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Offline FPF-DieHard

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Was Windu really Beating Papatine?
« on: November 02, 2005, 04:00:03 pm »
Was Windu really Beating Papatine or was the Emperor Sandbaing? 

I'm thinking Windu was really wining as this was way to risky of a ploy.   Palpatine is an opportunist, he was trying to turn Anakin but I don't believe he would allow Windu to come so close to killing him on purpose.

I'm arguing this wiht my boss at work, curious as to wht the other geeks think.
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Offline Sirgod

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Re: Was Windu really Beating Papatine?
« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2005, 04:30:20 pm »
I think you having a Boss is enough to make Me Turn into Bugger from the old Revenge Of the nerds.  ;D

Stephen
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Offline Lepton

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Re: Was Windu really Beating Papatine?
« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2005, 04:51:01 pm »
I haven't seen it in a while, but the Emperor is the embodiment of the Dark Side so to speak.  I think he had things under control.  Not a great arguement, but he was also giving Yoda a run for his money, if I remember correctly.
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el-Karnak

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Re: Was Windu really Beating Papatine?
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2005, 05:07:18 pm »
Given George Lucas' referral of Anakin Skywalker being the "Chosen One", I think GL wanted the Windu vs. Palpatine match to be an even one where the deciding factor would be Anakin.

If Anakin chooses to resist temptation and respect his elder's advice and wisdom in stating Palpatine must be destroyed then he helps Windu. Ultimately, it was his son Luke that had to reject Palpatine in the final movie thereby prompting Anakin to do his duty as the "Chosen One" and destry the Sith by killing Palpatine and himself.

But, Anakin decided to take the dark route and help Palpatine thereby aiding and abetting the killing Windu. Followed by committing serial murders in the Jedi Temple, and in the Separtist HQ at Mustafar.  And, Anakin was just getting started . . .

I think the Windu vs. Palpy battle was also the start of the Sith gaining the confidence that they were destined to rule the galaxy. They beat Windu and Yoda in the same week in order to gain control of the galaxy while the Obiwan/Anakin battle was a tactical loss, but a strategic victory.  25 years later,  there is little wonder that  Palpy was pretty smug when he saw Luke try to challenge him in the 6th movie. I mean how could Luke compare to the great Jedi they beat to destroy the Old Republic  in the first place? But, then betrayal is the way of the Sith:  Palpy betrays Dooku by having Anakin kill him, Palpy betrays Anakin when Luke beat Vader by goading the son to kill the father; thereby, inspiring Anakin to betray Palpy by destroying him.  ;D

You could say that the Sith had a capacity for self-destruction which challenges humanity everyday (ie. also a common Battlestar Galactica theme that Cylons have about humans). Or, as Wellington put it during the Napoleonic Wars:

"The only thing I am afraid of is fear. "

"Wise people learn when they can; fools learn when they must."

« Last Edit: November 02, 2005, 05:22:31 pm by el-Karnak »
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Offline Hexx

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Re: Was Windu really Beating Papatine?
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2005, 05:35:23 pm »
....
Have none of you faith in the Dark Side?

The Emperor had things under control, you think a guys that bitchslaps the Jedi Mace
brought with him that hard that fast needs help?

He was  just trying to keep himself interested til Anakin could show up.
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762_XC

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Re: Was Windu really Beating Papatine?
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2005, 08:24:34 pm »
Bah. If he was that good, why did he kill the other 3 jedi first? Having Anakin walk into a 4v1 situation would have been far more dramatic in trying to turn him. Mace pwned him plain and simple.

The real question is, why did Mace bring those 3 patsies with him? :P
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Offline Hexx

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Re: Was Windu really Beating Papatine?
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2005, 09:10:10 pm »
Quote from: 762_XC on November 02, 2005, 08:24:34 pm
Bah. If he was that good, why did he kill the other 3 jedi first? Having Anakin walk into a 4v1 situation would have been far more dramatic in trying to turn him. Mace pwned him plain and simple.

The real question is, why did Mace bring those 3 patsies with him? :P

It's hard to turn someone to the "power" of the darkside if he finds 4 Jedi stomping yer ass..
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Offline Commander La'ra

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Re: Was Windu really Beating Papatine?
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2005, 09:50:55 pm »
Quote from: Hexx on November 02, 2005, 05:35:23 pm
....
Have none of you faith in the Dark Side?

The Emperor had things under control, you think a guys that bitchslaps the Jedi Mace
brought with him that hard that fast needs help?

He was  just trying to keep himself interested til Anakin could show up.

Sorry, this would mean that the Emperor was an idiot.  Smart villians do not place themselves at the business end of Samuel L. Jackson's lightsaber.  Smart villians do not assume that their young potential convert will do precisely what he wants when he wants.  You don't become the nefarious supervillian that Palpatine was by acting stupidly...hence, Mace did in fact beat him.

