Topic: FINAL KCW RULES AS OF 23/01/06!!!!!

[K'Hexx]

I'll testify that THERE WAS ABSOLUTELY NO  ROTTING FUR.


Dfly states in his above post:

Because House of Demons is losing key hexes to my "allies" when there is no possible way for the enemy to get there and take them.

ROTFLMAO!  "no possible way for the enemy to get there"  You Sir, underestimate the creativity of your foes.

Here is a look at that section of the map at one point of our Operation



I think this shows indisputably that there was no "rotting fur" and that Dfly joined Josh in placing his foot in his mouth.


I was involved in flippeing those hexes personally, I did it when players from your own house were online.   I left them at a low DV because I wanted another house to take them that I saw as less of a threat because those hexes were in a map position I could not defend with my own houses map position and poor player turnout.  It is called STRATEGY.  I an not "allied" to the House of Demons on the map.  I am an enemy.  I took the hexes. THERE WAS NO ROTTING FUR.  I simply used my brain to devise a strategy to achieve what mindless PvP battling on the front with inferior numbers could not do.  Why not consider that your enemy's might have been clever rather than your allies dishonorable.  I would think that by this time the obvious response would have been "Chuut you Bastard!" rather than any accusations about the honor of others.


ACCUSATIONS LIKE THIS AGAINST HONORABLE PLAYERS IS DISGUSTING.  If you look at the membership of House Kinshaya you will see some of the players most reknown for honor in their ranks.  Use your common sense  and not your emotions on these things.  If you look at their player list it should be a no brainer that they did not "rot fur".  I expected better from the House of Demons, I am disappointed at this behavior.
I did the same thing to KBF holdings earlier in the server, deepstriking much further  and I tip my hat to them for having the sense not to make any such public accusations.

I suggest Dfly on behalf of the House of Demons issue a public apology to House Kinshaya for his implied "rotting fur" accusation.

Things like this BS make me consider leaving the game.  I don't need to be playing a game where such accusations are made.  I can understand temporary frustration and forgive an emotional response provided an apology is issued, and hope that a lesson is learned.  I have high regard of Dfly and the pilots in his house so I reasonably certain that the apology will be made and do not wish my statements to be taken as an accusation against their honor, but rather as an expression of my intense dislike of making such implications without knowledge of the facts.  This could have been handled better by PMs to the house leaders of our side asking if we had been involved in taking those hexes rahter than a public statement that questioned the honor of House Kinshaya and its pilots.

P.S.  only 5 of the 6 were flipped by me, the sixth (32, 7) was already neutral and I believe it had never been taken by any house since the server start.  If you have any screenshots depicting otherwise please post them, but I do know it was neutral at the time of my flipping the others.

[K'Hexx]

DFly, the rotting fur rules are about enemies doing this. AFAIK, there has never been a rule preventing allies from doing this. It's how points of supply in allied territory are usually gained. However, given your description of what appears to have happened, it is excessive and should be stopped immediately.

Actually, Josh, check the rules.
Copied and pasted from them:
1) You MAY NOT Rot Fur at any time. If you do, your account will be banned. This
     INCLUDES losing missions on allied territory.
Proof of said accusations should be presented, tho, before pointing fingers...

+1 for you LK for once again providing a good example of how things should be done.   

[Dfly]

Well thanks for the negative Karma, but I guess you figure I deserve it.  I had a pilot report to me they saw ISC pilots coming out of those hexes with those hexes suddenly being ISC.  Did the information I had at the time show that Rotting Fur had happened? Yes.  Did I proceed wrong? Yes. 

I should have tried to get a hold of the ISC guys and discuss it with them first.  MY BAD, but I am only human and it is my FIRST EVER try at leading a group for Dyna.  If all pilots got shot down for trying, there would be no one left. 

I however do appologize sincerely to the ISC house for anything I said or may have been taken as improper.  I hear what you said Chutt, but really do not like the way you said it.  I however wont give a neg for it.

[K'Hexx]

Well thanks for the negative Karma, but I guess you figure I deserve it.

Yes I do think you deserved it, but I'm sure you will do something to deserve a positive soon enugh to make p for it.

