Topic: Poll/Discussion: AI support in PvP

[NuclearWessels]

OK, now that I've finally got VC installed and debugged again, I'm looking at cleaning up issues in the commonly used missions.

A priority is to get rid of AI in PvP missions, but wanted to make sure I didn't get carried away, hence the question.  I'd fall anywhere in the 2-4 category, but am happy to set things up however the community wants.

(I wanted to get the question posted while we still have lots of KCW activity on the boards, hopefully to get as much feedback as possible.)

dave

[GDA-S'Cipio]

A good poll!  I'm going to be very curious to see how it comes out.

Personally, I think there should be enough AI to even the odds.  I always enjoyed the old missions when AI showed up to help the undergunned side.  Yes, I know AI "help" is an experience in frustration and some races have better AI than others, but it's the best help we've got.  In the old das outgunned pilots used to stick around for a pass or two hoping to get lucky, trying to use their AI as a shield.  In the new days of strickly human players, the undergunned ship often just leaves.  (Caveat:  your AI "help" has to have enough marines to make capture difficult.)

The AI stripping also feeds the move to get into the biggest ship possible.  It's not responsible by any stretch of the imagination, that just competitiveness.  But facing fewer ships per mission when fighting humans might give some a reason to stick with the smaller ships they say they enjoy.

What I did NOT enjoy in the old missions was when the heavier side would get AI help and the weaker side wouldn't.  Or when two equal sides would get unequal AI help.  I suspect these situations are part of what brought on the current push to eliminate AI help.

(Please note that "equal" is a broad term in my above paragraphs.)

-S'Cipio

[Hexx]

I'd agree with S'cipio- if it can be set up so the side that's ougunned gets a reasonable ally I'm all for it
On many occasions though I'd be flying a BCH, get drafted by a human with a DN, and have hte human player get a BCH as AI
while I got a CW or smaller.

~ Again though even as I type this I'm not sure- many races have AI that can work very well  (anything with 4+ drone racks, Hydran hellbore ships, some plasma chuckers, anything with plasma PF's) and some aren't so great (ie pretty much anything with an ESG)
Plus I suppose having a NAC as your opponents AI help might ruin a drone player's day.

Perhaps it is best to simply remove the AI from the match.

[762_XC]

~ Again though even as I type this I'm not sure- many races have AI that can work very well  (anything with 4+ drone racks, Hydran hellbore ships, some plasma chuckers, anything with plasma PF's) and some aren't so great (ie pretty much anything with an ESG)
Plus I suppose having a NAC as your opponents AI help might ruin a drone player's day.

Perhaps it is best to simply remove the AI from the match.

What shorty said. AI and PvP don't mix, unless you are tackling a base or planet.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

I think I heard you mention in another thread that ai can be configured to take into account the number of players and BPV of all ships not just the drafter.  I would be very interested in seeing if these missions would work. 

[FPF-DieHard]

Strip AI out of patrols.  THis ruins PvP.   Leave it for the assaults and some less common special missions.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

A good poll!  I'm going to be very curious to see how it comes out.

Personally, I think there should be enough AI to even the odds.  I always enjoyed the old missions when AI showed up to help the undergunned side.  Yes, I know AI "help" is an experience in frustration and some races have better AI than others, but it's the best help we've got.  In the old das outgunned pilots used to stick around for a pass or two hoping to get lucky, trying to use their AI as a shield.  In the new days of strickly human players, the undergunned ship often just leaves.  (Caveat:  your AI "help" has to have enough marines to make capture difficult.)

The AI stripping also feeds the move to get into the biggest ship possible.  It's not responsible by any stretch of the imagination, that just competitiveness.  But facing fewer ships per mission when fighting humans might give some a reason to stick with the smaller ships they say they enjoy.

What I did NOT enjoy in the old missions was when the heavier side would get AI help and the weaker side wouldn't.  Or when two equal sides would get unequal AI help.  I suspect these situations are part of what brought on the current push to eliminate AI help.

(Please note that "equal" is a broad term in my above paragraphs.)

-S'Cipio

Totally agree with Scippy.

[Bonk]

A good poll!  I'm going to be very curious to see how it comes out.

Personally, I think there should be enough AI to even the odds.  I always enjoyed the old missions when AI showed up to help the undergunned side.  Yes, I know AI "help" is an experience in frustration and some races have better AI than others, but it's the best help we've got.  In the old das outgunned pilots used to stick around for a pass or two hoping to get lucky, trying to use their AI as a shield.  In the new days of strickly human players, the undergunned ship often just leaves.  (Caveat:  your AI "help" has to have enough marines to make capture difficult.)

The AI stripping also feeds the move to get into the biggest ship possible.  It's not responsible by any stretch of the imagination, that just competitiveness.  But facing fewer ships per mission when fighting humans might give some a reason to stick with the smaller ships they say they enjoy.

