Topic: Questions on small-ship draws

[Julin Eurthyr]

After today's operations in a F5L, with my previous experiences, I'm starting to wonder what we've done...

Today, my F5L was drawing FD7s, D7s, and other asst. heavy / new heavy cruisers.  Remember, this is a "Battle Frigate"-sized ship pulling CAs...  If not for Type IV drones and paper-thin nebula-shields, I'd be dead right about now...

Conversations with my housemates indicates that this is not an unusual phenomenon this server.

Meanwhile, on AOTK II IIRC, my I-FF (no refits, just 2xPl-F, 4xPh-1 and 15 power) was set against a Lyran BCH!!!

While I haven't heard an F5 going up against a C7, I'm starting to wonder if our new improved mission sets effectively makes the FF-sized ship obsolete (can't complete a mission solo), or is this just a side-effect of the "balance against the extra-strong ISC", of which we're borrowing their interface...

[Bonk]

Which missions? EEK, ED or TG?

[Julin Eurthyr]

Which missions? EEK, ED or TG?

At least EEK, seems to be just about every mission though...

[Gook]

Hell and I tyhought it was just me you'd hard coded the nasties on

I fly little ships most of the time. G2Cs have been pulling 50% to 100% more BPV (as an example) but bigger ships D7K and D5L same size or only around 20-25% larger.

Trying to kill and FWL in a G2C is tricky but is a regular occurence. I have NEVER had an even draw in a ship under 70 BPV.

I thought it was Evil Dave as he muttered something about special codings for Jinn and Hexx

Seriously small ships do seem to have a problem, maybe it is because so many have been R'd out, I dunno merely speculating.

[FPF-Tobin Dax]

it seems to be every mission. My F5-L has been pulling almost all D7-Cs and Ls. An odd D-6 for a break.

[Bonk]

This is typical behaviour for EEK missions, shouldn't be for ED or TG missions. Server is set to commodore difficulty.

Lyrkiller complained of this on The Forge. I pulled the EEK missions, then everyone complained the missions were too easy. I increased the difficulty to admiral, still too easy...

Damned if you do, damed if you don't...

* Bonk throws hands in air, goes out for smoke...

[Soreyes]

I dont know what you can do

Last night I spent about 4 hours flying in the nebs with eather a F5L or a FWL

About 90% of those missions were EEK misions. On those missions I was pulling FD7s, D7Ls or D7ks
The other 10% were TG missions where I would usualy draw D5C and a F5 Vs Me and a E4 or F5 AI help

[Gook]

Bonk difference on this one is we HAVE to use small ships in nebs and that affects landgrabbers more than Pvp houses, sothere is an argument to tone it down.

[KBF-Kurok]

get a wing. not trying to be an A$$ here but that is about all you can do with out pulling the missions

[Bonk]

Bonk difference on this one is we HAVE to use small ships in nebs and that affects landgrabbers more than Pvp houses, sothere is an argument to tone it down.

Ya, I just noticed that in the rules... the EEK missions might have to go. 

[Riskyllama]

could we reduce the number of EEKs so that we can have the EEKs for pvp ai free drafting?

[Julin Eurthyr]

Here's the thing, from my viewpoint:

EEK missions are great for the PvP crowd (AI stripping), and should be kept this time because of the PvP focus on the server.

Being that EEK missions have (for some reason) typically overbeared the ED and TG missions, this does pose a problem for the small-ship crowd.

Don't the EEK missions draft based on ship class?  Usually the FFs / DDs tend to wind up in the "freighter" category now, and I'm wondering if that could be a bit of the problem...

[FPF-DieHard]

Bonk difference on this one is we HAVE to use small ships in nebs and that affects landgrabbers more than Pvp houses, sothere is an argument to tone it down.

Ya, I just noticed that in the rules... the EEK missions might have to go. 

Or that rule needs to change.

[Gook]

I don't think it is limited to EEK missions. As I said above I have bnever had an even draw in a ship under 70 BPV. The last daw I had last night (gmt) before the server went down was an E4CR v D5K no chance at all.

