Topic: Yet another server rule idea  (Read 10879 times)

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Offline FPF-SCM_TraceyG_XC

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Yet another server rule idea
« on: October 31, 2005, 06:23:30 pm »
Thus far to date, nearly all of the PvP VCs awarded have revolved around the hull classes of the ships flown, with the exception of bounties (although these have played only a small role).

How about instead of using the hull class of the ship being flown, we use a pilot rating. As a server progresses, each pilot will score individual PvP points for victory in battle which accumulate and are used to determine the VCs awarded for the battle. Each pilot begins with 1 pt. The outcome of the battle serves as a modifier to points awarded ie. destroyed = 100%, captured = 200%, forced disengage = 25%, internal damage = 10% (SFB S2.0 Victory Conditions)

Example: Tool wins a PvP match. Since it is the first match of the server, both he and his opponent have 1 PvP point each. He destroys his opponent so he gains 100% of his opponents PvP points. Tool is now worth 2 PvP points, his opponent remains on 1 (since this is the minimum). 1 PvP point is also awarded to his team.

Next battle, WarSears kills Tool. Since Tool was worth 2 PvP points, WarSears earns these points, and is now worth 3 PvP points. Tool's worth drops back to 1 PvP point, and War Sears' team gains 2 PvP points.

The following battle, WarSears destroys another opponent worth 1 PvP point. War Sears is now worth 4 PvP points. Then finally in the next battle, Wae Sears is hunted down by several enemy pilots and forced to disengage. Since he was worth 4 PvP points, 25% of his point tally is awarded to the other side = 1 PvP point and is distributed evenly among the victors. War Sears is now worth 4 - 1 = 3 PvP points.

And so on.

Advantages: Such a system can be used to create a PvP ladder which can be updated as the server progresses (which would be interesting). Players (especially new players) who are not strong in PvP will not disadvantage their side as much. When 2 or 3 'aces' that have high PvP points finally meet in battle, it becomes a bit like a grand final in a baseball series.

Disadvantages: Requires extra book keeping (but can be automated with some work). It sounds complicated.

I submit, however, that added complexity is not sufficient reason alone not to use a new rule or system, unless it is so complex as to be beyond the understanding of the majority of players. In this case, only the RM's really need to know how the system works, all the player needs to know is to report the kill and the RMs and admins will do the calculation (which in my opinion is really only very basic arithmetic, its not like you have to calculate a second order linear differential calculus equation).

Comments, suggestions and criticisms?
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Offline Hexx

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Re: Yet another server rule idea
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2005, 08:08:55 pm »
I propsed somehitng like this for Mirror (or maybe I stole it from you ..)
I like it, but many people were of the opinion (again) that it hurt the new and less skilled PVP
pilots and should be avoided.

Still I'd be all for it if you can sell it..
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Offline Dfly

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Re: Yet another server rule idea
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2005, 09:50:17 pm »
I too like it Tracey, but there would be one snag that I can see.  The timeline of battle.  Which battle happened when would and can change all the values of said players.  Let's say someone who was in battle does not report immediately, but only after a couple more PvP battles, before he logs off.  Those battles will have taken place in a different order from which they were fought.

Perhaps with SQL running and keeping actual battle accounts and time accounts(if possible), this would be no biggie.  Waiting for each battle to be PROPERLY(ie: stardate, ships, pilots, results, and mission time) reported, then going back a day or 2 to put them in the proper order, then calculating the Player points at the actual time of battle may be a bigger headache than most RMs want.

I stongly emphasize that all players should(must) have pen and paper on desktop and keep notes of all PvP that he/she is involved in, the stardate, the ships and pilots, and the total time of mission, reguardless of which server they are flying in. 

Offline KAT Chuut-Ritt

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Re: Yet another server rule idea
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2005, 03:40:30 am »
I don't care for the idea.

You have to consider a pilot who likes to change up the ships they fly.  Imagine a player who racks up a couple of kills in a Command Cruiser in early, then decides he wants to take a light cruiser out for a spin and gets killed by a DN.  Is that light cruiser worth that much in VCs?  The system propossed would deter pilots from flying whatever ships they wanted after a couple of PvP wins because they wouldn't want to risk the extra points in anything less than the best PvP ships available.  Also you need consider multiple accounts.  Pilot A might be good in a romulan ship earning a couple kills, but maybe he sucks at Lyran.  If he has two accounts does killing the Lyran one earn the other side the PvP points he earned as a Romulan?  If so wouldn't this keep him from experimenting and trying to have fun while learning Lyran?

Offline C-Los

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Re: Yet another server rule idea
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2005, 06:24:51 am »
Calculator City....  :o

I'm with Chuut on this one....too much figuring and not enough fun   ;)
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Offline KHH_Mrogue

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Re: Yet another server rule idea
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2005, 09:03:51 am »
Isn't this what bounties are for?  Bounties could be for pilots and ships.  On every server I've been on, pilots have laid traps for both pilots and ships.  Can we change the bounty system?