The true mettle of the Emperor was his ability to adapt rapidly and take advantage of even the slightest oppurtunity to come his way. I don't think he was certain Anakin was going to show up right when he did...I think his plan was to defeat the Jedi and then go to his young potential apprentice for 'protection', painting himself as the persecuted party.
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Offline Darth Sidious

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Re: Was Windu really Beating Papatine?
« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2005, 07:16:31 am »
It all depends.  In the book, it's portrayed more like Mace really beat Palpatine.

In the movie (watched on Tues) it seemed more like Palps 'slackened a bit'.  He probably sensed Anakin coming.

All things considered - Palpatine has one weakness.  He trusts Anakin (well, until the very end of RotJ).  I can also see Palps toying with the Jedi (especially Yoda).  Make the Jedi think they;re winning; then pull out all the stops.

Palps v Yoda illustrates this in the senate arena.  Palpatine cackling away like a madman - he's obviously enjoying the fight, even though it ended in a draw.
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Offline Dash Jones

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Re: Was Windu really Beating Papatine?
« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2005, 06:00:24 pm »
I think Palps had Windu beaten and used Windu to convince Annakin as the final turning point.  I think the Emperor practically knew already what would occur as his weakness...as Luke claims...is his overconfidence.

It's just like in Return of the Jedi, the Emperor has everything planned out...and is CERTAIN it will all turn out as HE has planned.  It's actually Lukes faith in his friends that is the upper hand...including Luke's faith in his father...

Also, in the movie, if you watch it, Palpatine is acting as if he's beaten and dying...however the instant that Annakin makes his choice...he's all fine again...like nothing ever happened.

AND he takes on Yoda by himself and fights Yoda to a draw...and personally...I think Yoda probably was the better swordsman/lightsaberman.
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Offline Hexx

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Re: Was Windu really Beating Papatine?
« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2005, 07:25:54 pm »
I think Mace was possibly the better swordsman... although the Emperor did manage to
cut down 2 jedi before Mace moved, then a third while fighting with Mace..

But overall he was just toying with him until Anakin got around to showing up..
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Offline Commander La'ra

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Re: Was Windu really Beating Papatine?
« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2005, 07:38:20 pm »
Stance on this issue is probably opinion more than anything else.  I choose to believe the Emperor was beaten simply because it makes him, in the end, a smarter and more effective villian.
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762_XC

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Re: Was Windu really Beating Papatine?
« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2005, 09:17:51 pm »
Quote from: Hexx on November 03, 2005, 07:25:54 pm
I think Mace was possibly the better swordsman... although the Emperor did manage to
cut down 2 jedi before Mace moved, then a third while fighting with Mace..

But overall he was just toying with him until Anakin got around to showing up..

Man what was up with that! I mean that first dude (the beady-eyed one) wasn't even looking at Palp when he got pwned. He just gets stabbed and acts all surprised.  ::)
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Offline Hexx

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Re: Was Windu really Beating Papatine?
« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2005, 09:25:22 pm »
Quote from: 762_XC on November 03, 2005, 09:17:51 pm
Quote from: Hexx on November 03, 2005, 07:25:54 pm
I think Mace was possibly the better swordsman... although the Emperor did manage to
cut down 2 jedi before Mace moved, then a third while fighting with Mace..

But overall he was just toying with him until Anakin got around to showing up..

Man what was up with that! I mean that first dude (the beady-eyed one) wasn't even looking at Palp when he got pwned. He just gets stabbed and acts all surprised.  ::)

I think Lucas just probably wanted to avoid any chance of another "Han shot First!"
(which he did..) episode.
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Offline GDA-S'Cipio

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Re: Was Windu really Beating Papatine?
« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2005, 10:04:14 pm »
Quote from: Hexx on November 03, 2005, 09:25:22 pm
I think Lucas just probably wanted to avoid any chance of another "Han shot First!"
(which he did..) episode.

Of course he did.  He was a smuggler about to be taken to his doom.  Shooting first was the point.  I've never understood why this suddenly became a "problem" for Lucas.

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Offline Dash Jones

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Re: Was Windu really Beating Papatine?
« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2005, 10:46:52 pm »
SPOILER FOR DVD DELETED SCENES


Of interest...it appears Yoda was opposed to this course of action when they discussed it prior to this event.  Windu was all for taking on the Emperor but Yoda was thinking it would take them down a pretty dark path.
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Re: Was Windu really Beating Papatine?
« Reply #16 on: November 03, 2005, 11:03:37 pm »
That same dialogue was in the movie, they just moved it to a different scene.
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Offline The_Joker

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Re: Was Windu really Beating Papatine?
« Reply #17 on: November 03, 2005, 11:22:47 pm »
The novel basically states that Windu's true power comes from the fact that unlike any other, he is actually able to walk the line between the light and dark side.  His ferocity in battle and saber style both come from dipping a bit into his own anger.  The difference being that he can reign his anger in, most of the time.  Most of the time being the key here.  Anakin's choice came as much from Mace walking a bit too far down that path and choosing to kill an unarmed opponent.  I don't remember the exact quote, but its something along the line of "a Jedi doesn't hurt when stop will do, doesn't maim when hurt will do, doesn't kill when maim will do" etc... etc....

