Topic: Klingon ships ... colors

[OlBuzzard]

I have seen a wide variety of coloration for Klingon ships.   SFB not with standing ..  Is the accepted TMP to pre TNG coloration better done in OD green ... or Metallic Gray ?

(Just thought I'd get a little feed back on this before we texture the BB next week.)

[S33K100]

The real model of the K'T'inga in ST:TMP was painted in various shades of olive drab green and sand. Of course the Enterprise was painted in pearlescent lacquers which allegedly made it look all different shades of purple and green and blue. We saw neither on screen; on the screen the K'T'inga came out in odd shades of silver and even purple in some scenes. I personally prefer the OD green and sand combo as it was clearly the original intention as all subsequent Klink ships have been various shades of green barring the ridiculous peacock that was the Qronos Wah in ST:VI. And if everyone uses grey ships it'll be a very boring sky to look at.

[MajorRacal]

I tend to agree - when i painted my K't'inga model (many moons ago) I started off with a sea grey base then overpainted that with washes of olive/dark olive, dark sand and rust then weathered with some dark grey and silver...  I don't have it any more, but it was my favourite paint job.

[ModelsPlease]

I say as close to the studio filming models as possible.

[GotAFarmYet?]

One reason is though that the colour shift some when they film special effects and they know this. The paint them colours to get the ones they want on film, not actual colours. If you look at the models and compare them to the movie shots you will see Orange for Copper and etc.

So the choice is yours I am starting to go with more as they appear on srceen that actual colours nowadays.

[OlBuzzard]

One reason is though that the colour shift some when they film special effects and they know this. The paint them colours to get the ones they want on film, not actual colours. If you look at the models and compare them to the movie shots you will see Orange for Copper and etc.

So the choice is yours I am starting to go with more as they appear on serene that actual colours nowadays.

soooo   should we go with the battleship gray ..   or OD green for the primary colors...

Better yet...  (since I'm already at work) ... can someone post a few top, bottom and RT side shots of some of the "better" paint jobs out there.  If nothing else it might give me some ideas. 

Sorry to make such a fuss.  Even though I've been a Trek fan since day one ... I've not been as observant with Klingon "detail" as I should have.   I have a pretty good idea where I want to go ( have since we started this) ..   but in all honesty ...  I would feel better knowing we've researched it thoroughly in order to provide the best possible product for everyone.

Any help would be appreciated.

thanks

[ModelsPlease]

TOS/TMP - Grey
TNG - OD Green

Seems a good rule of thumb 

-MP

[OlBuzzard]

how about the detailed stuff ..  hull plating etc .. I know that TOS was smooth ...  TMP an later released models (but still pre TNG) have a lot of detail.

[Centurus]

Why not blue?  :-D

[OlBuzzard]

Why not blue?  :-D

hmmmm

someone better keep him away from those rubber chickens for a while ...   me thinks they have had an adverse affect .... WORSE than normal !

[E_Look]

<ducks in from bushes>

Like I mentioned in another thread, how 'bout photon torpedoed K-D7 explosion plasma yellow... oops...

... wrong crowd!

<\ducks back out>

[MajorRacal]

Grey base, and then hit the panels, plates and details with the colours - subtle tones should work.

[OlBuzzard]

BTW..   it should be noted that this discussion is not only for my own benefit ..  but as you can see ... it might be helpful to others as well.

Sooo  

this might be considered as much as an opportunity as much as anything.

thanks

[OlBuzzard]

( dont wanna Hijack the Thread Buzz but you got one hell of an idea here for helping people get past textures block )

Actually this is some of the response I'd hoped to get.  The model we have just done will have a few changes  (from the "mesh" stand point) ..  and will help with the frame to keep it form looking simply like a glorified "D-7".

BUT ...  that said ...  let's face it .. the textures often make the model.  If I come up with something that is just totally off the wall ... then the model is trashed for the most part.

I know that you and MP ..   Kurok ...   Major R ... and a few others have done this much longer than I have.  Much to my displeasure I must admit I dont know as much about the Klingon details to do a model properly.

By opening up such a discussion it will more than likely reveal some of the "historical" data ... ( as it already has).

My request for picts posted kinda goes hand-in-hand with that request.  I'm at work ....   with barely enough time to "pop in ... and out" to see what response is comming through.  In fact I'm at lunch right now ...  soooo we have a little extra time to respond a little better.

I see this as a real opportunity to help everyone who is looking at a Klingon ship design of any sort   ... or era.