Offline Father Ted

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Re: Yet another server rule idea
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2005, 09:14:40 am »
Gotta go with Chuut and Carlos. This is an accounting nightmare waiting to happen. It also doesn't take into account the newb factor. Say Hexx kill eight newbies, then gets wasted by Kreug. That's 8 points thrown away!  ;D

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Offline Hexx

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Re: Yet another server rule idea
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2005, 09:45:30 am »
"wasted by Kreug"

I know it's an example, but let's be realistic here  ;D
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Offline Father Ted

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Re: Yet another server rule idea
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2005, 10:03:55 am »
"wasted by Kreug"

I know it's an example, but let's be realistic here  ;D

Excuse me for improper use of the English language. How 'bout this: "..then Kreug puts a cap in his ***!" ;)

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Offline Hexx

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Re: Yet another server rule idea
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2005, 10:13:38 am »
"wasted by Kreug"

I know it's an example, but let's be realistic here  ;D

Excuse me for improper use of the English language. How 'bout this: "..then Kreug puts a cap in his ***!" ;)

It's the respect that I play for..  :P
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Offline Father Ted

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Re: Yet another server rule idea
« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2005, 10:26:39 am »
Plus 1 for having a good sense of humor! ;)

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Offline Riskyllama

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Re: Yet another server rule idea
« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2005, 03:55:35 pm »
my thoughts are a litte late, but...
Advantages: Such a system can be used to create a PvP ladder which can be updated as the server progresses (which would be interesting). Players (especially new players) who are not strong in PvP will not disadvantage their side as much. When 2 or 3 'aces' that have high PvP points finally meet in battle, it becomes a bit like a grand final in a baseball series.

Disadvantages: Requires extra book keeping (but can be automated with some work). It sounds complicated.

Comments, suggestions and criticisms?

This sounds a LOT like the CUGS ladder system...heck it migh even be a way to get some of their pilots over here.

You have to consider a pilot who likes to change up the ships they fly. Imagine a player who racks up a couple of kills in a Command Cruiser in early, then decides he wants to take a light cruiser out for a spin and gets killed by a DN.
true, but it'll make pilots who do begin to excel more valuable targets, no matter what they fly(just as the bounty system does now). They'll have to decide if they need their dinky little DF+ or if they should stick to a NCC, plus if each account IS seperate, that eliminates that other worry of yours.
I too like it Tracey, but there would be one snag that I can see. The timeline of battle.....
Perhaps with SQL running and keeping actual battle accounts and time accounts(if possible), this would be no biggie. Waiting for each battle to be PROPERLY(ie: stardate, ships, pilots, results, and mission time) reported, then going back a day or 2 to put them in the proper order, then calculating the Player points at the actual time of battle may be a bigger headache than most RMs want...
DFly has a good point here...Tracey, Bonk, and the other great minds, are you guys closer to geting the kinks out of SQL?
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Offline FPF-SCM_TraceyG_XC

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Re: Yet another server rule idea
« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2005, 04:39:41 pm »
Thankyou for the feedback, all good points.

It was suggested that this would not work because of newbies, however, this system was designed so that ace pilots and newbies could fly together on a server with PvP VCs. Suppose in the example given that Hexx did kill 8 newbies and was worth 8 PvP VC points. If we assume that Hexx is not a newbie and has reasonable piloting skill (especially if he just had 8 victories in a row), then this measure of his PvP worth may very well be quite realistic. Under such a system, you may find that the really good pilots have 20 or 30 PvP points, so 8 may not be all that much.

Yes, it is an accounting nightmare, and ideally an automated system using SQL would be perfect for it. However, even without SQL, the only people that really need to know the system are the RMs and admins. Players really don't need to do anything at all, other than report the kills (however, accurate reporting would be essential, but this is no different to previous servers anyway).

The criticism about this being like the Bounty system, yes, in fact, this would replace the Bounty system. It can even be thought of as a self regulating bounty system.

In regard to the criticism about an 'ace' wanting to try out different ships and flying a race or ship that they do not excel in, and thus losing their PvP points, yes, this is a valid criticsm. It then needs to be weighed up then, which is better, the system that accomodates for new green pilots in a PvP rich environment or the current system based on hull class only, which adversely effects green pilots. The current bounty system, however, draws the same criticism. For example, on SG5, DieHard has a bounty placed on him. If he wished to fly a Gorn Light Cruiser and was caught on the front and killed, then the enemy would still get the bounty. Those pilots worth high PvP VCs then, would need to choose carefully which ship and where they would fly. Logically, if you are intending to seek out PvP on the front lline, then regardless of whether such a system was in place or not, a player will still prefer to take the best PvP ship available according to his or her own flying style. The argument, then, that this system would dissuade players from trying out different ships is partially supported, but this is no different to our campaign setups currently being employed. Any player can still chose to try out different ships away from the front line of course. This also presents a strategic decision that a player will be faced with. Do they take the PvP ship in case they get caught on the front line, or do they take that hex flipper and risk being killed. For such a criticsm to be substantiated firmly, the system would actually need to be tested on a real server to know for sure if in fact this would be the outcome.