  I had a pilot report to me they saw ISC pilots coming out of those hexes with those hexes suddenly being ISC.  Did the information I had at the time show that Rotting Fur had happened? Yes. 

players misinterprete what they think they see all the time, I'm guilty of this myself from time to time.  Information can be false thats why you try and gather proof as an RM.  Your information suggested that it might have happened, not that it did.

Did I proceed wrong? Yes I should have tried to get a hold of the ISC guys and discuss it with them first.  MY BAD, but I am only human and it is my FIRST EVER try at leading a group for Dyna.  If all pilots got shot down for trying, there would be no one left. 

.

 Agreed, but as long as it was a learning experience it can be a good thing in the long term

I however do appologize sincerely to the ISC house for anything I said or may have been taken as improper

Thats all I asked

I hear what you said Chutt, but really do not like the way you said it.  I however wont give a neg for it.

I honestly did not like to have to say it at all Dfly, but it had to be said.  I figure it was better coming from someone who held you in high regard, than from someone who didn't.  Sometime it is a friends role to correct a freind when they do something wrong, I hope you take this as such a situation but if you no longer wish to consider me a friend thats your call.

You are a fine pilot and of good character, Like I posted above I was sure you'd make the right decision, but I just needed to emphasize to you how important it was to do so immediately and put this item to rest.  The strains of RMing I'm well aware of so if I pushed you a little hard I'm sorry but it is something I felt that must be done, it was done without malice of any sort hower.

[C-Los]

My Thanks Chuut Sir.... for straightening the above out !

The 1AF hasn't been on much lately due to a couple of members being sick as well as myself, plus I thought the server had ended last weekend. My Bad ! For not reading the forum more completely.

As to the above.... Myself and other fleet members took those hexes along with some Klingon ones that are sneaky friend had decided to flip Blue and we weren't about to leave them in enemy hands.

1AF would under know circumstances Rot Fur or break any server rules... FYI

Thanks again Chuut...  <S>

[Father Ted]

I'm just glancing at our roster for KCW. All veteran players. Collectively, I'd guesstimate we have about 60 years worth of experience on the D2. We all know what Rotting Fur is, and we don't do it. The entire reason for servers is to have fun playing a game we all love. If you can't win the server because of numbers, or the other side out-thought you, then c'est la guerre. But don't go blaming your misfortunes on us. We saw enemy space that was vulnerable and took advantage of it, just like you would.

I'm just saying, before you start hurling "All Feds cheat!" etc., etc., ad nauseum, look at our roster and tell me who was rotting fur? I know it wasn't the 1AF, and Thrain, Hooch, Julin and Patterson would rather outthink you. The rest, those who actually played, know the rules and abide by them. We win or lose depending on the hand dealt us, not by cheating.

[Mutilator]

I am not one to usually fan the fires,  however would like an explanation of how these six hexes went from Red Klink to the ISC Klink.  I do not see any way for enemy forces to get to these neb hexes, deep strike not likely as this area is at least 13 to 14 hexes away from nearest enemy space.

I take exception that Dfly is being painted in a negative light for calling people out on fair and honourable play, he is the House leader executing the wishes of his membership. Hexes in the north are certainly understandable after Chuuts explanation, however at the time we did see a lot of hexes in the south turn ISC purple and general feeling was "great there they go again." Dfly also posted on our boards that this was wrong and even if it appears to have happened no members of the House of Demon was to do the same thing, as things do not always appear as they do. With that said he still did raise the issue as requested. 

Only way for what happened from our point of view was that pilots lost missions in these hexes and not just one or two. If this seems a little behind the times I have been busy with RL stuff and only just came across this.

For Dfly you did exactly what your membership asked you to do. You lead our house with honour Sir. (plus Karma for you ++)

This maps below shows Demons tactics from Jan 24 (top) and the end map (bottom). I only request an explanation as I do not understand how this happened otherwise.