All input / illustrations that offers constructive criticism, collaboration, documentation, or "helpful hints" on the subject is welcomed.

thanks

btw....   here is an example of "undefined" graphics ...   you can see the OD green ...   and the hull plating ...  (look under Klingon ..  "D-7")

1.  can you define for certain the era ?  (just by looking at this)
2.  there is little clarity (if any) as to the specfics of the textures

http://www.ditl.org/

(I'm still looking)

[KBF-Kurok]

Here are some in game screen shots of atrahasis and wz c7. i think it will give you some ideas.if you want i can attach the model its self so you can look at the maps them selves.

[OlBuzzard]

hmmm   

looks like a lot of gray with OD Green panels ?

Yeah ..  we might have to get the model.

If anyone comes up with more picts the next few days ...  please post them.  I got on to starship modeler ... still have not found what I'm looking for.

Since my BB is late TMP era ..  I could get buy with shades of Gray  (Light and dark .. ) with perhaps some shades of OD green in the right places (like maybe the tops of the panels).  The main thing is to treat the model with an appropriate sense of fairness to the era.

Personally .. I was glad to see the OD green influence in the color schemes ..  but IMHO the "brighter" shades are just completely out of place for Klingon.  It has been suggested that Kronos 1 (if we have the spelling right) was more of a Gray  with Red panels ..  See the ST movie :  "The Undiscovered Country".

or this site:

http://members.aol.com/IDICPage/TMPKlingon.html

Hmmmm  interesting.

please continue input in this discussion ..  the more we can review it ...   the more we can learn from it.

[T' Kang]

We are in process of completing the base Klingon texture plates for the APR mod-expansion.  For the APR we are using a grey-green combination. The base hull pallete is currently using 32 colors. The color base is similar to the C7 obove. I do not know if this will help you out. A model being animated for a video in Max is one thing, but using DX8 and the SFC3 engine is another story.

1) We found simply that larger plates for textures increase detail and reduce performance on the model in game (SFC3). Visual detail in SFC3 was not perceptable when the model is reduced in size to that of a postage stamp.
2) The greater number of texture plates reduces performance, again without significant in-game visual performance.
3) Different selective palletes on textures increases the load on the processor-vid from 5%-15% and slows frame rate.
4) Over 8-bit textures increases the load on the processor-vid from 5%-10% and slows frame rate. Additionally, some "lesser" PC's have significant lag added in PvP, and ghosting while trying to load the Over8-bit texture files.

E-Mail or MSN me if I can help.

[OlBuzzard]

You bring up an interesting point ...  the size of the texture plates.

Right now AV is averaging 3 to 5 plates per model.  They are larger plates.  I'm guessing that you are suggesting that before they can be used that they will need to be reduced ?

What size works best.

I know that Nanners SFC-3 GAW mod was very successful.  Some of those models have several plates to them.  However, the physical size  ("x" pix by "Y") ...  I'm not sure what works best.

[KBF-Kapact]

Hmmm i personaly would go with a simple combination of these colours:

Dark Red (as seen on the BoP (Ent, TMP, TNG, ect ect) but use it sparsly say for a few of the armour plates on the bulk of the wings and on the neck possibly some coming around near the forward Photon Launcers

Dark Olive Green for general hull plating, as its helps show the little red in the texture to jump out at you more (a classic scare tactics by klingons "im big and scary and have a Lobster on my Forehead" J/K i like klingons LOL)

Also Dark Grey for Areas such as Disrupters and possibly some of the Other panels on the ship.

For Nacelle Glows the klingons should have never left the wonderful Teal and changed to red.

windows if any are to be shown should have a more orange feel as the insides of ships are normaly red.


the the right proportions are used in the right places of the ship you will have a very Sleek, aggressive Kronos 1 feel with the changing of the times and the klingons moving up into the lost era which would take them into TNG with the Vor'Chas.


if you want i have a wonderful texture that i havent really released yet that holds a very good example of this effect whcih i can send you in MSN.


This could also be helpful to others dont hesitate to contact me my addy is in profile as i think this should be stickied and perhaps another one for each race or even a geneal disscussion for all Races to help everyone who is stuck for ideas of how to do a race.

( dont wanna Hijack the Thread Buzz but you got one hell of an idea here for helping people get past textures block )

That's pretty damned thorough..... I had a D7 model, TOS..... painted it high gloss black. A few coats. That was my "Black Fleet Class"

[T' Kang]

You bring up an interesting point ...  the size of the texture plates.

Right now AV is averaging 3 to 5 plates per model.  They are larger plates.  I'm guessing that you are suggesting that before they can be used that they will need to be reduced ?

What size works best.

I know that Nanners SFC-3 GAW mod was very successful.  Some of those models have several plates to them.  However, the physical size  ("x" pix by "Y") ...  I'm not sure what works best.