As for getting a wingman that rather defeats the object of having the sooped up AI in the first place and the situation adversely affects the solo player. As for not "pulling" missions as it affects PvPers, think of the effect on people who want varied play.

[FPF-DieHard]

I don't think it is limited to EEK missions. As I said above I have bnever had an even draw in a ship under 70 BPV. The last daw I had last night (gmt) before the server went down was an E4CR v D5K no chance at all.

As for getting a wingman that rather defeats the object of having the sooped up AI in the first place and the situation adversely affects the solo player. As for not "pulling" missions as it affects PvPers, think of the effect on people who want varied play.

You have a very valid arguemnet for pulling the EEK missions though I disagree about every side not being equally screwed.

If Hexx says yes, they will be pulled.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

You have a very valid arguemnet for pulling the EEK missions though I disagree about every side not being equally screwed.

I think who gets screwed most is not a side, but the player who is on at times different from the other members of his House and can't find a wingman.

[Slider]

Instead of scrapping the missions just raise the Nebula limits for ships to Light Cruisers (.67) or even heavies.

A D5L can deal with most AI in those missions.  I think the missions are more challenging  now that what I remember it being.

[KBF-Kurok]

I do tend
 to agree with you guys on this im just thinking that if they are pulled there goes a big part of the fun for alot of people. I hope this can be fixed to the satisfaction of all.

[Hexx]

Hexx says No.

Well actually Hexx will use some of his insanely limted time signing on and flying small ships
into nebulas. If he wins, he'll post screenshots and laugh at everyone who's posted here.
If he loses, then obviously the mission draw is incorrect (and likely bugged as well)
and he'll do something cool to solve any issues.

Won't be until this afternoon though. Do laundry or something until then.

[Bonk]

I like your relaxed attitude dude. 

I vote for increasing the movment cost rule to 2/3, it preserves the feel of it and should rectify the situation with minimal adjustments. (pulling too many missions on the flatfile without editing the missionlist in the db [a pain] can cause issues)

* Bonk sniffs shirt... hmmm... laundry... there's an idea... 

[K'Hexx]

I think the whole reason for the nebula rule was to preserve areas of the map for the smaller ships.  You allow the D5L in and all of a sudden you have a ship which is used on the front lines now in non-nebula hexes.  This totally defeats the purpose.

I vote no changes for ships allowed in nebulas, fix the ai draw.  If  you allow the D5s in, you  might as well get rid of about 90% of the shiplist.

I know its a shame that the EEK missions don't play friendly with the ED and TG mishions, but at least the PvP houses have the option to go to gamespy to have an AI free match, when grabbing territory in nebulas, no one has a gamespy option.

[Bonk]

I vote no changes for ships allowed in nebulas, fix the ai draw.

AI draw cannot reliably be fixed with server gf settings, it would require pulling the missions.

Though it is possible that modifying the MinFuzzAIBPV, MaxFuzzAIBPV, ChanceForTwoShips, ChanceForThreeShips in MetaMap.gf might have the desired effect, but a script can override these settings as far as I know and I suspect that they only apply to server AI, not mission AI.

If  you allow the D5s in, you  might as well get rid of about 90% of the shiplist.

I think that's a bit extreme.

I know its a shame that the EEK missions don't play friendly with the ED and TG mishions...

Since we cannot obtain the source for the EEK missions, but can for the ED and TG missions, theoreticaly we could recompile the ED and TG missions with an fWait parameter that is inline with EEK mission specs, so that they all have an equal chance to come up.

... but at least the PvP houses have the option to go to gamespy to have an AI free match, when grabbing territory in nebulas, no one has a gamespy option.

Good point.

[Slider]

Then as someone told me adapt and play on.

Ive flown Nebs both alone and with a team mate AI and won the matches., its hard but not imposible. Much easier with a wing.

Nebulas are just a small part of the map. Remove the Missions and the non nebula hexes suddenly become wide open to frigate attack flippers, which too changes the tone of the server.

Again I dont see why pull missions from the entire server for the sake of a few nebula hexes.

[762_XC]

If you let D5L's in, you might as well trash the concept. D5L has 90% of the firepower of anything else generally available.

I think the whole point of making it frigs only is that it's SUPPOSED to be hard.