[KBFLordKrueg]

It has already been confirmed that Chutt the deep-striking bastage flipped those hexes you question, Mutt. I too, questioned it, even fired off a PM to Julin, then read our House forums and saw the report from one of our pilots on what had happened, and then had to send another PM apologizing for my intital outburst.
And, remember Chutt also posted screenshots showing the former Lyran hexes in the NE as Fed, then they also got flipped ISC.
So, I doubt very much anyone was "rotting fur" to flip allied hexes.

And, considering there is no proof of wrongdoing, and the server's now over anyway, I think we all need to just let it go and get over it.
Perhaps, if we'd of had more pilots on more often, the Deepstrikes could have been prevented, or at least taken care of rather than another House having to retake the hexes.

Stuff like this just creates animosity among our already small community, further convicing players to play something else rather than keep the game we all love to play alive. 

[ShadowLord]

Just gave out for first Karma ever to LK for that post -- speaks well of his wisdom --

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Here you go Mutt.  This should clear up any questions about whether I was there or not.

You will note the base at 20, 28 in blue possession as this was our kickoff point, the broken pink line to the bottom of the map where we crossed and the blue black hole and base in the Southeastern section of the map.  We flipped the asteroid hexes neutral which had been controlled by the KBF but which they had  left at 0 or 1 DV on our way to take the base and black hole, our primary objective.  we continued to cause what damage we could until the enemy arrived.  A few enemy red and gold pilots were on during a fair amount of our strike but we were undetected for quite a while, as they were focused on other sections of the map.  By the time we were actually ready to flip the base and blackhole blue they were gone, and only when the pink morning shift had arrived were our plans painted in our color.  We had maxed out the blackhole hex and base hex at this point and I was working the nebulas in a FWC I had bought at the new base, and cut off from my base by pink heavies so decided to work my way back through the nebulas. 

This strike was prior to the Northeast run, and made me relize the futility of running up high DVs on the hexes for that one, as we couldn't hold anything we took, but made me aware that we could influence which foe had possession of them, so we tried to deny possession to those houses with the larger numbers potentials and those who had the greater PvP VC totals.



I don't think anyone has previously deepstruck so far in a freighter, but all that cargo space full of beer makes the job more pleasant.  Even so we had run out by the time Khemarra and I got there, and were disappointed that the KBF had left no beer in the starbase fridge, only bloodwine. 

It was a Hydran pilot who taught me how fun deepstriking could be, and it was KBF pilots and the legend of a cetain Kzin who taught me how to do it for greatest effect.  Hats off to Freedom, Sockfoot, Khemaraa, Mazeppa and the legend of Fantric for being good instructors whether they intended to be or not.

P.S.  One big difference on the D2 as oppossed to GSA ladder leagues is that here we all tend to be allied to each other on one server or another, so we get to know the character of each other.  This allows us to have fewer questions about the honor of the pilots we are opposed to as those without honor have likely been already revealed and unmasked for what they were and chased off by the pilots who practice fairplay.  In Dyna play if someone practices any dishonorable behavior they can depend on being smacked down by the members of there own side and exposed for their improper behavior, and if opposing pilots have questions all they need do is contact the RMs for resolution of the matter.  The RMs can discuss the issue in private with their counterpart on the other side and determine what has happened to the best of their knowledge and ability.  This works much better than public accusations or behind the scenes conspiracy theory.

[KBFLordKrueg]

This strike was prior to the Northeast run, and made me relize the futility of running up high DVs on the hexes for that one, as we couldn't hold anything we took, but made me aware that we could influence which foe had possession of them, so we tried to deny possession to those houses with the larger numbers potentials and those who had the greater PvP VC totals.

And, so you took them from us...why...? 

[Mutilator]

Thanks for all the clarifications Chuut. Apologies to anyone that may have been offended.

Our, well at least my perception from that corner was "dirty furr" or whatever you call it had happened. At any rate your tactic certainly kept us keeping more of an eye on our ISC allies at times and probably prevented us working more closely with them.  Was more probable that we did not play at the same times that they did.

Again my main reason for posting on this in the first place was because of the slant taken against Dfly, our RM. He only was following up on a request by his fleet mates. We raised the flag, as most of our fleet is relatively still new to the dyna ethos and etiquette and felt it unlikely that (now proven otherwise) that those hexes could be taken by enemy deepstrikers.

