Topic: "New" Players & Servers..

[Hexx]

As part of an ongoing debate it's been mentioned to me that my serve idea adds nothing to the game
and penalizes new or less skilled players.

I don't think it does, but I'm bored and though I'd try a new debate

Should a brand new player be encouraged to jump in and fly a BCH/DN/BB
because it's "fun", yet when that new player is toasted by a much smaller ship it's posted and talked about?

Or should they be encouraged to fly more of the CCH/CWL until they've learned to use the basic ship systems to their
fullest?

While I certainly wouldn't deny anyone the chance to fly what they want, I think it would be better to encourage them fly a
smaller ship to get the feel for it.

I can't help but notice that while many people have said that they should be allowed to fly whatver they want, the same people still
laugh when the new player is killed by a much smaller ship. It would seem to me that this isn't actually helping us attract new players
as much as it is setting them up to be humiliated.

[KBF-Kapact]

As part of an ongoing debate it's been mentioned to me that my serve idea adds nothing to the game
and penalizes new or less skilled players.

I don't think it does, but I'm bored and though I'd try a new debate

Should a brand new player be encouraged to jump in and fly a BCH/DN/BB
because it's "fun", yet when that new player is toasted by a much smaller ship it's posted and talked about?

Or should they be encouraged to fly more of the CCH/CWL until they've learned to use the basic ship systems to their
fullest?

While I certainly wouldn't deny anyone the chance to fly what they want, I think it would be better to encourage them fly a
smaller ship to get the feel for it.

I can't help but notice that while many people have said that they should be allowed to fly whatver they want, the same people still
laugh when the new player is killed by a much smaller ship. It would seem to me that this isn't actually helping us attract new players
as much as it is setting them up to be humiliated.

I agree....

[FPF-SCM_TraceyG_XC]

Well, there is some merit to this. Some of you who may know Aurora from the Hot and Spicy forum, may not realise that in fact she does have OP, and its all patched up, and ready to play. She even had SG5 installed on her system, but basically, having never played the game before, she was simply too afraid of being killed and losing points for what ever team she was on, to actually get on and fly.

So yes, without a doubt, our current server rules do not encourage new players.

[Hexx]

Well, there is some merit to this. Some of you who may know Aurora from the Hot and Spicy forum, may not realise that in fact she does have OP, and its all patched up, and ready to play. She even had SG5 installed on her system, but basically, having never played the game before, she was simply too afraid of being killed and losing points for what ever team she was on, to actually get on and fly.

So yes, without a doubt, our current server rules do not encourage new players.

Clarity of rules  would be another thing we need then.. no VP's were awarded for ship losses on SGO..

people have to realize that being killed isn't a bad thing

My first D2 PVP was against Dizzy, he was flying some sort of Fed CC/CA with a freighter (don't know why.. it was a long time ago) I managed to kill the freighter
with a F5D, then Dizzy stomped me.
Probably was 30 or 40 PVP's after that that I managed my second PVP kill.
The it was awhile again..
I actually didn't start breaking even until i started flying Lyran (well, awhile after i started flying Lyran)
Then I figured out that I didn't outgun Hydran ships at PB range and it's been uphill ever since.

But it took awhile before I became th PVP demon I am today...

[Strat]

I'd say a powerful well rounded Light Cruiser.  Mabey Heavy cruiser.  Perhaps depending on the era of the server thus far.
Something that has enough power to move easy and weapons to do decent damage.  Something thats wasy to experiment with.
Definately not Frigate or BB's.  Those are to much a side of the spectrum.

Also I'd say a lot of patient and encouraging support.

New guys need a reason to play a game this old and hard to come by.
So make it a pleasurable game, and a supportive community.
Why would they want to go anywhere else? 

Having read some other posts metioning it, don't go to to much trouble to make a server molded for a new person. They need a goal, someplace that demands growth.  If they have personal motivation, all the more they will enjoy winning.  Perhaps having them join other experienced guys when at all possible will be a benfit to them.  Letting them learn from others and also have the company will amke a difference I belive. Just don';t worry to much about newer guys when making servers.

Just my 2c

Strat

[Green]

As part of an ongoing debate it's been mentioned to me that my serve idea adds nothing to the game
and penalizes new or less skilled players.

Damn good question Hexx.  I tend to believe that new or less skilled players shouldn't be encouraged to fly a DN for the reasons you've stated.  But see no problems if they do.  It is a game afterall.

However, given that you are one of the D2's long term players here and certainly not new to the game, the caveat that less skilled players shouldn't be allowed to fly a BB, DN, or BCH would limit you to only CWLs and such.  Are you sure you want to go down that road?

[762_XC]

Well awarding points for killing line CA's is certainly not the way to go.

