Topic: J'inn: You Bastard!!!!

[Slider]

KCW has done something remarkable. Its brought people out to play. Who are these people?

1. Leader\Str[spoiler][/spoiler]Sratagists leading terrain grabbers and PvP players alike with common objectives yet warry of each others intentions.

2. PvP--these folks for the most part lived (and died) in GSA to them hex fliiping was as fun as watching paint dry. All to often AI lacked the "challenge" of a human brain. Ive been on a few of these servers in the early years, I think after the 100s hexfliiping mission only to come back to a changed map lacked any strategy whatsoever....he with the most time on his hand wins.

3. Hex Flippers- they serve a vital function. Most PvP people despite todays much improved PvP would agree that just flipping hexes gets old. There are people out there that love this...this function along with PvP is whats making this server novel at least for me.

I know each house can win this , but im looking at it from 2 sides. 2 warring factions dueling it out for control of the Empire.

Our hexFlippers are sent in to grab a stategic peace of space, then there is an attempt to drive them off, usually by overwhelming force of 2-3 heavy Cruisers. The Frigate falls back and calls in his own big guns to clear the area for him. Folks Aint this what war is really about?

Ive seen the complaints and i find them selfish to an extent.

Reality is not some loan frigate assaulting enemy space only to be confronted by some Phaser 3 bearing tug.

I love the fact the AI is winning games, rightfully so. To invade and control space you need the forces to control it.

One of our allies the Hydrans guys were cut off in a corner, we are stuck in the middle between two very rowdy houses (KBF and Demons) yet we managed to open a whole to them and have even tried to kill the Demons C7 together. Though we failed, it showed comrodership to try.

I spent most of Friday exchanging the same 5 hexes with Demons. Normally Id be playing another game after 2 hours of that. As they sought to cut off my planer I found myself hopelessly out manned. I avoided them jumping into vacated hexes to cut off their supply lines. occasionally id have to fight them to continue this went on for hours till my fellow pilots arrived to help me.  We fought well into the night about 10 hours for 5 hexes!!!!!

(Your hearing this from a GSA pilot who avoided D2 like an ugly girlfriend.)


It is reality that if your in a loan frigate you might meet a superrior force. That happens in fact in military theatre its common place. The key is to have your allies uproot the entrenched enemy. Its not reality to think you can just depend on solo matches to make it through a War.

Which brings me to my final thoughts and theme...people need people to win this. Working together, cooperating not only in game but personally online in chat. And thats the best thing this KCW server is accomplishing.

I hope we all realize that.

Great job Hexx, hats off to you and the folks here at Dynaverse.

Im having the best fun ive had in years. It has all the elements of the so promised campaigns of the SL days. It has some roleplaying, some Warriror code, and some strategy.....Im having a freaking blast.

Where do I send the check... 

Slider

Gunz

[Father Ted]

But, the fleet dispositions were realistic as hell (well aside from all the CWL's), and PvP victories really meant something when you took a piece off the board.

STICK TO THE TOPIC AT HAND.   This has nothing to do with what the thread is meant to address.   Leave OOB out of it, start your own thread if you wish to go over the pros/cons of OOB.

Does anyone atleast agree that jumping people 2v1/3v1 as a best practice means something is inherrently wrong?

It means that some folks are too chicken**** to try a 1v1 in equal ships. I got jumped in a 3v1 the other night and didn't even bother to charge weapons. I just Taco Bell'd because it was a waste of time and I don't give up ships unless it's worth it for my team. I won't mention names, but is a territorial house member that frightening to a PvP house that they need three members to hunt down one<snicker>?

[762_XC]

But, the fleet dispositions were realistic as hell (well aside from all the CWL's), and PvP victories really meant something when you took a piece off the board.

STICK TO THE TOPIC AT HAND.   This has nothing to do with what the thread is meant to address.   Leave OOB out of it, start your own thread if you wish to go over the pros/cons of OOB.

PPPPPTTTTHPHPPTHPPTTTTHHHHHH  

Does anyone atleast agree that jumping people 2v1/3v1 as a best practice means something is inherrently wrong?

Why is it wrong? Because 1v1's are relatively rare?

[FPF-DieHard]

Slider said a lot of good stuff, I'm going to focus on just the below

Ive seen the complaints and i find them selfish to an extent.

Reality is not some loan frigate assaulting enemy space only to be confronted by some Phaser 3 bearing tug.

I think he might be right.   The "complaints" are selfish, I miss the 1v1  duels of the past and Hexx hates flying with wingmen.  we could simply be being selfish in only focssuon on the negatives over the positives oaf the modern rule set.

[FPF-DieHard]

Why is it wrong? Because 1v1's are relatively rare?

It MIGHT be wrong because I think intentionally ganging up on people should not be encouraged.  This is bad for PvP in my opinion, you aren't looking for a fight when you jump people 2v1/3v1, you are looking for a slaughter.

With the current rule set, ganging up on people is the best way to secure hexes.  That is what I feel is wrong with the rule set.

[FPF-DieHard]

It means that some folks are too chicken**** to try a 1v1 in equal ships. I got jumped in a 3v1 the other night and didn't even bother to charge weapons. I just Taco Bell'd because it was a waste of time and I don't give up ships unless it's worth it for my team. I won't mention names, but is a territorial house member that frightening to a PvP house that they need three members to hunt down one<snicker>?

Exactly my point, how can jumping people 2v1/3v1 as a best practice be considered looking for PvP?

[Slider]

There is nothing dishonerable by running someone off a hex using superior force. If you think about it its saves lives on both sides.

BTW Ive asked for 1 v 1 when outgunned, I won and the remaining pilots let me go. Dude thats right out of a movie.....