[Julin Eurthyr]

As the concept of the nebulas are to force use of weaker and not-commonly used vessels, I'll go on record stating that if the nebula rules need to be adjusted and a larger ship needs to be added, I'd vote that the D6-series (only D6, D6B and D6K are on-server) be the only ship-grade added.  Considering that the "heaviest" D6 carries what, 3xPh-1, no wing phasers, and FA-only arc disruptors, I see the concept of the nebulas (nothing horrendously overpowering) being kept while allowing a heavier ship that can survive the draws in.

Meanwhile, I'll ask those who are much more familiar with the server kit's draw system and the current mission construction to check as to why this would be happening...

[Hexx]

After a staggering 2 missions flown (both EEK)

E4C+E4B with AI G2C +F5B helper drew D6,F5B,G2C
Result all three enemies destroyed, no friendly losses

E4c E4C E4B , no AI help Drew 1 (yes ONE) F5L ,
F5L destroyed, no friendly losses

I will try a few more tonight, but I'm not seeing the problem.

[FPF-DieHard]

After a staggering 2 missions flown (both EEK)

E4C+E4B with AI G2C +F5B helper drew D6,F5B,G2C
Result all three enemies destroyed, no friendly losses

E4c E4C E4B , no AI help Drew 1 (yes ONE) F5L ,
F5L destroyed, no friendly losses

I will try a few more tonight, but I'm not seeing the problem.

Anyone else shocked that Hexx beat the AI?

[FPF-Jem]

I ment to chime in a lot sooner but forgot 

Anyway, a redeeming feature of the EEK missions is that they don't increase the AI if you're flying more than one ship while the other missions do. Of course EEK missions with multiple ships on both sides also tend to always draw at least one cruiser AI even if your ship is a frigate so it kind of balances out.

Here's a possiblity, since we're already allowing 3 FF fleets why not allow 2 DD fleets so long as only one is a F6 or FWL?

[Hexx]

After a staggering 2 missions flown (both EEK)

E4C+E4B with AI G2C +F5B helper drew D6,F5B,G2C
Result all three enemies destroyed, no friendly losses

E4c E4C E4B , no AI help Drew 1 (yes ONE) F5L ,
F5L destroyed, no friendly losses

I will try a few more tonight, but I'm not seeing the problem.

Anyone else shocked that Hexx beat the AI?

Actually my Ai killed them.. I was making sure no one sneaked up behind us..

[Dfly]

I flew several mission in Nebulas earlier this server.  Never lost a ship.  Perhaps because I used the 3 ship rule it made all the difference.  When combining 3 small ships, you can do quite a bit of damage to the biggest you face just in the first pass, and still have all 3 ships.

If any ship is to be suggested to be allowed into the nebs as slightly larger ship, I would suggest then the F6 be allowed. 

btw, I did try some with FWL and did fine although it was very tough.

[Gook]

Try flying the small ship for several hours.

Now beating a FWL in a an E3/4 may be a stimulating exercise once, but having the equivilent every few games is just tedious. For example the last draw I had when flying my E4CR was a D5K, no I didn't win I wasn't in a neb and paper thin shields against a Crusier are pretty useless. You can't even sabre dance effectively because your Dizzies are range 10 or so and he has for type 3 dizzies range 30.

I am not sure what the answer is, but in or out of nebs there is a big penalty in time for small ship Captains, which there should not be. In a Cruiser you can probaly get away with say 4 missions without resupply in small ship you need to do it after every long tedious game,not just for supplies but for repairs.

I take my hat off to those who are able to fight cruisers in 5 minutes win and need no resupply in lowly E4s you are better players than I. But I and many others cannot reach those halcyon heights, and as the stated aim of this campaign is fun, it needs to be adressed with something other than barely concealed contempt as it doesn't fit in with one vocal section of the "community".

[Hexx]

Gook Please- I answer ALL questions people throw at me with barely concealed contempt.
I may have misunderstood your original point, I've sent you a PM.

[NuclearWessels]

...

I know its a shame that the EEK missions don't play friendly with the ED and TG mishions...