What I did NOT enjoy in the old missions was when the heavier side would get AI help and the weaker side wouldn't.  Or when two equal sides would get unequal AI help.  I suspect these situations are part of what brought on the current push to eliminate AI help.

(Please note that "equal" is a broad term in my above paragraphs.)

-S'Cipio

Totally agree with Scippy.

What they said.

[Dfly]

agreed

[Dizzy]

Make sure you leave me with a few patrols 2v2's that still have AI in them for variety. I can remember some stellar battles involving AI help. So much fun.

[Lepton]

I'll express an extremely minority view here.  I'd like to see even more AI in PvP missions.  To me a 2v2 or even 3v3 via whatever combo of AI and human ships does not capture the scale of an actual fleet battle.  These are more like border skrimishes to me.  I understand the desire for some PvP jousting on server.  This is why the press for AI stripping, but to me in an gaming environment where the maximum number of ships in a mission is 6 due to player choices and server conventions, i.e 1 person 1 ship / no fleets, I'd really like to see an option, at least an option, for some larger battles.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

I'll express an extremely minority view here.  I'd like to see even more AI in PvP missions.  To me a 2v2 or even 3v3 via whatever combo of AI and human ships does not capture the scale of an actual fleet battle.  These are more like border skrimishes to me.  I understand the desire for some PvP jousting on server.  This is why the press for AI stripping, but to me in an gaming environment where the maximum number of ships in a mission is 6 due to player choices and server conventions, i.e 1 person 1 ship / no fleets, I'd really like to see an option, at least an option, for some larger battles.

Don't fully agree Lepton but definately a +1 for you for expressing an origional idea for consideration, keep thinking "out of the box" some of us appreciate very much the chance to consider new ideas.   

[IAF Lyrkiller]

Yes, I would like to see larger ships come in for help.
 
I dont know how many tiimes I had my but handed to me by AI. for that matter outgunned.

[762_XC]

I forsee a lot of problems with this. All AI is not equal.

When it affects mission times that's one thing; when it alters the outcome of a PvP, that's horrendous.

[Dizzy]

I forsee a lot of problems with this. All AI is not equal.

When it affects mission times that's one thing; when it alters the outcome of a PvP, that's horrendous.

Yeah, you have some personal experience with this, dont you, tool. HAHAHAHA 

[Nemesis]

One of the more fun online missions I had was a 1vs1 where we each had 2 helping AI in an asteroid field.  Even though the other side had the edge in fire power I quite enjoyed it.  We were both in Fed ships (Fed vs Evil Empire server I forgot the name)

Another of my more memorable online battles was long ago in EAW where I (as a Romulan) was drafted to defend a convoy vs 2 Feds and a Mirak (with 2 ships).  Any one of their ships was approximately equal to mine and it was a heck of a battle trying to save the convoy while doing as much damage as possible.  If the convoy mission was updated so it could but not must draft more defenders that would be good.

AI and unbalanced battles add spice they should happen at least part of the time.

[762_XC]

Hey, just because you were afraid to fight me fair. 

[KBF-Crim]

I'm with Lepton.....

StarFLEET Command...

[Lepton]

Some of the most fun I ever had, which I am sure you will all say is heresy, with AI was in SFC3 in these fleet action missions that had 12 ships in it, 3 per side, 4 different sides.  That's alot of ships to shoot at.  Long missions, yes, but also pretty enjoyable.  Also I'll put in a plug for AI control in missions.  EEK missions are great for that.  You can usual corral the AI for one good pass.  I say this not as a criticism of existing missions, but only to say that AI is not all bad if you are talking about getting actual fleets going.  In fact, they are required.

[FPF-DieHard]

Can somebody PLEASE teach Dizzy how to convert BMPs to JPEGS   

Keep the AI out of PvP "patrol" missions, let the AI stay in other missions.     

Fleet missions could server a valid purpose though, perhaps set them to trigger on certain terrain such as planet hexes?  It kinda makes sense, the fleets would congregate around assests.

[CaptJosh]

Nemesis, you're talking about Mirror, Mirror. Federation vs Terran Empire.

[Riskyllama]

Ai draws are definately unbalanced as it stands rigt now...Me and my wing were a little slow getting off a planet last nighjt and got drafted. Having to face 2 bases, chuut's dwl, an ai dwl and two small lights, and the rest of the planet stuff versus me, my wing, and two g2s was rediculous. To top it offf, we couldn't disengage because of rules. If AI could be balanced better, I'd be a little happier to see/have them.

[FPF-DieHard]

Ai draws are definately unbalanced as it stands rigt now...Me and my wing were a little slow getting off a planet last nighjt and got drafted. Having to face 2 bases, chuut's dwl, an ai dwl and two small lights, and the rest of the planet stuff versus me, my wing, and two g2s was rediculous. To top it offf, we couldn't disengage because of rules. If AI could be balanced better, I'd be a little happier to see/have them.

the problem is not the mission, it is the rules.    Planet assaults should be at a disadvantage, the server admin needs to take stuf like this in account when developing his rules and not pull stupid sh*t out of his rectum like on KCW.

