Topic: just batting an idea around in my head

[Bartok]

I too love the sound of this!!

Not being an SFBer the "early" years are really intriguing to me.  Some of what I've seen of the backstory from SFB sounds REALLY COOL.  Would love to fly some Warp4 Destroyer/CL...

All the mods suggested so far sound great.  More center hull, built in ECM to simulate older weapons.  Phaser 3's and 2's.  I think early era fighter craft would be cool too.  Was looking for a weblink I had to include w/this post but can't...

Anyhow - Psych

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Don't get too excited, if this is actually investigated further it will take a long time, and I'd likely need some expert help piecing things together.

The main assistance I'd want is from Scippy and I don't know if he is interested or not, but I do know even if he were interested he's got Econ Wars as a more pressing item right now. 

Still I love the imput, some really good thoughts here.

[NuclearWessels]

One problem I do foresee would be the need for much smaller mission maps, starting 100 clicks away with a functional combat speed of 10 would be a bit annoying IMHO.

np, we can certainly recompile a set of missions with some smaller maps

sounds like a cool server Chuut!

dave

[Nemesis]

Long ago I read something in SFB to the effect that at one time the standard Klingon CA was the D6 with only 24 warp.  Perhaps it could be implemented as a K-FD6 with the enhanced warp and substituting Ph2 for 2 of the diisruptors like the fast cruisers of later eras?  (Enhanced compared to the other K-D6s with 20 warp).

As victory conditions each side might be able to make these in limited numbers when they take certain "Old Kings" salvage.  Rather like the server where whoever held Organia could make some X-Ships earlier than the other races.

[Dfly]

There was also the Pre-Warp Warbirds for the Roms.  This was known as Sub-light ships.  Klingons had some and I do beleive Feds and Gorns too could play on the Sub-light SFB game.  This is all from memory from 25yrs ago but I know they had a sub-light game with ship schematics.  I will go see if I can dig up some info on those ships and post it here for review.  Perhaps they have some weapon combos, engine mods, etc.. which could interest this idea.  Will get back to here this evening.

[Dfly]

Alrighty then.  Found what I was looking for.  Some of it has great ideas, some not.  I will put as much as I can. take what you want.

 1- Sublight ship races were Rom, Gorn, Fed, Mirak, Klink
 2- each race had 2 type ships.  most had 1 heavy + 1 frig.      I think we need more than that.
 3 -All ships had no:  probes, torpedoes, plasma torpedoes, phasers, warp engines, tractor beams, transporters, boarding parties, emergency deceleration, cloaking devices, drone racks and shields(was exceptions)., (most can be adjusted to our game as seen fit for being usable and fun).
 4- top speed was 6, impulse engines could move up to speed 3 per impulse, with allowances of up to 2 impulse for movement(see suggestion way below)
 5- HET were allowed but not EM .  ECM/ECCM aparantly was allowed (but that is optional).
 6- All ships had Lasers for the later installed phaser mounts.
 7- All heavy weapons were changed back to Atomic missiles.

Lasers: - fire like a phaser but do 1 point of damage reguardless of range.  Probability of hit decreases with range.
          - Range          0-1      2-4    5-7       8-10        11-15
            Hit on          1-5      1-4    1-3        1-2            1
            Miss on          6       5-6    4-6        3-6          2-6

Remember, no shields, but there is some armor.(can be represented as hull)

Atomic Missiles: - In actual fact they are really a drone rack with 4 sets of reloads.
                      - Missiles are speed 12(twice as fast as fastest ship- perhaps an idea there?)
                      - Missiles die in 3 turns(same as now)
                      - Missiles die with 1 point of damage(Laser takes it out if it hits it, also Missiles can take them out)
                      - Missiles do 4 points of damage

Sublight ships can use repair

List of ships available (for SFB sublight)                                               turn mode

Fed CA         bpv 100         has minimum shields(same as in nebula)          2              has lasers + 4 atomic missiles
Fed CL          bpv  80         no shields                                                   2              has lasers + 2 atomic missiles

Klink D6        bpv 100         has minimum shields                                     2              has lasers + 4 atomic missiles
Klink F5         bpv  80         no shields but 5 Armor                                  1             has lasers + 2 a.m.

Rom WB       bpv 80          no shields                                                    1             has lasers + 2 a.m.
Rom WH       bpv 90          no shields but 5 fighters + their a.m.               1             has lasers + 2 a.m. and 5 fighters
Rom Ftr        bpv   5                                                                           1             has 1 laser(range 5) + 1 a.m.

Kzn CS         bpv 110        no shields but add 10 armor                            2             has lasers + a.m.(see below)
Kzn FF          bpv  80         no shields                                                     1            has lasers, all drones to a.m.

Grn BB         bpv 110        no shields but add 10 armor (use CA)                3            has lasers + 4 a.m.
Grn DD         bpv  75        add 5 armor                                                   1            has lasers + 2 a.m.

    shuttle        bpv 2            top speed 3                                               1             1 laser range 5

Base Station   bpv 100         add 20 armor                                                              lasers + 4 a.m.


ALL SHIPS(except below).  1 phaser = 1 laser


 
 CS  1 phaser 1 = 1 laser                bank of 2 phaser 3 = 1 laser    center bank of 3 phaser 3 = 2 lasers



suggest moving top speed by double.  ships to 12, drones to 24, fighters shuttles to 6.
suggest also perhaps a modified plasma F( weaker?) due to slower ships, to replace some atomic missiles maybe
suggest modified dizzies photons if it can be done.
suggest more ship choices as well.


