Topic: Why open source is crap.

[FMMonty]

OK, I've been asked to look into using osCommerce, as it is cheaper than using Commerce Server from Microsoft.  Commerce Server would add a good £4.5k to our budget, osCommerce is free (I do some IT work on the side these days).

Sounds good you'd think.

Right, we have a win 2003 server with PHP 5, and MySql.  Oddly osCommerce doesn't work with this, even though it claims

Introduction

osCommerce can be installed on any server where a web server with PHP has been installed on and has access to a MySQL database server.

This includes shared servers, dedicated servers, and even locally on the computer you are currently using, using Linux, Unix, BSD, Mac OS X, and Microsoft Windows operating systems.

Great care has been taken to ensure that:


osCommerce runs on all PHP versions from 4.0 to the latest version, while at the same time taking advantage of new PHP features introduced since the PHP 4.1 series and remaining compatible to 4.0+ versions.
osCommerce runs on all PHP enabled web servers, in both module and CGI based installations, on many operating systems
osCommerce runs on most server specific configurations ranging from dedicated servers to shared servers that utilize different PHP configurations such as register_globals and safe_mode restrictions

So far I have spent 6 hours playing with this.  At £100 an hour that is £600, or 13% of the saving, with nothing to show for it.

So I asked the helpful OS community for help, and received a reply saying to look through 15 pages of smug twats saying to look through the search files.  This sodding application is hosted by Derek Smart I swear.

I convinced my school to go with a Moodle portal for E-learning (open source, but not morons), however for business I think I will be very unlikely to even consider open source again.

If you'd like to see how helpful the OSC community are try http://forums.oscommerce.com/index.php?showtopic=178098

[Dracho]

I wonder if this is a common experience, or if this application is particularly rancid?

[Mr_Tricorder]

Not all open source communities are full of @$$holes.  I've found many people to be quite helpful.  This situation does happen with some open source communities, but it definitely does not apply for all open source software.

Official support is definitely an issue of free open source software.  Several Linux distros offer a free version and a non-free version which includes official support.

[MrCue]

I have never had a problem with osCommerce, Had it running on RH, XP & 2k3

[FMMonty]

I have never had a problem with osCommerce, Had it running on RH, XP & 2k3

Were you using apache, IIS6, or what?  Also what version of PHP?

[MrCue]

Apache on RH Apache 2 on XP & 2k3 PHP 4.x on all boxes.

[FMMonty]

Yep, apache works well, however I need to stay with IIS.  I also would rather use PHP5, since PHP4 is more vulnerable.

Seems that I may have to either fire up another server, or not bother with it at all.

Judging by how helpful that community is I think I'll stick with the not bothering at all

[Nemesis]

OK, I've been asked to look into using osCommerce, as it is cheaper than using Commerce Server from Microsoft.  Commerce Server would add a good £4.5k to our budget, osCommerce is free (I do some IT work on the side these days).

Sounds good you'd think.

Right, we have a win 2003 server with PHP 5, and MySql.  Oddly osCommerce doesn't work with this, even though it claims

Oddly enough some of anything is garbage.  Some things are also great for some purposes and lousy for others.  A Lamborghini Diablo may be an excellent sports car but a terrible tractor.  osCommerce may not suit your purposes but apparently 10s of thousands of others find it useful.

Oddly enough you are using PHP and MySql both of which are open source.  Presumably you don't consider them to be garbage.

If osCommerce does not suit your purposes and needs then don't use it.  The cost of finding that out was less than the cost of finding that a commercial system was unsuitable.

however for business I think I will be very unlikely to even consider open source again.

So no business use of PHP or MySql for you then?

So far I have spent 6 hours playing with this.  At £100 an hour that is £600, or 13% of the saving, with nothing to show for it.

What you said to us vs what you said to them is rather in conflict.  Either you were doing it for fun and should not be listing your wages or you were doing it for business purposes and misrepresented that fact to their forum.

I decided to have a go at installing OSC, more for fun than to use it as a production site. I started by checking the stated requirements and support here , and presumed that there would be no problem.

So I asked the helpful OS community for help, and received a reply saying to look through 15 pages of smug twats saying to look through the search files.  This sodding application is hosted by Derek Smart I swear.

Just out of curiosity how many twats have had to be booted from the Dynaverse and Taldren forums before them?  Part of any group is twits.

Since one of their posters said this:

It's not the questions you ask that are the problem - it's your responses when you get an answer.

 

Then maybe you should wonder if perhaps your approach to that community was just incompatible with their way of working on things.  If one of them were to come here they might find our way of handling things equally obnoxious.

Different groups different behaviours, like the Dynaverse VS the Mackie forum exiles.

[Sirgod]

<snikers> welcome Nemesis again, to our version of Mod hell. 

Stephen

[Nemesis]

<snikers> welcome Nemesis again, to our version of Mod hell. 

Stephen

Actually I've been there before.  Long ago I ran a BBS and as the sole Sysop was also responsible for moderation so I knew what I was getting into.  I ran into some people who were just as bad as the worst that were banned from here and dealt with them.  On the other hand here you guys have already prefiltered the worst of the bunch.  So I haven't yet needed to do any actual moderating.  All the glory and none of the hassles. 

As to this particular thread  FMMonty may perhaps have used stronger language than appropriate in his title but otherwise I feel he is just expressing his honest opinion (and perhaps pique) and needs no real moderation, just equally honest replies.   Which I have attempted to provide.