I am not familiar with CUGS ladder play, but this system could be represented as a ladder of pilots based on who had the highest number of PvP points, and would reflect not just total kills, but overall skill as well. In the above example, supposing Hexx killed 8 newbies and was worth 8 PvP VCs and was compared to another player who had only one kill, numbers alone would make Hexx look like a PvP god. However, if the latter player's one kill hapenned to be WarSears and the battle was a very hard fought one between aces, and WarSears was worth 15 PvP VCs at the time, then this system better reflects the skill of a pilot, in addition to kills made. The overall worth of a pilot to each side then, whether it be through sheer number of kills, or hard fought battles, or both, is then characterised by their PvP VC worth.
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Offline KAT Chuut-Ritt

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Re: Yet another server rule idea
« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2005, 10:12:12 pm »
Do they take the PvP ship in case they get caught on the front line, or do they take that hex flipper and risk being killed. For such a criticsm to be substantiated firmly, the system would actually need to be tested on a real server to know for sure if in fact this would be the outcome.


Speaking from personal experience, I knew on AOTK I that I had a bounty on me and thus postponed my venture into learning how to fly Lyran as I didn't want to be caught in a ship I wasn't familiar with.  This was a big part of the reason I flew Lyran on Storm Season II as the situation on AOTK I prevented me from trying out Lyran earlier as I had hoped to do, it being a rare occassion at that time that the Lyrans and Kzin were allied on a server.

Offline FPF-DieHard

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Re: Yet another server rule idea
« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2005, 03:46:47 pm »
How is taking a flipper risking you getting killed?   All it risks is you getting beaten.
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Re: Yet another server rule idea
« Reply #15 on: November 02, 2005, 04:48:59 pm »
Do they take the PvP ship in case they get caught on the front line, or do they take that hex flipper and risk being killed. For such a criticsm to be substantiated firmly, the system would actually need to be tested on a real server to know for sure if in fact this would be the outcome.


Speaking from personal experience, I knew on AOTK I that I had a bounty on me and thus postponed my venture into learning how to fly Lyran as I didn't want to be caught in a ship I wasn't familiar with.  This was a big part of the reason I flew Lyran on Storm Season II as the situation on AOTK I prevented me from trying out Lyran earlier as I had hoped to do, it being a rare occassion at that time that the Lyrans and Kzin were allied on a server.

I would have the Admin. say that you cannot put a bounty on any player that has not reached Captain's rank in lifetime prestige. Usually that is set at 25K.  Maybe, Commodore rank, that's 50K.  That will give the player ample time to dabble in unfamiliar races.

Offline KAT Chuut-Ritt

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Re: Yet another server rule idea
« Reply #16 on: November 03, 2005, 01:02:15 am »
How is taking a flipper risking you getting killed?   All it risks is you getting beaten.

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Offline Riskyllama

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Re: Yet another server rule idea
« Reply #17 on: November 03, 2005, 01:42:08 am »
then again, what real risk is that to you or any other drone boater?, seeing as you can pay for a DF+ in about 3 missions and on the last two servers, they counted for no points?

alls killing you does is slow you down for 5...maybe 10 minutes getting another ship and keep you out of one hex for half an hour
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Offline KAT Chuut-Ritt

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Re: Yet another server rule idea
« Reply #18 on: November 03, 2005, 09:42:02 am »
then again, what real risk is that to you or any other drone boater?, seeing as you can pay for a DF+ in about 3 missions and on the last two servers, they counted for no points?

alls killing you does is slow you down for 5...maybe 10 minutes getting another ship and keep you out of one hex for half an hour

The same pretty much applies for a Command Cruiser to all but the most casual player after the first day or so.  Think of how many Command Cruisers most players can afford by servers end.

I'm not saying that a server setup with VCs on a DF would necessarily be wrong, just that the VC should match the ship not the pilot.  Otherwise I'll simply  forego PvP altogether to play the strategic type of game I prefer in order to keep more options open.  It would be a shame, because I do really enjoy PvP, but it is a secondary thing with me as I prefer to play strategically first and tactically as the situation arises.  If I make 5 kills in a PvP ship, then lose all advantage gained for my team by doing so by getting killed deepstriking in a DF seems to me that there is no longer a reason to try to PvP for points.

I've pretty much flown with everyone at one time or another so most of you know sometimes I like to hexflip, and other times I'll basically be hunting for the enemy pilots, it depends on my mood and the situation.  When my options disappear my enjoyment level goes down as does the time I invest in playing.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2005, 09:56:15 am by KAT Chuut-Ritt »

Offline Mog

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Re: Yet another server rule idea
« Reply #19 on: November 03, 2005, 10:54:49 am »
What's with the obsession with adding even more frkkn rules? Aren't there too many as it is?
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