I am sure other ideas will stem from this. 

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Interesting stuff there Dfly, but much likely won't work with game mechanics, for example I don't think you can have a drone that dies from taking 1 pt of damage in sfc.

Additionally I have no desire for such a campaign concept to include the other races as this would be set prior to contact with them, although the Hydrans would be a possibility as they were a subject race of the Klingon Empire at one point in their history I believe.

[GDA-S'Cipio]

Don't get too excited, if this is actually investigated further it will take a long time, and I'd likely need some expert help piecing things together.

The main assistance I'd want is from Scippy and I don't know if he is interested or not, but I do know even if he were interested he's got Econ Wars as a more pressing item right now. 

Still I love the imput, some really good thoughts here.

I appreciate your kind words and your high opinion of how much help I'd be.

The early years modules don't have any non-Klink "Klingon" starships.  In SFB, there weren't really any other navies to fight against in order to take over their Empire as all the races were conquered by the Old Kings before they wandered from their home worlds.  The Klinks were used mostly for military crews and thus when the Kings left they were in prime position to take over.  The other races didn't really have a say since the Klinks had the Old Kings navy, and the rest had nothing.  If there was some fighting it would have been with the same ships on all sides.   (Kind of like KCW, only slower.)

However, that doesn't mean you'd have to do your server that way.  If you wanted to do an alternate Klingon Conquest campaign with lots of different navies that could be cool.

Another option:  Many of the Federation core members did develop their own navies and it was some time after they began working together that the Humans power-played them all into combining into one unified fleet.    The Early Years modules do have ships for the early humans, Andorians, Tellerites, Vulcans, Orions, and Rigellians, and one other I think.

I have already translated most of these into SFC for my (still struggling and maybe abortive) Birth of Empires server.  It's got some problems, but a lot of the work is done.  You could run with your idea with the Feds instead of the Klinks, or subsitute all instances of photons with disruptors and call them all Klingon Client races.

Problems I've encountered so far:

1) Ships are SSSLLLLLOOOOOOOWWWWW.  You are right about the map.  Closing the range for that first pass is an exercise in tedium, and the fight afterwards feels like you are barely moving.  (Because you are barely moving.)  I'd seriously considered running this campaign at speed 10 in order to compensate for the complaints I was expecting on this issue.

2) Drones.  Drones for these ships should be 6 points of damage and should be speed 8.  Unfortunatley they do 12 damage and go speed 16.  (See my above comment about slow ships!  With slow ships, no AMD, and limited phasers, virtually every drone is a guaranteed hit!!!)    In EAW I swear I was able to fix this by making the ships carry fighter drones, but in OP I can't make that work.  (they still carry regular donres, just fewer of them if you give them fighter drone bays.)

One idea I had on fixing this (suggested by GDT-Ujin) was by upping ship speed.  If I see what the max speed was relative to 8 that ships could do with everything armed, and give them the same thing relative to 16 with everything armed, maybe this would work out.   But I haven't taken the time to test that since I got frustrated and started working on other servers.

-S'Cipio

[Dfly]

Interesting stuff there Dfly, but much likely won't work with game mechanics, for example I don't think you can have a drone that dies from taking 1 pt of damage in sfc.

Additionally I have no desire for such a campaign concept to include the other races as this would be set prior to contact with them, although the Hydrans would be a possibility as they were a subject race of the Klingon Empire at one point in their history I believe.

I just added the information available for the pre-warp era for the other races. 

Also, the basics of the drone dying from 1 point hit could translate to some type of weapon that guarantees 4 points of damage in order to take out a standard drone(such as proxy photons hit for 4, but I dont know if they can be adjusted to hit at close range, which would imitate a 1 shot kill on drone.)  Imagine, replace all phasers(or pairs of phasers?) with  1proxy photon, doing 4 points reguardless of range.

anyway, as stated, just ideas, take what you can of it.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Another option:  Many of the Federation core members did develop their own navies and it was some time after they began working together that the Humans power-played them all into combining into one unified fleet.    The Early Years modules do have ships for the early humans, Andorians, Tellerites, Vulcans, Orions, and Rigellians, and one other I think.

Didn't I spin this idea to you during a visit to you in DC about 2 or 3 years ago, the time we met up with Gwarlock? 

2) Drones.  Drones for these ships should be 6 points of damage and should be speed 8.  Unfortunatley they do 12 damage and go speed 16.  (See my above comment about slow ships!  With slow ships, no AMD, and limited phasers, virtually every drone is a guaranteed hit!!!)    In EAW I swear I was able to fix this by making the ships carry fighter drones, but in OP I can't make that work.  (they still carry regular donres, just fewer of them if you give them fighter drone bays.)

Another posibility as far as the warhead strenght might be using slow MIRVS.  The speed would still be 16 but the warheads would be reduced and they could be shot down more easily.  You'd simply replace all the drone launchers with 1 MIRV launcher.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

BTW scippy, I think new races could be designed for the Klingon affair.  You got that turtle boat race for one possibility, and you also could use early Hydrans.  Creating a few other shouldn't be impossible for creative minds, I did basically design the Lyran ships you know 

[KBF-Soth]

A long long time ago this was discussed using Bab 5 Earth Civil War.Heavy armor, slowdrones,ph 3 and a ph 1 for a beam weapon on smaller ships .The BCH was gonna have  a heavy Dizzy for it's beam weapon and go slow.