The only thing I can think of is for RM's to come up with a short (maybe 3-4 players) "guest list" of n00b players who would be exempted from PvP losses.

This could allow us to use a build-point OOB without necessarily restricting n00bs from flying what they want.

[Hexx]

As part of an ongoing debate it's been mentioned to me that my serve idea adds nothing to the game
and penalizes new or less skilled players.

Damn good question Hexx.  I tend to believe that new or less skilled players shouldn't be encouraged to fly a DN for the reasons you've stated.  However, given that you are one of the D2's long term players here and certainly not new to the game, it still means you won't be able to fly a BB, DN, or BCH.  Are you sure you want to go down that road?

LOL a beautiful way of lumping me in the "less skilled" category eh Green ?
You can come out and say it, I don't mind..  
And I'm a bad person to ask, I really don't care if I fly the heavy metal or not, I actually generally prefer not.
I'm almost convinced against Western opponents the DWLP is a betetr PVP ship than a BCH.

And while I admit, I'd like to do some 1V1's with the LDNH, the D2 cap ships have largely evolved into fleet battles.
I'm a terrible wing as I'm one of those people who expects theri wing to know exactly what I want them to do without having
to bother telling htem, so I'm more than willing to pass on the cap ships to players who are better at winging together.

[KBF-Crim]

IMHO...someone (a new player) who simply joins up out of the blue should simply be exempt from ALL facets of the DV ruleset....meaning anyone they may kill doesnt count, and if anyone kills them it doesnt count...

At least until such time as they understand the rules....

On most servers...it's not like anyone can just pop on and buy a capitol ship anyways...

[Hexx]

Well awarding points for killing line CA's is certainly not the way to go.

The only thing I can think of is for RM's to come up with a short (maybe 3-4 players) "guest list" of n00b players who would be exempted from PvP losses.

This could allow us to use a build-point OOB without necessarily restricting n00bs from flying what they want.

But it can still lead to issues
A new player in a CCH is hardly a target worth stalking , unless you're desperate for a kill
a new player in a DN/BCH tends to get jumped asap.

And can lead to other problems, while a new player in a Lyran BCH probably isn't going to cause any serious
hex flipping issues, give the new player a Gorn BCS and he's going to be able to flip hexes fast enough that he becomes a target.

[FRA.E.Kehakoul_XC]

I t will be difficult to draw a line where the noob ends and the vet starts.
We dont know  who is really "new".

[FPF-DieHard]

I t will be difficult to draw a line where the noob ends and the vet starts.

5'8 . . .

[Kzinbane]

It's not just Noobies...
I decided not to play SG5 as I got a late start, and noticed how serious everyone seemed to be getting about being sure not to get destroyed flying certain ships.  In AOTK2 a couple times I got drafted and my allied  players were annoyed - they wanted to play with THEIR buddies.  I was even asked to leave certain hexes so I couldn't be drafted "accidently"!  That had NEVER happened to me in the years I had played previously.
It's almost like the game is becomming an "old boys/girls" club where noobies (and returning oldies) are not made to feel particularly welcome.
You can kind of get a feel of how this game is treated too seriously just by seeing how fun servers don't get players.  Indeed unless you are one of the few accepted members - you can start a server and no one plays.  It has to be Dizzy, or Hexx or J'inn or something otherwise the server - even if it may be pretty good - is a ghost town.

Ok, Rant off...

TO me the bounty system for  players is more what people enjoy as opposed to killing particular ships.  It is the pilot of the ship that really makes it dangerous for the most part.  A DN with a noob isn't going to be that big of a threat as compared to that same DN flown by a "master"!  If a Noobie starts to get enough kills to matter then they get re-listed as "bounty" material - and become worth points.  At some point the  persons point value is mulitpiied by the ship to = a bounty award.  A noobie in a BB may be 1 point.  One of the old masters in a BB may be worth 10! (or whatever).  That same master in a CA may be worth some points where the Noobie wouldn't be worth any.

So my take:  1.  Keep track of kills of ships larger than some particular class size and more importantly who's killing them.
2.  Once someone has shown themselves to be dangerous bountie them!  Now they're worth points based on what they're flying.
this way once a noob gets good enough to start racking up kills they automatically become prey based on how good they are.  Known 'old hats' of the game that are known to be good already can automatically be put on the bounty list right from the start.

Kzinbane

[KBF-Crim]

I got drafted and my allied  players were annoyed - they wanted to play with THEIR buddies.  I was even asked to leave certain hexes so I couldn't be drafted "accidently"!  That had NEVER happened to me in the years I had played previously.

That attitude is not universal.