[FMMonty]

Oddly enough some of anything is garbage.  Some things are also great for some purposes and lousy for others.  A Lamborghini Diablo may be an excellent sports car but a terrible tractor.  osCommerce may not suit your purposes but apparently 10s of thousands of others find it useful.

Oddly enough you are using PHP and MySql both of which are open source.  Presumably you don't consider them to be garbage.

If osCommerce does not suit your purposes and needs then don't use it.  The cost of finding that out was less than the cost of finding that a commercial system was unsuitable.

Not really, a commercial system has accurate specifications, and legal recourse if it doesn't do what it says on the tin.

This doesn't apply to OSC, which blatently lies about its compatibility.

however for business I think I will be very unlikely to even consider open source again.

So no business use of PHP or MySql for you then?

Nah, SQL and ASP.

So far I have spent 6 hours playing with this.  At £100 an hour that is £600, or 13% of the saving, with nothing to show for it.

What you said to us vs what you said to them is rather in conflict.  Either you were doing it for fun and should not be listing your wages or you were doing it for business purposes and misrepresented that fact to their forum.

I always work out a time cost, even if I'm not being paid.  If it would take me 100 hours to get to grips with commerce server then I would never even consider using it.

Since Moodle worked so well I suggested that we look into OSC, and was told to give it a go.  It would save the company a lot of money, and look really good for me if it had panned out.

Just out of curiosity how many twats have had to be booted from the Dynaverse and Taldren forums before them?  Part of any group is twits.

Since one of their posters said this:

It's not the questions you ask that are the problem - it's your responses when you get an answer.

 

Then maybe you should wonder if perhaps your approach to that community was just incompatible with their way of working on things.  If one of them were to come here they might find our way of handling things equally obnoxious.

Different groups different behaviours, like the Dynaverse VS the Mackie forum exiles.

If you look at that post you'll see I haven't received an answer.  I carefully searched the forum, mentioned the things I had found and asked if there were any other things.  I personally don't see that as being unreasonable, however it does highlight why so many people avoid open source like the plague.

They can't even answer a simple question like what are the system requirements, and the information is totally contradictory. 

[Lepton]

MySQL 5 incompatibility issue with osCommerce.  If running that, might want to back up to MySQL 4.  I'd also recommend going with PHP 4.  Most open source I work with has not been rewritten for PHP5, unfortunately, as it seems to be relatively new.

http://forums.oscommerce.com/lofiversion/index.php/t176079.html

I also don't see what is contradictory in the documentation.  It clearly says PHP4, not PHP5  Anyone who says otherwise hasn't got a clue.

[FMMonty]

MySQL 5 incompatibility issue with osCommerce.  If running that, might want to back up to MySQL 4.  I'd also recommend going with PHP 4.  Most open source I work with has not been rewritten for PHP5, unfortunately, as it seems to be relatively new.

http://forums.oscommerce.com/lofiversion/index.php/t176079.html

I also don't see what is contradictory in the documentation.  It clearly says PHP4, not PHP5  Anyone who says otherwise hasn't got a clue.

http://www.oscommerce.info/kb/osCommerce/Installation_and_Upgrades/46

[Lepton]

Last Update: 28th April, 2004


osCommerce runs on all PHP versions from 4.0 to the latest version, while at the same time taking advantage of new PHP features introduced since the PHP 4.1 series and remaining compatible to 4.0+ versions.


From php.net

PHP 5.0.0 Released!

[13-Jul-2004] The PHP team is proud to announce the final release of PHP 5!

Some of the key features of PHP 5 include:

    * The Zend Engine II with a new object model and dozens of new features.
    * XML support has been completely redone in PHP 5, all extensions are now focused around the excellent libxml2 library (http://www.xmlsoft.org/).
    * A new SimpleXML extension for easily accessing and manipulating XML as PHP objects. It can also interface with the DOM extension and vice-versa.
    * A brand new built-in SOAP extension for interoperability with Web Services.
    * A new MySQL extension named MySQLi for developers using MySQL 4.1 and later. This new extension includes an object-oriented interface in addition to a traditional interface; as well as support for many of MySQL's new features, such as prepared statements.
    * SQLite has been bundled with PHP. For more information on SQLite, please visit their website.
    * Streams have been greatly improved, including the ability to access low-level socket operations on streams.
    * And lots more...

For changes since Release Candidate 3, please consult the ChangeLog.


PHP 4.3.8 released!

[13-Jul-2004] PHP Development Team would like to announce the immediate availability of PHP 4.3.8. This release is made in response to several security issues that have been discovered since the 4.3.7 release. All users of PHP are strongly encouraged to upgrade to PHP 4.3.8 as soon as possible


So, PHP4 was the latest version of PHP at the time the requirements for osCommerce were last updated.  I have had the same problems.  Wanted to run PHP5 with some of my apps.  Had to back up to PHP 4.3.9.   Now I may be able to go to PHP 4.4 forward.  Comes with the territory. And hey, it's free!!!!

[FMMonty]

So now you see my problem.  I searched through their mess of information (even the link you posted has someone claiming that PHP5 works fine) and was stumped.

All I wanted was a simple statement of the system requirements, however it seems that they don't actually know.

[Lepton]

I think your only solution would be to run it under PHP4.  That's seems to be the only consistent info I see.  I think that if they haven't updated their requirements page then it is unlikely to run correctly under PHP5, as apparently PHP5 was a major release with substantial changes.  If it were really compatible with PHP5, I am sure they would have announced that fact.

There is definitely a documentation problem in the open source community or at least that is my experience, but as I say it's free, so that makes up for it.  At least, for me it does.