Mace won. plain and simple.  If not for his own anger, the story stops there.
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Offline Lepton

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Re: Was Windu really Beating Papatine?
« Reply #18 on: November 05, 2005, 05:32:19 pm »
I don't know who approved that text but it is certainly not in keeping with any conception I have of a Jedi.  Accessing dark side is not good.  My opinion on the entire arc of the three prequel movies is that the Jedi had become reduced from becoming this de-facto police squad, too entangled with bureaucracy, too distant from the True Force.  Their inability to forsee Palaptine and the rising dark side is indicative of that.  Most if not all of the Jedi were acting way too aggressive and angry in these movies.  Perhaps this was merely done for dramatic purpose i.e. unemotional jedi are boring, but I chose to see it as indicative of the Jedis' own hand in their downfall.

I think this is consistent with the picture that Lucas paints of the state of democracy in the Republic.
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Offline OlBuzzard

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Re: Was Windu really Beating Papatine?
« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2005, 09:59:34 pm »
Quote from: The_Joker on November 03, 2005, 11:22:47 pm
The novel basically states that Windu's true power comes from the fact that unlike any other, he is actually able to walk the line between the light and dark side.  His ferocity in battle and saber style both come from dipping a bit into his own anger.  The difference being that he can reign his anger in, most of the time.  Most of the time being the key here.  Anakin's choice came as much from Mace walking a bit too far down that path and choosing to kill an unarmed opponent.  I don't remember the exact quote, but its something along the line of "a Jedi doesn't hurt when stop will do, doesn't maim when hurt will do, doesn't kill when maim will do" etc... etc....

Mace won. plain and simple.  If not for his own anger, the story stops there.

Actually ...   of everything that has been written ..  this makes sense.

IMHO it was badly written to begin with ...  especially with Anakin's waffeling back and forth like a child.  At one point in the movie he is becoming a strong Jedi ..  then a whine child ?

AT any rate ..   there is almost a duplicated scene ... one that I spotted as soon as I read this.

At the beginning of the movie ...  what was Palaptines argument for killing Dooku ?   "He is way to powerful to allow to live".  This after Anakin has successfully defeated the former Jedi turned evil .. ( and was very powerful at that) Later Anakin laments over the decision ... and believes this is wrong.

At the defeat of the Emperor  ( and I do believe that he was defeated ) ...  What was the exact statement that Windu makes with Anakin watching on ...  almost the same words ...  if not the EXACT same words as used concerning the death of Dooku.

The real problem for me was Anakin switch hitting back and forth like a yo-yo ..   It would have been waaaay better for him to have not been the one to rat out the Emperor ...  sense the danger ... and walk in on the near death of his "friend" who as it turns out of course is the Sith.  This would have been far more plausible ...  and could easily then pushed Anakin to the Emperor.  After all ...  both the Jedi and Emperor were acting in a "similar" fashion.

oh well ...

sorry to barge in !

just my 2 cents worth !
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Offline ApolloMissions

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Re: Was Windu really Beating Papatine?
« Reply #20 on: January 09, 2006, 07:10:43 pm »
Windu was difinately beating Palpatine.  If Anakin hadn't shown up Mace would have killed Palpatine.
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Offline Greenvalv

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Re: Was Windu really Beating Papatine?
« Reply #21 on: January 09, 2006, 08:06:17 pm »
Quote from: OlBuzzard on November 15, 2005, 09:59:34 pm
AT any rate .. there is almost a duplicated scene ... one that I spotted as soon as I read this.

At the beginning of the movie ... what was Palaptines argument for killing Dooku ? "He is way to powerful to allow to live". This after Anakin has successfully defeated the former Jedi turned evil .. ( and was very powerful at that) Later Anakin laments over the decision ... and believes this is wrong.

At the defeat of the Emperor ( and I do believe that he was defeated ) ... What was the exact statement that Windu makes with Anakin watching on ... almost the same words ... if not the EXACT same words as used concerning the death of Dooku.

The real problem for me was Anakin switch hitting back and forth like a yo-yo .. It would have been waaaay better for him to have not been the one to rat out the Emperor ... sense the danger ... and walk in on the near death of his "friend" who as it turns out of course is the Sith. This would have been far more plausible ... and could easily then pushed Anakin to the Emperor. After all ... both the Jedi and Emperor were acting in a "similar" fashion.
The hippocrite was just covering his tracks, when Obi-Wan asks him so spy on the chancellor, he goes on to say it's against the Jedi code when he is married to Padme which is completely against the jedi code!  I've noticed he just does what's right when there are other jedi around....  :police:
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