Topic: Needs some help figuring out Carrier/Fighter BPV points... (Read 2039 times)

Magnum357 · « **on:** February 02, 2006, 03:14:47 am »

I'm working on a personal mod of mine and I'm having a problem. I understand in SFB that Carriers never include their BPV Cost with their Fighters, is this the case aswell with SFC OP? For example, I made some Fed Fighters that are suppose to around 7 points of BPV in there fighter list charts and I have a Fed Auxilary Carrier worth 50 BPV points. The Carrier can hold 12 fighters so I would assume that 12 X 7 BPV = 84 points BPV for the Fighters. Add that with the 50 BPV of the Carrier and you get a total of 134 BPV for both Fighters and Carrier. Yet, Shipedit and the game only comes up with a point total of 71 BPV. I must ask how the game is accounting this total, if 71 points are all that is tallied up my only guess on how they got this figure is that the 12 fighters are seperated into 4 groups of 3, and each group is only totaled of 7 BPV instead of 21 (3 Fighters Per Group X 7 BPV = 21 Points).

Ok, that is sort of confusing, but I'm having real troubles trying to balance carriers out with Custom made fighters if I don't know how the point system works in OP.

Dizzy · « **Reply #1 on:** February 02, 2006, 06:29:38 am »

There is an adjustment field in ship edit called 'balance'. It is here you add in extra bpv points to bump up a ship. Shipedit will not add in bpv for things u stick in the ftr bays.

And dont use shipedit. Use excel. TRUST ME.

edit: if you use excel, u must raise the bpv manually. Ship edit adds the base bpv and balance together for you and adjust the total. Excel doesnt.

762_XC · « **Reply #2 on:** February 02, 2006, 09:33:09 am »

SFC carriers include the default fighter cost in their BPV, ie 2 BPV per fighter.

If you are using stock, the Hydran line ships pay 1 BPV per fighter, and true carriers pay 2 BPV.

In 4.0 everything pays 2 BPV.

Magnum357 · « **Reply #3 on:** February 03, 2006, 12:11:29 am »

ok, so let me get this straight, if I use Ship edit (which I have been) and use the Balance Text box to adjust the BPV value SFC will total this wrong and I must use Excell to get the right BPV points correctly?

And so Fighters are automatically accounted as 2 points of extra BPV regardless of generation? If Hydran fighters count only as 1, how do 4.0 get them to 2 points? Can all fighters be set at 1 point or 0 points?

Dizzy · « **Reply #4 on:** February 03, 2006, 05:15:12 am »

nonononono. Dont listen to tool.

Ship edit will correctly change the bpv based on what the ship is equipped with. If you edit the balance box, it will correctly add the balance. But know that if you enter anything into the balance box, if FS or Taldrens ship bpv was altered w/o using an edit to the balance box, you'll get an adjusted figure thats incorrect. But its all relative

That 2 extra points for ftrs is something FS did. Its a guideline and bpv can be fudged depending on what you want to do with it. If its for a dyna campaign, then you have to decide some things. 1st off, there is the mission pack. Depending on which missions you choose, it will greatly affect what AI you will face. Also, will you use a seperate shipkist that adjusts droners bpv's for mission era specific loadouts? For more info go to the dyna afmins group.

Best thing to do os to use ship edit to approxomate what you are doing, and get it to auto calculate the bpv for you and then manually go to excel and input the data. If there are any spaces in shipedit for any box entries, you are hosed and there are other issues using ship edit all of which I dont understand, but that can have problems when it comes to running a dyna.

GDA-S'Cipio · « **Reply #5 on:** February 03, 2006, 11:04:05 am »

Quote from: Magnum357 on February 03, 2006, 12:11:29 am

ok, so let me get this straight, if I use Ship edit (which I have been) and use the Balance Text box to adjust the BPV value SFC will total this wrong and I must use Excell to get the right BPV points correctly?

ShipEdit automatically runs a formula for each ship and puts a value in the BPV field. Each torpedo is worht X pionts, each engine is worth Y points, and so on. The problem is, it can't creatively take into account how well each of these systms work together.

For example, is that R torp on a War Eagle really worth full value, since the ship can only go speed 21? Balance allows you to put in a fudge factor to tweak the ships into their true BPV. (Using the same example, I think that ShipEdit calculates the War Eagle to be worth 114 points, but years of SFB play have proven it is worth only 100; so it has a balance value of -14).

When you export a list from ShipEdit it adds the BPV and Balance fields together to give you a shiplist with the propeer BPV.

Excel has no formulae running the background, so you just have to enter the correct BPV into the BPV field manually.

Quote

And so Fighters are automatically accounted as 2 points of extra BPV regardless of generation? If Hydran fighters count only as 1, how do 4.0 get them to 2 points? Can all fighters be set at 1 point or 0 points?

