Topic: Why did Anakin Turn so quickly?

[Dash Jones]

Here's something that didn't make much sense to me in Episode III.

Annakin was partial to listening to the Emperor, true...but when he found out the Emperor was a Sith, he was horrified and shocked.

What's more is when he returned and found Windu standing over the Emperor and having to make a choice, he argued that Windu wasn't making the right choice as a Jedi should.  In that essence Annakin made the right choice, and stopped Windu from killing what appeared to him a downed opponent.

Of course that would be a hard choice, but HE didn't kill Windu, and he even had the point of being able to see Windu choosing a dark sided path.

So, though in a way he caused Windu to lose his defense, the only reason was because he stopped Windu from killing.  At that point, even though Windu died...it was the Emperor who killed Windu...Annakin at that point could have followed up and perhaps tried to bring the Emperor in, or even fled.

Instead he submitted?

In fact he did so completely that he then goes to the temple and leads the charge to kill everyone there and kills the younglings himself?

Wait a second...did I miss something?

Annakin, only seconds prior to that was arguing with Windu about the proper thing a Jedi should do...yes part of it was self interest, but part of it was because it would also be wrong to kill a downed opponent (much like Luke did not succumb to his anger in RotJ and slay Vader because Luke was a Jedi).

What the Heck...why in the World...

In fact, Annakin didn't even try to kill Windu...and he didn't really incapacitate him...but he did make Windu lose an arm and his lightsaber.

In essence, Annakin had TONS of other choices than suddenly turn completely evil in opposition to how he had been acting previously...so what in the world did Annakin change in that split second.

If Annakin had fled, or let the Emperor be captured as he was telling Windu to do, so the Emperor could be tried...the Emperor would still be alive for Annakin to try to get the secrets of life from...

So why didn't Annakin keep to his original plan (as it seemed he intended when he went to Windu, and what he kept arguing with Windu to do when Windu was at the Window...) instead of suddenly just saying...time to kill that idea...and be one with killing innocents?

[AlchemistiD]

Because GL wrote it that way?

Palpatine, or Sideous, is a manipulative bastard.  And young minds can be very malleable when shocked.  Pappatine took that opportunity to level the act on Anakin, who was already walking towards the dark path for a while (The Clone Wars series.).  Palpatine just gave Anakin's mind one last push, telling him he was responsible for Windu's death.  Not to mention having played on Anakin's fears for his wife.

In point of fact, Palpatine's been feeding Anakin's ego since Episode 2.  All of these things could have been factors.

[762_XC]

I totally agree Dash, and I think this was the weakest point of Ep 3.

But consider how Anakin lost his mother in Ep 2, at his frustration at his inablilty to stop it, and of his dreams of losing Padme (the same dreams he had before losting his mother). All of this was motivating him on a very base level, and Palp was holding the keys.

[Commander La'ra]

Ones of the pinnacles of the order giving in to his anger and moving to kill a helpless opponent just when Anakin is having a crisis of faith probably didn't help matters.   As a friend of mine said 'Mace faltered when Anakin most needed him to be the Jedi stud.'

[Hexx]

Although I'll say it's likely just bad writing- it does work (kinda) if you
consider that Anakin doesn't really want to become a Jedi.
He thinks he wants to be a Jedi- but he doesn't want to lose Padme etc,
IIRC he actually says two things-
1) It's not right (being against the Jedi code etc)
2) I need him- and I think this is the more important one.

Anakin is initially far more interested is keeping Pal around because he's convinced that only
the Emperor can help him prevent Padme's death, somethin he doesn't believe the Jedi care about.
And given their perceived slights so far, Anakin wouldn't have been thinking the council would
give him access to the Emperor to learn the secrets of the Sith.

[Sirgod]

Does anyone know If the new DVD goes into further development on this question? I know there where supposed to be Extra screens.

Stephen

[Dracho]

Perhaps because Anakin could not have beaten Palpatine at that moment in time, it was necessary for him to yield to him.  The Force could have been as responsible as any of the players.

Also consider than when Luke faced Darth Vader and lost his hand, Vader could still not yet have beaten the Emperor. It was only in a fit of rage at seeing his son about to be destroyed that allowed Vader the strength to destroy Palpatine.  But, that begs the question, did Vader really use the powerful forces of the Dark Side to vanquish the Emperor, and if he did, how was he ultimately saved in the end?