Since we cannot obtain the source for the EEK missions, but can for the ED and TG missions, theoreticaly we could recompile the ED and TG missions with an fWait parameter that is inline with EEK mission specs, so that they all have an equal chance to come up
...

<gathers up some very rusty brain cells>

Actually the fWait parameter isn't the key here (tried that way back when), the bigger difference is in the mission drafting specs used to determine if a mission is offered.

The EEK scripts specify to draft ships of any class and any BPV, then throw away any AI drafted and generate their own AI choices.

The older style scripts (Taldren/ED) specify a draft range closer to that of the ship doing the drafting and actually use that drafted AI in mission  (with a few tweaks and exceptions).

Both approaches have their advantages and disadvantages:

The EEK approach is wayyyy better for PvP, in that you can easily draft any human in the hex (friend or foe), regardless of size differences between the drafter and draftee.  The downside is that, since the AI gets replaced with script-selected AI instead of drafted AI, the server admin doesn't have much influence on scaling the opposition - you can pick Admiral/Commodore/Captain, but the secondary server difficulty modifier (e.g. 1.1or 1.15 or whatever) isn't accessible for use by the script.

The EEK approach also makes it way more likely a mission will be offered, since the game engine is just looking for any ship, rather than a restricted BPV/size class range.

I don't know about Tracey's missions, but the ED ones would need substantial rewriting/debugging to adapt to the other approach.  (But you're more than welcome to take a shot at it if you want !)

</scriptobabble>

I'm actually enjoying the mix for the current server, but can't climb into a frig too often outside a nebula.

dave

[Bonk]

No, No, No, you misunderstand me... of course the fWait has nothing to do with AI draws, it only affects the probability that a mission will actually come up as a choice. This is important because the fWait settings that the EEK scripts use make them dominate over other scripts on dynaverse servers. If the fWait parameters were equalised, the AI draws of EEK missions would not be so much as an issue as there would be a better mix of missions.

Nevertheless, your comments are informative and appreciated. 

[762_XC]

That was interesting info nonetheless.

[NuclearWessels]

No, No, No, you misunderstand me... of course the fWait has nothing to do with AI draws, it only affects the probability that a mission will actually come up as a choice. This is important because the fWait settings that the EEK scripts use make them dominate over other scripts on dynaverse servers. If the fWait parameters were equalised, the AI draws of EEK missions would not be so much as an issue as there would be a better mix of missions.

Nevertheless, your comments are informative and appreciated. 

Unfortunately it wasn't a misunderstanding - in earlier experimentation I modified the fWaits, but those were still outweighed by whether or not the game engine can find suitable matches, and the chances of it finding suitable matches (even manufactured ai) increase if you include no drafting restrictions (as per EEK).  If you put optimal fWait values in the ED scripts they'll still only come up a tiny fraction of the time versus the EEK scripts (been there, done that, the difference really was negligible so I put them back to "normal").

dave

[Bonk]

Oooohhhhh! That is very interesting, thank you for relating your experience. Very useful information.

[NuclearWessels]

Oooohhhhh! That is very interesting, thank you for relating your experience. Very useful information.

Actually - we need to brainstorm at some point.

I've been trying to think of ways to provide [albeit limited] sql support for a flatfile server - i.e. having the missions contact a sql server to get extra information (e.g. difficulty settings, current campaign date, etc).  But I'll pick your brain on that after KCW 

dave

[Gook]

This maybe of interest to Dave and Bonk. I have been playing with a 3 ship G2C fleet and E4B fleet and mixtures of the two over the last couple of days. All the mission matching was fine whether EEK, ED or TG in origin. The fleets would either pull 3 other small ships with the correct BPV variance or one big ship such as a D7L or the like. No missions were more than 30% + BPV (estimated) for the AI which is within expectations. None of the horrible mission mismatching with a single small hull. I don't know why but maybe Bonk or ED can use that info. TIA.

[Dfly]

I will second Gook's comments.  I flew several mission with 3 small frigs in nebula hexes, and a few missions in regular hexes.  I did not lose any of my ships in any of them and they were proportional to the AI I drew as to compared to when I flew my FWL.

[NuclearWessels]

Thx guys - that is useful to know!

dave