Again apologies for any hard feelings and I will attempt to get to know those pilots better in the future. As a PVP house the loss of hexes was really not an issue, the perception of us (red.gold.yellow.purple) feuding over space already taken by one of our houses  versus our ability to pull together and turn back the green and blue tide was.



"Our greatest glory is not never falling, but in rising every time we fall."
Confucius

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

No worries Mutt, glad to be able to clarify, and apologies if I sounded harsh to Dfly.  It was his first experience as an RM and he did a helluva job I think, recruiting and motivating his troops.  I just wish he had privately discussed any question he had with his counterparts before posting what he had.  The whole thing could have been resolved in private.

If I overracted a bit, again I apologize, but it was done with the interest of the community at heart.  I know a false accusation can lead to irreparable damage to the community and was wishing to express the seriousness of such an issue rather than any personal attack against Dfly who has my respect.  If the "constructive criticism" was too strongly expressed that is my bad, but it did need to be posted in no uncertain terms IMHO.  Again wasn't my intent to offend, just to address the issue.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

felt it unlikely that (now proven otherwise) that those hexes could be taken by enemy deepstrikers.

After AOTK II you still doubt me? 

the perception of us (red.gold.yellow.purple) feuding over space already taken by one of our houses  versus our ability to pull together and turn back the green and blue tide was.

This was in actuallity a 7 sided server you must remember so only natural that each house was looking out for its own interests as well as that of the faction.  The way the VCs ended up working by mid-server it was apparant that only the PvP houses had a shot at the win and it bacame 2 sided for all purposes.  But before that fact had become clear, each house had to pusue its own goals.  On our side we were disadvantaged by having only 3 houses and a lower overall turnout (at least in my opinion) but had an advantage in that we had only 1 territorial house and that we were able to divide the PvP VCs and the map VCs pretty easily.  We had basically come to an unspoken agreement about this and a major goal of ours was to assure victory for one of our faction, of course we all wanted it to be our particular house.  We needed each other to win, we realized, and so we tried to not conflict with each other's interest.

When early in the server, the KBF made an aggressive, and very smart move to bolster their PvP VCs with a large number of map VCs in the Southeast, I saw this as a major threat.  I think the houses of your faction did as well.  The pink house being a territorial one was no doubt unhappy about their PvP house seizing what they must have felt were their map assests as a territorial house and the closest house to those areas.  With the KBF seizing these hexes and not running them up, I saw an opportunity to wreck havoc on the enemy, both on the map and in the psyche, and did so before those hexes could be brought up in defensive value. 

If the server had been a 2 sided affair, you side would have had no difficultty other than a mild annoyance.  But as it was a 7 sided affair at least at that time it became a competition.  Once the hexes were in pink hands I didn't have to return as their numbers were fewer and  the dominance of PvP VCs had been exposed by the mania of the first round bloodthirsty fighting.  I aslo sympathized with their lower player count and had no wish to demoarlize them by overunning their territory, especailly when I didn't need to get tied down by a war on that front with the KBF positioned to pounce in the Northwest.  Besides, at that point the territorial houses had basically been taken out of the running.

Also by doing this raid as well as the one in the Northeast, I sought to force your pilots off the front a bit as they realized that any valuable assets in their backyard would be targets and might fall to other houses of your faction unless the DVs were run up.  This would be a way to combat your player numbers, and to likely generate less co-operation between your houses.  This effect was achieved for a few days when we were able to make some serious gains on the front due to your division as well as the hard work and nutterish attitude of the KHH and a few others.  It didn't last long however, as these very gains seemed to trigger a realization that your houses needed each other and started working together closer than ever.  When I would log onto teamspeak and see your pilots all gathered on one channel rather than the individual house channels that I had previously seen, it was apparent that the level of co-operation among your faction had grown significntly. 

At this point I reassessed my strategy in view of your increased cooperation and the fact that the PvP VC's had proven to be unbeatable by a territorial house without the numbers of PvP pilots to bolster their VC total in a major way via challange matches. etc.  I knew that my house was basically out of contention and I fell back to the goal of helping our faction sans any aspirations for my house.  So what I did was to call in KHH pilots to reclaim any VC hexes that were taken from my house, doing the grunt work of running them down to neutral then passing the torch to the green to flip them, whenever possible.  After they flipped we would send the KHH back to the PvP front to earn more PvP VCs while we ran up the defensee of the now green VC  hexes.