[762_XC]

It was not anger, but pity, and perhaps love.

Consider what Luke represented to what was left of Anakin at that point - a physical manifestation of his love for Padme, about to be destroyed by the same person who manipulated Anakin to the dark side in the first place.

Add the fact that Vader himself destroyed Padme with his own anger (and lived with the agony of that for years) and the last piece clicks into place. Could he really (through inaction) let the same thing happen to Luke?

[AlchemistiD]

Point. 

[el-Karnak]

Palpatine is like those old Mafia bosses. They get the new recruit to commit a murder, so that they can hold that over them forever.  Once Anakin aided and abetted the killing of Mace Windu, he was going down fast. Then Palpy got him to massacre people in the Temple to ensure that his place in the dark side was cemented. What would have heppened if Yoda had defeated Palpy in the Galactic Senate duel?  Anakin would have been put on trial for mulitiple aggravated murders.  That's if he behaved well enough to be put on trial; otherwise, Obiwan and Yoda would have whacked him.

Also, notice that Yoda insisted to Obi-wan that the Sith must be destroyed when they came back to the Jedi Temple after the Jedi Purge.  Even Yoda was not about to contemplate a trial for capture Sith lords. Just go out there and whack them.  Probably because the Jedi order knew from previous conflicts with the Sith that there was no reasoning with them and no room for mercy can be given. So, I think Windu was justified in trying to kill Palpy. Bad boy Anakin got all insubordinate on poor Windu and did not follow the counsel of his elders. Anakin's arrogance that he was a know-it-all helped him succumb to the dark side more than anything else.

[KBF-Kapact]

Does anyone know If the new DVD goes into further development on this question? I know there where supposed to be Extra screens.

Stephen

I've got the DVD, and I've seen the deleted scenes. I didn't notice anything extra on the subject. Interesting to note in the deleted scenes, the rebel alliance was already formning before everything went tango uniform 

[OlBuzzard]

For once Dash we totally agree.


If GL wanted to make the transition believeable .....   all he had to do was to leave young Skywalker in a state of indecisiveness ....  and someone else come up with evidence to result into the arrest of the Chancellor.

If Skywalker were meditating (as Jedi often do ) and suspected that the Chancellor was in danger  ....  and rushed to his side only to catch the near execution of a man he looked up to ..  you could see it:

A sudden, illadvised, knee jerk reaction that would have resulted in the death of a fellow Jedi ...  and then the twisted lies of the Sith to follow turning Skywalker away from his colleagues to the dark side.

BUT ..... with him choosing as he did to turn in the Chancellor...  AND agreeing to OBEY the Jedi request for him to say out of the matter until the deed was done ...

It was absurd for him to run to the side of evil for no apparent reason.

(just my own observations)

[J. Carney]

Here's a good course of action for all who thought the movie lacking- which is probably everyone:

READ THE NOVELIZATION!!!

It's 100% better and does a lot more with the 'seduction' angle of Anikin's fall.


Anikin in the movie reminded me of the big, dumb bulldogdog in the old Warner Brothers cartoons... "George is my Friend... he's SO smart!"... you know, that one. The one that was stupid and mindlessly devoted enough to let the little dog shove him around constantly?

Yeah... that was the movie version of Anikin Skywalker to me: "Ok, George... I'll go to the Dark Side! You're so smart George!" I SWEAR... NATILE PORTMAN HAD A BETTER WRITTEN CHARACTER!!!

In the book, Palpatine skillfully, carefuly gains Ainkin's trust and twists his perceptions with excrutiating deliberateness.

If you aren't satisfied with the movie, read the book.

"If your Sith Lord walked into this office RIGHT NOW and told me that he had the power to end this war, I'd bloody well offer him a brandy and TALK IT OUT WITH HIM!" - Chancelor Palpatine

[Lepton]

The whole set of movies was disappointing.  Not much more to say other than that.  Star Wars, good.  Empire Strikes Back, Dagobah stuff cool, Snowspeeders cool, all else hohum.  Jedi, a waste of time expect for Vader's turn back.  Phantom, a waste.  Clones, a relative waste.  Sith, had to wrap it up and he did.