Ok... lol This is "sorta" how we are doing it for the mod. For the in-game models I be trying to keep the textures down to 256x256, and the fewer files the better. What works best for "me" is that when I have 4 players in PvP (using dial-up, Celeron 800mhz and PCI 64mb vid card PC's) and they are not having lag hassles with a few shuttles, we did good...lol (This is what I use "professionally" as a beta-tester for another game.)

GAW is a great base. I am using the ship scaling (Alec Theorhaven/NannerSlug) as the base for APR, in addition to many models that were in that mod. Consistency was important for this mod. We were tired of models the size of planets. and the races (Klingons) have the same paint and building materials. etc.

I am using a hyperlinked readme. mhtml for many of the models. This first allows me to try to please some of the people (modelers) happy some of the time. Many modelers have put in great amounts of time to detail their models. As we de-tune some of their work, this was the compromise we reached. It also eliminated the confusion I have on 4 people claiming a model on different sites. Put it all in a neatly organized pile and let someone else sort it out... Our objective is to have the mod-server run. Again, if the model has a "site" and original textures I link it there. If the end-users then will have the option of the alternate textures, etc. while promoting the modeler's site. If there is a real need for a 4k-poly, with fifteen 1024x1024 24-color textures model for that special "screenshot" it will still be there at the modeler's site.

What works? Less is more for performance in-game. As a "modeller" I would run two sets of textures. a 512x512 set compiled as 24-bit, and a 256x256 set with an identical (for all textures) 256-color pallete.

[OlBuzzard]

So, in other words if we released the model with 3 to 5 plates at either 512 or 1024 ( the larger is easier for the old man to deal with )  .. that would be cool.

As for the size of the ship ...  I have been comparing our models with the GAW mod ....  for the same reason that you have pointed out.  My son took the time (nearly a year) in prep for the release.  One of the things he insisted on was properly sizing the models.  It should be noted that the average size of some of the larger models I do may have up 6K  ....( frankly I'll need to check that figure)...

Mean time back to the issue at hand ...

I hope we can continue to review Klingon design and coloring techniques ..  this has, in fact brought me up to speed.

A quick summary, as far as I can tell:

TOS ... pretty much solid Dark Gull Gray

TMP...  Gray with Red panels / gold trim  (seems like there as one with Gray and OD Green panels)

TNG ...  OD Green and Lt Green / OD Green with Sand, Gray and  Red

[GotAFarmYet?]

Why not break with conforming to the masses and make it PINK!!! 

[T' Kang]

So, in other words if we released the model with 3 to 5 plates at either 512 or 1024 ( the larger is easier for the old man to deal with )  .. that would be cool.


A quick summary, as far as I can tell:

TOS ... pretty much solid Dark Gull Gray

TMP...  Gray with Red panels / gold trim  (seems like there as one with Gray and OD Green panels)

TNG ...  OD Green and Lt Green / OD Green with Sand, Gray and  Red

OlBuzzard

You have also missed the Pre-TOS "Enterprise" where the studio model technique-CGI and effects for "filming" are 21st century spec, not 1966 style. The Klingons are a combination of TMP-TNG.

In game: 256x256 is all that the player can really use. For the modeller. The larger 24-bit textures are better for the modeller.

Now for pink... I have textures for the "flaming" Borg using Pink "Lego" tiles.

[OlBuzzard]

So, in other words if we released the model with 3 to 5 plates at either 512 or 1024 ( the larger is easier for the old man to deal with )  .. that would be cool.


A quick summary, as far as I can tell:

TOS ... pretty much solid Dark Gull Gray

TMP...  Gray with Red panels / gold trim  (seems like there as one with Gray and OD Green panels)

TNG ...  OD Green and Lt Green / OD Green with Sand, Gray and  Red

OlBuzzard

You have also missed the Pre-TOS "Enterprise" where the studio model technique-CGI and effects for "filming" are 21st century spec, not 1966 style. The Klingons are a combination of TMP-TNG.

 

I've not seen a lot on those ships ...any chance you have a link for that ?

[T' Kang]

They seem to use similar textures to what was used for TMP-TNG.  I have not been over to the west coast studio since the hurricanes hit me last year. I have not done much consulting for Paramount since Trek-6. Something else to look for is the “Art Director commentaries” in the commercially distributed Star Trek DVD’s as “Extra Features.” After watching a number of these, and listening to why they did things for filming, gave me a baseline to work from. It is interesting to see the “mistakes” become “ST Cannon.”

[OlBuzzard]

Generally I have a pretty good "feel" for the subject..  BUT...  some of it ...  I have to rely upon resources to at extrapilate a reasonable conclusion.

While I am not a "purist" as such ..  I try to treat each design honorably with the era, or concept from that part of Trek.