument! lol

 

I personaly have no problem with your arguement, as it is we both have totally differing point of views.  One comes for a community in which it is common for people to just release stuff for others and the community (ie modding) the other is of a community whose work is done by the individual for the individual, two totally differing concepts, whcih i can defintly see could lead to scratching of heads wondering why a person of the other view would think like that

[Sandman3D]

Why do I do this? That's an interesting question...with as many answers as there are modelers. For me, it's not about fame...though I wouldn't mind getting noticed by a game developer. Also, it's not for the game. I do it for me mainly, the challenge of creating a low poly model that looks good in game and as renders...difficult to achieve. I release them because I want people to use them in game, or make pretty pics etc. I am at the point in my learning that I want to try a high poly model (100,000+ polies) where I don't have to worry about what the game can handle; as long as my machine can handle it that's all I care about. That's why my policy is so easy...hell, lately I've been forgetting to include a readme in my releases. Eventually, I'll probably stop releasing models, but only because I've moved on to bigger and better models.

As to tagging models, well, thieves have proven they are resouceful and a way will be found. It's just too much of a headache to stress over...release what you don't mind being in general circulation, don't release everything else.

[Bonk]

As to tagging models, well, thieves have proven they are resouceful and a way will be found. It's just too much of a headache to stress over...release what you don't mind being in general circulation, don't release everything else.

Clearly you have not attempted to defeat my tagging system. It would be less work to simply create your own model. 

[S31-Riptide]

I guess I could rephrase it as....

Do you do it for the Game, or the Fame, or because I love to model, or my Great Aunt Ethel makes me!    as you can see.... that just doesn't roll off the tongue as well lol

Does your tagging hold up even after porting or multiple porting to multiple formats???  I won't even attempt to defeat the Bonk System...  Can we dub it the Bonk System.... kinda like secret code.... this model protected by the Bonk System.... Quick Bonk... License it now!!! lol j/k not to make light of a good tag system... I just like the name Bonk System.. it would keep them guessing!

[Tus-XC]

would Yes answer that question concerning the tags....

[Red_Green]

I just d/l a fairly recent mod for SFC3. Whats interesting is the mod readme gives no credit to any modelers texturers or converters. The creator of the overall mod of course is mentioned several times. This mod has its own web site as well. I checked it out and there are in game screens of ships (nothing odd there) but then I saw pictures of a wip of a ship from early on to completion. Pics that may have come from this forum. No credits are given for the ship so you get the impression that it is implied that the creator of the overall mod was involved in the making of the ships as well.

People ask quesions of the overall mod creator asking him to tweak textures here and there and statedhe did a good job on this ship or that ship. This is what bugs me. As a modeler I do not care so much if I do not recieve recognition for my time spent, but I find it annoying when someone who did not model or texture a ship is getting recogintion for it. This is not a blatent case where someone is claiming someone elese work as there own. They just fail to mention anyone that made a contributuion. I do not want to say any specifics as I have come to accept that this is now the norm. In the past modders were better at crediting.

It is because of this type of non- crediting in mods has become the norm that makes me feel like a model peon. Sounds like some bad jobs I have had. Most of us have been in a situation where we do the work or have an idea and then someone else takes the credit. It sucks, and there really is no excuse in my mind why a modder can't make a list of contributors that he used material from for his mod.

[Red_Green]

 

Now I have figured out (even with my daftness from reading posts) that there are some that do not, for some reason, care for the other games, and do not want others to convert from one game or another... I can't believe it is soley because of copyright/ownership rights...  Is there a bit of snobbery here??? honest question.. or is there fear of the unknown communities that the models may go to?  Honest answers please.

I restricted the models I release not to be converted to other formats due to what I saw at BC files. Namely that 1 person is uploading hundreds or perhaps even a thousand models over there. Credits are inclued in the d/l file but in ALL CAPS is the person who converted the file to the game. The person converted the ships to game is getting all the recognition for its release to that game. When the orignally measure or modeler may have spent 10 hours on a ship does it seem fair that the person that spent 20 minutes converting it gets all the recognition. This is compounded by the fact that when the ship was WIP it is the modeler who takes the criticism for anything being off by 2 microns. Even the person who later converts the file is one of the most crritical, then after the modeler makes all the corrections he is forgotten about and who ever adds it to thier mod or converts it to a new game essentially gets athe acollades.  TO make matters worse theperson who converts most of the files to BC has no tact or politeness but pretty much demands a modeler to fix things.