[Sirgod]

Does anyone know If the new DVD goes into further development on this question? I know there where supposed to be Extra screens.

Stephen

I've got the DVD, and I've seen the deleted scenes. I didn't notice anything extra on the subject. Interesting to note in the deleted scenes, the rebel alliance was already formning before everything went tango uniform 

Thanks for the info there Kapact.

Stephen

[FPF-DieHard]

It was not anger, but pity, and perhaps love.

Wrong!  It was really bad writing.   I iked the movie but come onj, it was rushed.

[762_XC]

I was talking about ROTJ, not AOTC, so RTFA!

[Commander Maxillius]

I was talking about ROTJ, not AOTC, so RTFA!

[Soreyes]

Oh come on now. Every one knows that it's more fun to be EVIL

[FPF-SCM_TraceyG_XC]

Yes, this was the biggest let down of the film. We all knew in advance that Anakin was going to turn to the Darkside, and SW3 was supposed to show us exactly how that was done. Instead, I had the feeling that it was just... "there"... one moment Anakin is a Jedi, the next he becomes a Sith, because thats how it was supposed to happen. There wasn't enough 'psychological' credibility for Anakin's transformation to make it believable and it really needed more.

[OlBuzzard]

Yes, this was the biggest let down of the film. We all knew in advance that Anakin was going to turn to the Darkside, and SW3 was supposed to show us exactly how that was done. Instead, I had the feeling that it was just... "there"... one moment Anakin is a Jedi, the next he becomes a Sith, because thats how it was supposed to happen. There wasn't enough 'psychological' credibility for Anakin's transformation to make it believable and it really needed more.

Bingo ....

that was why I suggested that if Anakin had not know who the Sith was ...   (and the other Jedi discover the truth) ..  sense that his close friend was in danger ..  rush to his side ... only to see a fellow Jedi about to put him death..

AS it has already been pointed out ...   Anakin was concerned about how the Jedi were treating him.

It was, however, kind of rediculous to have ALREADY made a conscious decision to turn against Palpatine, turn him over the the Jedi council ....  ok stop here.

Rational or not ..   at this point  someone took a wrong turn at Albuquerque  ...  or did a REALLY bad job of selling this "transformation" .. 

Now you see him  ( Jedi Knight extradinare ..) ....  now you don't.  Anakin turns to a follower of the "boogie man"

Dont laugh ...  it makes just about as much sense.

[Hexx]

The idea isn't that he just turns, it's that he has had his prophetic dream about Padme
He cares more about Padme than being a Jedi.
He realizes that the Jedi will do nothing to save padme, nor really help him as they believe she is
"returning to the force"
Palapatin has previously suggested that the Sith may be able to defeat death, that Palapatine may be able to save her.
He realizes that
A) the Jedi council isn't going to let him happily talk to a Sith lord
B) Windu is in a postion to "kill" the Emperor

His last line before he attakcs Windu isn't
"I love the chancellor","I love the dark side " or "jedi biatches suxxor"
It's "I need him"

The Sith might be able to helpo him save Padme
The Jedi will not.

It's as easy as that.

Lucas really has no ability to write any kind of scene with actual emotional attachement, but (again) it seems
fairly obvious he's trying to show that Anakin wants Padme more than he wants to be a Jedi.
 

[FPF-SCM_TraceyG_XC]

The idea isn't that he just turns, it's that he has had his prophetic dream about Padme
He cares more about Padme than being a Jedi.
He realizes that the Jedi will do nothing to save padme, nor really help him as they believe she is
"returning to the force"
Palapatin has previously suggested that the Sith may be able to defeat death, that Palapatine may be able to save her.
He realizes that
A) the Jedi council isn't going to let him happily talk to a Sith lord
B) Windu is in a postion to "kill" the Emperor

His last line before he attakcs Windu isn't
"I love the chancellor","I love the dark side " or "jedi biatches suxxor"
It's "I need him"

The Sith might be able to helpo him save Padme
The Jedi will not.

It's as easy as that.