[Hexx]

Ai draws are definately unbalanced as it stands rigt now...Me and my wing were a little slow getting off a planet last nighjt and got drafted. Having to face 2 bases, chuut's dwl, an ai dwl and two small lights, and the rest of the planet stuff versus me, my wing, and two g2s was rediculous. To top it offf, we couldn't disengage because of rules. If AI could be balanced better, I'd be a little happier to see/have them.

the problem is not the mission, it is the rules.    Planet assaults should be at a disadvantage, the server admin needs to take stuf like this in account when developing his rules and not pull stupid sh*t out of his rectum like on KCW.

<sigh> again.. anything coming out of my rectum is far more intelligent,prettier, and just gosh darn more popular than anything coming from you recently.
I mean seriously, this thing we're supposed to solve by using rules, not the missions, the other we're to solve using missions, not the rules.
Just because my brilliance makes you feel so....small.. is no need to get upset.

Besides how does one make a rule that outs planet assaults at a disadvantage? If you're on a planet hex you can buy a C10K? If you're attacking a planet you can only have one wingman? But then t00l would be getting all upset at me again...

[K'Hexx]

Ai draws are definately unbalanced as it stands rigt now...Me and my wing were a little slow getting off a planet last nighjt and got drafted. Having to face 2 bases, chuut's dwl, an ai dwl and two small lights, and the rest of the planet stuff versus me, my wing, and two g2s was rediculous. To top it offf, we couldn't disengage because of rules. If AI could be balanced better, I'd be a little happier to see/have them.

Agreesive attacks should always carry risks.  You got baited into a trap, tha ai draw was unfortunate, but it was really the fact that you got caught with your hands in the cookie jat more than the ai draw, althought that could have been a bit better for you I admit.

[NuclearWessels]

A bump, since now we've seen the missions on the forge and SG for a bit - have opinions changed, new voices want to weigh in?

(I can't seem to figure out how to extend the poll closing date though)

dave

[FPF-DieHard]

IMHO, AI does not belong in any "Patrol" PvP missions EVER.   

Assault missions are different, AI should be present.  Same with Convoy raids and stuff like that.

The new missions are a blast, hell of a lot of fun in Co-op

[Bonk]

A bump, since now we've seen the missions on the forge and SG for a bit - have opinions changed, new voices want to weigh in?

(I can't seem to figure out how to extend the poll closing date though)

dave

I edited the poll for you to never expire and allow the changing of your vote.

Now to take care of those bitmaps of Dizzy's...

[GDA-S'Cipio]

A bump, since now we've seen the missions on the forge and SG for a bit - have opinions changed, new voices want to weigh in?

(I can't seem to figure out how to extend the poll closing date though)

dave

No change in my opinion.  I still liked the days when AI showed up in patrols to give the smaller ship a chance to make a few passes and hope to get lucky.  "Fighting it out until the AI gets killed" was common practice.  People today, I think, are still more likely to simply run when they realize they are badly outgunned and have no help.  (And why shouldn't they?)

I also still hated the days when the bigger side got more help than the smaller side.  

Same caveat applies:  the AI "help" should have enough marines that they don't simply become another ship for the opposition.

-S'Cipio

[Dizzy]

AI should only show up when there is only one player on a side and then only oon 25% or so of the missions. Rest of the time AI should be stripped. This way... if a solo player gets drafted by two enemies, then 25% of the time or so he will get an AI wing to help out and make it a game. These missions are fun.

And perhaps one patrol in friendly space where there are 3x AI slots on both sides and players fill up those slots if present.

Other than that... this sprinkling of AI in just a few missions is all that's needed for mission diversity and fun. I think that's balanced.

[FCM_SFHQ_XC]

Well this is definetly tricky.. to me AI is both valuable and a annoyance.. While I dont think you should ALWAYS have AI in PvP.. I mean when your dealing with several opposing players(say 3 v 1) then its fair to bring in a AI to help you(after all thats what Starfleet does.. they help out their ships in distress), but when your dealing with say 2 light crusier opponents against your heavy DN then there is no need for a AI ship(thus should be stripped from it then), and even when AI is scripted to be able to help you there is always a chance that the AI wont generate. And in situations which you get AI support on both sides then you can use that as a tactical advantage on both sides, so I say keep the AI in, but only allow frigates or below to generate(so if AI generate in a Heavy vs Heavy PvP then it can easily be eliminated and if its like 3 v 1 then you can use them to either be able to get away or provide you with enough leverage to perhaps win against overwhelming odds).. either way, the limited AI generation can make some PvP games much more interesting

[FPF-DieHard]

a "sprinling" is fine, I can agree to that.

[Age]

 I went with the last one as having AI makes it a more interesting battle and 1 vs 1 is more like GSA and doesn't feel like a Dyna server and when your ship is at a lower bpv than your opponet.