Hope this help explain my strategies and how what seems to appear to be one thing can be something entirely different on the D2 as well as how strategy can be used to get such results playing within the context of the rules in an honorable fashion.

[KBFLordKrueg]

Well planned and executed, sir.
Your assessment of how things went is essentially correct. 

[KHH-MiniMe]

, he is the House leader executing the wishes of his membership.  

I'm sorry but that doesn't make sense......anyone executing the wishes of his membership is a follower not a leader.

[Father Ted]

, he is the House leader executing the wishes of his membership.  

I'm sorry but that doesn't make sense......anyone executing the wishes of his membership is a follower not a leader.

Ever tried running herd on a dozen cats running in different directions? That's what being an RM is all about. I filled in for one brief time on a server, and I'd rather be one of the cats than ever do that again. It's not easy, it's not fun, but it is thankless...

Fortunately, most races have found good ones: LK and Will for the Klinks, Julin for the ISC, and we've been lucky in our draw as we've had Jeff, Bach, Hooch, and now Wanderer. The one thing in common all of them have is a cool head and ability to adapt to the situation. They all adjust to what's happening, and react accordingly.

[Mutilator]

I'm sorry but that doesn't make sense......anyone executing the wishes of his membership is a follower not a leader.

Just like the Klingon high council there is debate and dialog, in the House of Demons many things were debated and discussed over the server, the ultimate decision was the leaders to make. Dfly made and lead this house with nothing but honour and strong dedication to his house.

If a leader makes to many choices not supported by his followers he will quickly learn he has no one left to lead. In democracy our leaders go to their followers every four or five years to see if they still have that support.


"A good leader can't get too far ahead of his followers."
Franklin D. Roosevelt

[KHH-MiniMe]

I'm sorry but that doesn't make sense......anyone executing the wishes of his membership is a follower not a leader.

Just like the Klingon high council there is debate and dialog, in the House of Demons many things were debated and discussed over the server, the ultimate decision was the leaders to make. Dfly made and lead this house with nothing but honour and strong dedication to his house.

If a leader makes to many choices not supported by his followers he will quickly learn he has no one left to lead. In democracy our leaders go to their followers every four or five years to see if they still have that support.


"A good leader can't get too far ahead of his followers."
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Thanks for making my point with the FDR quote...a good leader is also humble

FDR was WAY ahead of the isolationist Congress and scamed help to the Brits in the form of Lend Lease, but he had to do it in a political way....couldnt just shove it up Congress' a$$, he needed their help later. He had Congress pass legislation and share in the credit.....leadership

Let's just say for wackyness that the conspiracy theory was correct......what difference would it of made? Wouldn't the value of a couple of rock hexes be minimal compared to the distraction that it caused?

in my opinion you guys would have been better off with your focus on PvP rather than a couple stupid rock hexes

I'm kinda new to D2 forums and don't know the politics.....is something else at play here? Since the value of those hexes was of no matter to the server results

[Mutilator]

No, I do not think you are missing anything Mini. The rock or neb hexes never really matter as far as we were concerned, we did not even own them we were PVP house and that is where our main focus was. Our issue was it appeared to be something it wasn't and we have issue apologies for that. My reason for posting here was I wanted to show why or how we interpreted it that way and I wanted to stand up and be counted with my house leader. 

As far as Dfly's leadership he did a stellar job and I will gladly sign up to follow his leadership anytime. We had a large amount of first time dyna players in our house and thus a large learning curb among our players. When the "rotten furr" issue came up it was called into question by fleet members wondering what was up with it. We discussed it (Our perception)  Dfly made a post on it in our private forums then he decided to make a post here with the support of his membership.

Chuut suggested in private may have been the better solution for this however as new RM he is entitle to make a few mistakes. The one thing about Dfly that I have learnt quickly playing with and against him is he will not make the same mistake twice.