Lucas really has no ability to write any kind of scene with actual emotional attachement, but (again) it seems
fairly obvious he's trying to show that Anakin wants Padme more than he wants to be a Jedi.
 

Yes, this is the reason Lucas gave us for Anakin's transformation, but in my opinion, it is very weak. For a the character of a Jedi knoght (who is portrayed to be a very upstanding ethically motivated member of the community, the elite of what is good) to be swayed so easily simply by becoming willing to sacrifice all to save what can only be described as a selfish and immature emotional reaction to the percived loss of a loved one seems to be just too simple and unbeliavable. For Anakin to behave in the fashion he did, he must be absolutely obssessed with Padme to the point of neuroticism. His actions after his 'tansformation' are not unlike that of a sociopath, yet there is no character development that alludes to this at all, hence the psychological incredibility.

[762_XC]

Actually Tracey I think him losing his mother develops that somewhat. I agree that the transition was weak but if you keep that in mind it helps put it into context.

Consider the parallel - he had the same premonition/dream beforehand. His mother was the only thing dear to him when he lost her, and the same was true with regards to Padme.

[FPF-SCM_TraceyG_XC]

True, there are some plot items that attempt to establish some degree of emotional scarring, perhaps the book (which I havent read but have a copy of) does it better justice. More than likely though, giving realism to the psychology of Anakin was probably considered by Lucas to be too far off the track of what is essentially supposed to be a sci-fi action/drama movie whose market target audience is children as well as adults. Too cerebral for the kiddies.

[Hexx]

. For a the character of a Jedi knoght (who is portrayed to be a very upstanding ethically motivated member of the community, the elite of what is good) to be swayed so easily simply by becoming willing to sacrifice all to save what can only be described as a selfish and immature emotional reaction to the percived loss of a loved one seems to be just too simple and unbeliavable. For Anakin to behave in the fashion he did, he must be absolutely obssessed with Padme to the point of neuroticism. His actions after his 'tansformation' are not unlike that of a sociopath, yet there is no character development that alludes to this at all, hence the psychological incredibility.

An interesting point, but flawed
While it would be true of the stereotypical Jedi knight, Anakin never
demonstrates those qualities.
Anakin always says he wants to be a jedi knight, but he never actually seems to
demonstrate the dedication we've been lead to believe it takes.
Remove the first movie as it was simply so bad -
Clones
- he ignores orders, goes to find his mother
-he then slaughters the Tuskens he finds
- he lets his pride get in teh way and attacks Dooku one on one
- he has to be argued out of having the transport go back for padme
when she's knocked out of it
- after his recuperation he's married (I think-been a while) in secret

Revenge
- he still hasn't told anyone (including his mentor) that he's married/ involved
in a relationship with padme
- he executes Dooku, and doesn't tell anyone
- he complains to padme that he's better than the Jedi, but they still don't give him
what should be his.

At every juncture Anakin chooses Padme or hs pride over the "ethos" of the Jedi.

IMHO that's the reason I personally didn't like teh story as it was shown, never was
an actaul conflict for Anakin.
He chose Padme over the Jedi from the beginning.

[FPF-SCM_TraceyG_XC]

Indeed, all true Hexx! The emotional immaturity of Anakin's character is developed reasonably consistently throughout the 2nd and 3rd films. Prone to fits of anger, impulsive, argumentative, inability to control emotion, all of which is consistent with being a teenger, but does that make him a murderer? Well, in this case, yes it does. The character of Anakin definetely has a black streak in him without Palpatine's manipulations, however, as you said yourself, Anakin WANTS to be a Jedi. The character of Anakin is portrayed as hating the Sith, wanting to destroy them. While his actions and methods may lead to the Darkside, as Lucas suggests, this hate grows as the storyline progresses, but is still always directed against the enemies of the Jedi. To turn and become that which he has been seeking destroy in just one scene is in this way contrary to the character's previous development.