In another chance encounter we turned and looked the other way as neither of us were looking to fight each other......again cool role playing stuff.

Later that night I was fighting with some of the players i most repect in this game against another group of guys I hold in high esteem. (any Lyran pilot qualifies)  They killed us.....I felt no shame in it...I flet bad for letting my partners down, but there is no shame to losing to people I respect.

Winning requires respect, so does losing.

To quote my friend Ronin...

*steps off soapbox*
*tips hat*

Slider

Gunz

[FPF-DieHard]

There is nothing dishonorable by running someone off a hex using superior force. If you think about it its saves lives on both sides.

Not implying it is dishonorable, I just don't liked the game better before it was the best practice for controlling a hex.

[762_XC]

So what if you get gangbanged? Disengage and work somewhere else for an hour.

[FPF-DieHard]

So what if you get gangbanged? Disengage and work somewhere else for an hour.

 

You might be right, Hexx and I might be making a big deal out of nothing. 

I would like an explanation as to how jumping somebody 2v1/3v1 is even considered PvP

[762_XC]

It's not PvP in the tactical sense. It's a strategic maneuver.

It should be said that the fleet doing the jumping does not always know what they are going to draw.

It should further be said that flying solo on the front lines is an inherently risky process, unless the soloer does not mind getting run off.

[Dfly]

I agree 762

[Lepton]

2 points

1.  PvP was not meaningless on KCW.  One garners VPs or VCs or whatever you want to call them from PvP, so I would hardly consider that meaningless and frankly that's the way most servers have been in recent history.

2.  2v1s and 3v1s are a part of the way the D2 works.  Do I think it is dumb?  Damn right, I do.  This is not how naval/space battles occur.  3 ships don't just stumble upon a lone ship in naval engagements or at least they never should.  This is why I have advocated time and time again for some sort of either PvP only campaign, or advocated some sort mandatory fleeting rules/lots of AI in missions to give battles a sense of a large scale engagement, not some border skirmish.  This is war, right??

And I'll ask a question.  Is KCW over?  Has KBF quit?  Didn't see those guys on the server today.

And looking specifically to jump someone with a superior force i.e. 3v1 or 2v1 is not PvP.  It's, well, strategic bullying and I don't like it.

[Julin Eurthyr]

I don't know if this is the SFC we all remember, or if there's been a general evolution to an eve-crack type game.

Consider the following changes:

EEK missions: FFs / DDs are drawing CA (at 140%+ BPV of the initiating ship's strength) and BCHs up get extra AI to destroy.
Disenagement Rule:  When we slipped into "trench warfare" mode, there wasn't much perceived strategic option (at least, not something immediately gratifying like watching the important hex flip your color while online that night) besides fighing in one extra-special hex.  The problem was when the poor droner / Mirak players in their hex-flip-o'matic DDs were jumped by CAs / BCHs / DNs.
OOB: Made certain ships important.  So important that their loss was irreplacable, no matter what the shipyard might have said.

Now, what is the fix for each problem.
EEK missions:  Since no extra AI is generated due to player-count, then get a wing  2 players can handle that toughened AI.
Disengagement rule: Droners forced to fight big ships were encouraged to get a wing so that their 2 droners approximated the BPV of the CA / DNs attempting to bounce them from the daily ultra-special hex.
OOB: Once the hit of "we lost our only DN" was felt a few times, DNs / other specialty ships were preety-much ordered to fly with a wing (sacrificial chicken perhaps?) to protect the "heavy iron".

3 design choices / rules, 1 common answer.

And now we wonder why there's no one-on-one action.

What was that famous quote... "Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat the mistakes of the past"...

[Slider]

Ive been getting pleanty of 1 v 1 along with 2 v 2s and 3v3s.

When a 2 v 1 occiurs I offer the soloist the chance to fight 1 v 1 ......not a rule but a wrinkle to just being run off. Its up to them based on their ability to by ships. So Far ive offered 3 times and got 3 one on ones.


Gunz

[762_XC]

Here's an idea - how bout a variation on "The Slot"?

Instead of limiting what size ships can be flown, why not designate a region of space where pilots can only fly solo. Throw some VC's in there for good measure.

If a player accidentally drafts an ally along with an enemy, the enemy can decide which one has to disengage.

[Bonk]

"The Slot" is good, single ships no heavy metal. 

[Bonk]

Hehehe, thought you'd like that t00l...    I won't argue with ya, its clear we have differing views on this and have been over it a thousand times.

DNs vs DDs ≠ fun PvP.

I think our views differ on this because you're usually in the DN and I'm usually in the DD. 

edit: OK, I can't resist... the Mirak arguement just does not hold water on a server like KCW now does it?

Bonk, you have DN versus DD before the disengaemnet rule.   You will ALWAYS have 1v1 disparities (unless you resort to the KCW communist setup). 

I want this discussion to focus on Hexx's Deep thought (nobody flies solo, jumping people with 2v1 - 3v1 is a best practices).

Difference being that in the past you could not be followed around by a superior force being banned from hex after hex until you are relegated to running hex flipping missions behind the lines and it is just salt in the wounds when there are VPs associated with it, and the insult is compounded by any kind of OoB which should just not happen. (i.e OoB is a good thing which should not be fouled by the disengagment rule)

[762_XC]

I thinking no DREADS, but BCH's ok. Reason being BCH's are balanced to fight it out 1v1, whereas dreads are not.

[Bonk]

I thinking no DREADS, but BCH's ok. Reason being BCH's are balanced to fight it out 1v1, whereas dreads are not.

OK Mr Overlord/Overseer...    That works for me... 2 DDs winging have a good chance against a BCH.  edit: wait, whoops, that doesn't jibe with  your 1vs1 proposal... Duh!