The formulae in ShipEdit gives you one point per fighter, as it assumes your carrier is carrying the weakest possible fighters. Experience has told us that this isn't really fair, because no one ever flies on the D2 using only the weakest possible fighters. (The game isn't smart enough to raise or lower your BPV on the fly as you buy and sell fighters.)

When Firesoul created his shiplist, he increased the BPV of carriers. That's how OP+ 4.0 gets them to 2 points. Firesoul did it manually.

-S'Cipio

Dizzy · « **Reply #6 on:** February 03, 2006, 11:35:15 am »

To go further, you can edit the type of fighters the ship carries. Doing so will affect how missions are played. AI tricked out with the best fighters whos bpv is the same as a carrier w/o the best creates imbalance issues only so far as AI difficulty goes and those missions that do not AI strip.

All depends on what you are doing. Dont get hung up on bpv's. It's all about the AI draw...

Magnum357 · « **Reply #7 on:** February 03, 2006, 03:42:06 pm »

Ok, I think I get what you guys are saying. I decided to give all carriers for a given race the weakest fighters available and adjusted the BPV accordingly and the game now accounts for the BPV better. Also, if you pick more powerful fighters, the game now accounts for that more properly then before. I haven't tested this in camaign games, but will see how that goes with the AI.

Speaking of AI, I designed my fighters based off of SFB fighters and almost all fighters have speed less then 15. Is this a wise thing to do? I've notice in 4.0 that most fighters speeds are way up there and was wondering if giving such low speed valules a wise thing to do considering the limitations of the AI.

Hexx · « **Reply #8 on:** February 03, 2006, 04:21:33 pm »

Slow fighters tend to be left behind by AI and are all but useless in PvP until you've damaged an enemy
ship enough that it can't go faster than the fighters. Plus once medium speed drones are out ..

Magnum357 · « **Reply #9 on:** February 05, 2006, 01:37:27 am »

Ok, I can understand the AI not using them properly, but even slow SFB fighters are succeptable to fast drones/missiles.

Lepton · « **Reply #10 on:** February 05, 2006, 05:25:13 pm »

Quote from: Magnum357 on February 03, 2006, 03:42:06 pm

Ok, I think I get what you guys are saying. I decided to give all carriers for a given race the weakest fighters available and adjusted the BPV accordingly and the game now accounts for the BPV better. Also, if you pick more powerful fighters, the game now accounts for that more properly then before. I haven't tested this in camaign games, but will see how that goes with the AI.

Speaking of AI, I designed my fighters based off of SFB fighters and almost all fighters have speed less then 15. Is this a wise thing to do? I've notice in 4.0 that most fighters speeds are way up there and was wondering if giving such low speed valules a wise thing to do considering the limitations of the AI.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding your words, but what do you mean by "the game now accounts for" something better. Are you talking about merely representing BPVs correctly in a shiplist or are you talking about actually modifications made to some missions or the game engine itself that is allowing the game to account for additional BPVs from fighters??

Magnum357 · « **Reply #11 on:** February 06, 2006, 03:01:36 am »

I was merely talking about the BPV's of the shiplist. I don't have the programming background to make Missions for the game or anything like that. I think I got things working now for my problem. After seting carriers with the weakest fighters, the game allows for you too add more powerful fighters and raise the BPV value if needed. Before, it would not do this and the BPV would stay the same if a weaker (ie, less powerful) fighter was loaded on the carrier.

I also ran into a few problems with PF's (as I'm using the Doner system so that non-pf Races could use INT's) but I think I got it working now as long as I copy the exact same specs of a Non-PF Race's INT into the Donors shiplist section. Does anyone here know if your using a Donor system for PF/INT's that you should include INT in both the Donor and Receiving Shiplist Section? For example, you make a Fed PF and you use one of the Orion Cartel slots as the Donor race, should you make that Fed PF in both the Fed Slot and the Orion Cartel slot aswell?

Dizzy · « **Reply #12 on:** February 06, 2006, 05:19:22 am »

The entire tigerheart cartel needs to be placed above the Feds in the shiplist. Next you have to have the same pf in both donor and donated. The only thing thats different of course is the RACE name.

Magnum357 · « **Reply #13 on:** February 06, 2006, 06:35:22 pm »

Ya, I get what you mean that you need to put your PF/INT's in both the Donor and Donated slot, but I'm kinda running into a problem. For example, I have a small Auxilary PF Tender for the Feds that have Interceptors as there base PF, but if you choose other types of "Fighters" in the Fighters panel in the game, you get too pick other PF/INT's that are in the Orion Tigerheart slot, For example, I have both Fed Interceptors and Klingon Interceptors in the Orion Tigerheart slot and the game allows me too have a Fed PF Tender to pick both Fed and Klingon INT's. Is there anyway too keep the Fed Auxilary from choosing Klingon PF/INT's?

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