[Lepton]

Just saw it again last night.  The turning seemed incredibly precipitous. And the little back-and-forths between sort-of-nice Anakin and nasty Anakin just seem silly and disjunct.  My perspective at this point is that he was highly unstable mentally, the genesis of which we do not see which is basically Lucas' oversight.  The fact that he was so wonky was largely ignored or permitted as he was the "chosen one".  Here's a problem though.  How do you deal with a padawan that is going wonky?  That doesn't occur in the movies so we have no idea.  Just stop the training?  What if he goes dark-side on you?  Seems a risky proposition all around to train someone in the ways of the Force.  It's all handled badly in the movie and Padame is pathetic.  Where is the woman who led her royal guard back to Naboo to take the palace and seize the Viceroy?  Not here.  "Oh, Anni, just hold me."  Wretch!!!  A mess through and through.

[762_XC]

Tracey hits the nail on the head. He becomes what he hates, and his path to it is not convincing.

[Hexx]

Actually I said (err I think I said)
Anakin SAYS he wants to be a jedi
He wants to be a jedi that is respected as being "the chosen one" he wants to be a jedi that
is allowed to be married to Padme.
He wants to be a jedi that is allowed to do whatever he wants.

At no time is it shown that he wants to be a jedi that is "one" with the force, that
He is never shown as hating the Sith, he (at the beginning) against the Sith because that's
what Jedi are. But put the alleged crimes of the Sith against possibly using that knowledge to save Padme
and it's no contest.

At no point in time during the movies is his concept of what it means to be a Jedi ever in balance with
what we're lead to believe a Jedi is or should be.
At no time during the movies is he ever shown to care more about the Jedi creed than about Padme.

He doesn't become what he hates- he never actually shows a hatred for the Sith during the movies,
He is against the Sith because that's what he understands a Jedi is supposed to be, but he never demonstrates or
suggests any real hatred for them.

The problem is- everyone was lead to believe that Anakin "fell" from being some kind of Jedi hero.
He never actually reached that high point to fall from.

His path is unconvincing because Luca (while a good idea guy) can't write it how it should have been written.
the book is (actually it is) much better- one fo the (very) few Star Wars novels I've liked.
Lucas (remember) is the guy who went back and had Greedo shoot first because he didn't like
the idea of Han shooting someone in cold blood. His ideas for what heros are come out of the 50's movies he watched.
Everything seems to be black or white to the guy, he has no idea how to do the literary shades of grey that
anything realistic actually requires.

[OlBuzzard]

Tracey hits the nail on the head. He becomes what he hates, and his path to it is not convincing.

Again ...  this is where the real rub is at.

It's not that what he has become is so repulsed, ( though it's obvious that it is repulsive ) ... but the manner in which it is developed that is left to be desired.


For him to be come what he hates (regardless of why ..  or what he hopes to achieve by doing so )  You simply do throw away the entire charactor that has been so carefully developed without giving more thought, and planning to the "straw that breaks the camels back".  There must be a more persuasive reason.

Yes I know all about his mother ..  and his bride....  ALL of it.

BUT again ....

for him to consciously choose to name the person who has been sought out by the Jedi ...  he has made more than just a simple "choice".  He already knows the stakes  ...  he knows what will happen.

The sudden waffling back and forth is weak at best ....  and as well as Pademe's once strong willed, eloquent leadership.  She is reduced to a whiny, indecisive, child-like charactor who when faced with death at the end says to Anakin:

"your breaking my heart" ....  (that's the best line Lucas could come up with)

I can see where Anakin (now turned to the dark side) ... would no longer show his compassion for her ...  strangely enough that  makes sense..

BUT the transformation to the "dark side" ...  was weak !  VERY weak !

[Dracho]

Being as Darth Vader eventually redeemed himself, saved his son, and killed the Emperor, I'd submit to you that perhaps the scene wasn't rushed.. perhaps the Emperor's belief that he had fully turned Anakin was rushed.

Obviously, Anakin didn't completely turn and in the struggle with Darth Vader, Anakin eventually won... it just took a really long time..

[762_XC]

I guess he just really hated kids in the meantime?

[Dracho]

I guess he just really hated kids in the meantime?

He wasn't much on Imperial officers either.  In fact, if you think about it, in the movies, Darth Vader killed more imperial commanders than he did rebels!   

[Fedman NCC-3758]

Why did Anakin turn so quickly?

Because this was the last film of the prequels.....

[Sirgod]

Why did Anakin turn so quickly?

Because this was the last film of the prequels.....

Evil for the Winn!!!

Stephen