All this contributes to an atmosphere that this modeling in the forums is more like a job than a hobby. For all the hassle I would rather limit my releases to the SFC community. Now I have heard it said that once released its freeware and anybody can do whatever they want with it. Just kepp in mind that yes -that is true, but every modler has a point where they will say enough is enough. It seems to me that the ones that put there time into it should have some say.

[S31-Riptide]

I just d/l a fairly recent mod for SFC3. Whats interesting is the mod readme gives no credit to any modelers texturers or converters.

I put my readme credits for my mod in the opening movie... where people will actually see it!

The standard for sfc3 and credits is keeping the readme file intact.  I personally give a blanket thank you to all the model makers in my mod in my opening movie, not necessarily on my site, as I have little time to update my site either, I've spent 2 weeks making 6 mission scripts, I have 8-10 more to go before I'm done... If I've used alot of one particular modelers models, then I break the norm and actually thank them by name... Kane comes to mind, as he release alot of Species 8472 models and a breen base and a few other models.  As to a huge credits list... that is a double edged sword that is very time consuming, my current model folder has 272 folders (models) in it, and if I where to forget one modeler on the credits list, now that would just cause holy heck to break loose.  I have always told people that if they liked a particular model, to check out the readme file... credit where credit is due...

But I can say this... the week before a mod is released is an extremely intense week.... 20 things to finish before the release, with 200 people screaming for a campaign, that is part of the release, the campaign.  There is not always time to dot all i's and cross all t's.

I'm currious as to which mod you downloaded Rod.  I can't speak for most of the others, but most modders try to give credit.... If I had to write out a "Credits List" like the movies do... there there would 50+ modelers  20 beta testers, Suport people, download hosting sites and forums to thank etc...  the next topic for my Blog (oh god yes I started a Blog! AHHH) will be the insane trials and tribulations ("step by step" what is involved with making a mod from begining to release), it will be informative and funny... I'll drop a link here... It will be worth it for educational and comical value....

As to what modelers do with there models, that is there business.  I can't argue with that, nor would I... The community will always make up there minds as to how a modder or modeler is remembered.

For those who would like to check out the credits I give... go to the following sites

www.chaoticnetwork.com       there are links here to my Sedition site, plus Chaotic Main which is the main Campaign node.
www.sfc3.net   my site, Download  Sedition V1.0  just load it up and sit back and watch the opening movie for credit information
http://sfc3.puterz.net    forums for sedition are located there with Unity, Island Wars ,Uncertain Destiny, A time to stand, and soon Sci Fi Wars
                                  you will find much talk about everything mod related, even talk about what models used and why.
http://www.startrek-gamers.com/logs/index.php?blog=7     My Blog .... stay tuned for the Crazy Mad Modders rants on Modding

[Red_Green]

Hi Riptide. Well it was not your mod but I hesitate to mention the mod specifically because these things tend to implode sometimes. The mod in question does not have a campaign as of yet and is a beta though unzipped it is over 700mb. Perhaps they intend to add credits in the full release. I don't know. I appreciate the way you credit. I did not watch the opening movie on the mod in question as I didn't realize that could even be swapped out. I just feel that a mod should at least have a blanket statement in general just thanks the modlers, texturers and people who converted files, did missions etc. Even for a beta because just from reading peoples comments on the mod, I get the impression that a few people believe that the mod author is responsible for the enitre content. There are many people who frequent different sites where the mod is available that are not aware of this forum and in many cases they are seeing a ship in game for the 1st time when it was available a few years ago in this forum.

I released a mod of my own, but because I modeled before I modded, I was keenly aware of crediting issues. I credited every contributer in the main readme. Plus each model folder has a readme and I also put the credits in game. You can scroll down and see them at the bottom of the ship descriptions.  Then I had a statement that if I made any errors in crediting to please contact me. Which if they do contact me I hope they realize that any mistakes were unintentional. I guess my point is, we constantly have new people coming to the game and new people modding it, so there will always be an entire spectrum range of how people handle credits. In the case I describe I don't think its necessarliy wrong, especially because I believe the modder does not frequent this forum. I am sure they just see it as making more ships available to more people.

I don't want to make too much of it really. I can say that my expections are usually way to high in regards to matters like this. If it were up to me, anyone that released a game mod would need to take crediting 101 and be certified and take an oath