[Hexx]

It's not just Noobies...
I.  Indeed unless you are one of the few accepted members - you can start a server and no one plays.  It has to be Dizzy, or Hexx or J'inn or something
Kzinbane

  
 Yes I'm having so much sucess trying to translate my genius into servers

I don;t know who would actually ask someone to leave a hex, unless possibly it was a agreed upon fight, and even that's pretty rude
I'm all for equal opportunity myself, I'll fight & run from anyone.

[762_XC]

Were you on voice comms Kzinbane? If not I can understand them asking you that - if so, then whoever did needs a beating.

[Dfly]

I too like the ideas of bounties on particular pilot's heads.  I beleive every kill on that bounty head should be worth something, and the idea of it  being multiplied by the ship size is good.

let's say Dizzy is worth 2 points. 

Frig=X1
Light=X2
heavy=X3
bch=X4
DN=X5
BB=X8?

Dizzy in his BCH would be 8 points for his kill.  For a runoff, get 1/2 that, rounded up.  so you run him off in a frig, that is 2X1, X1/2=1

It matters not what size you fly, only what size the bounty is using.  Perhaps a slight flaw to that would be the Bounty man would want the biggest ship, but wait.  Let's say that any pilot with a bounty cannot fly a BB.  that would make things very interesting.

Perhaps limit the total pilots with bounties on each side to say 6 pilots each?  Should normally be at least one online at nearly any time.  Pilots with bounties can end up being changed as server runs if a Bounty Hunter gets a few kills as his head price will go up.

Ideas? IMO I would like to see a server tried with such a system, or similar.

[Dizzy]

no VP's were awarded for ship losses on SGO..

Dunno what all the stink was about. The only one that got yelled out on our side was Shin for wasting a BB, hehe. And he deserved it. Shin's not a newb, but you'll never see a newb on their own taking out a BB into a knife fight and thinking they will 'learn to play the game' that way, hehe. It's not something newbs do.

They ARE fretful of losing ships. And RM's need to encourage them to do so. F9thKirk lost quite a few ships but not ONCE did anyone bitch about it. We kept telling him and others that getting wasted (cept shin) was the best way to learn. You cant learn if you keep disengaging w/o a fight. You have to push it... get killed and in doing so figuring out your limits. But it doesnt help with a server designed to punish players for getting killed. Kirk is the kind of player I want back on my team the next server. He contributed every day, flipped hexes, always asked to be included in Ops and was just a morale boost to have on the team. The fact he was willing to engage and lose ships yet keep trying undaunted shows me he is interested in becoming a pvp player. Thats an awesome attitude.

So, despite the way I setup the Victory Points to factor in PvP and the fact that no one side on any round earned VP's for pvp engagements, peeps are still bitching. I guess I didnt explain them well enough despite the fact they worked as intended... But apparently not well enough to bust the stigma newbs have of losing a ship and feeling they are hurting the team...

Following this thought process, I'll be adding another idea for SGO6, I think it's time to directly address a newbs point of view and get them into the game with 'Newb Points'. Rather than using the rules set I had which pretty much made sure no one scored any VP's off PvP play, I think this direct newb PvP approach may pan out better for them...

Newb Points would be given out by RM's to players at the start of the game. These newbs would use them in one of two ways. If in a PvP they die, they use one of their few Newb Points and their death isnt counted. If they score a kill, then they need to give up a newb point for it to count. This way, a newb doesnt have to fret over hurting the team if they die and  helps them contribute better. Damn I'm good... I was a newb once too ya know. Looking back this seems to be a good idea. I'll let Tracey G come up with a politically correct terminology for it tho. hehe

Lets delve further a bit on a seperate topic. Some are complaining there needs to be more of a penalty for ace players. Well, I penalized the top two players from each team by placing a bounty on their heads. That would make them work harder to make up for what they lost, and thus balance it out their high kill totals. Was the bounty not high enough? Perhaps it should be based on the players kills percentage?

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

It's not just Noobies...
I decided not to play SG5 as I got a late start, and noticed how serious everyone seemed to be getting about being sure not to get destroyed flying certain ships.  In AOTK2 a couple times I got drafted and my allied  players were annoyed - they wanted to play with THEIR buddies.  I was even asked to leave certain hexes so I couldn't be drafted "accidently"!  That had NEVER happened to me in the years I had played previously.
It's almost like the game is becomming an "old boys/girls" club where noobies (and returning oldies) are not made to feel particularly welcome.
You can kind of get a feel of how this game is treated too seriously just by seeing how fun servers don't get players.  Indeed unless you are one of the few accepted members - you can start a server and no one plays.  It has to be Dizzy, or Hexx or J'inn or something otherwise the server - even if it may be pretty good - is a ghost town.

Well I guess I owe you an apology for one of those Kzinbane.

The situation was not exactly typical however,

We were trying to drive Duck's Rom DNL, what ever its called off the planet we had taken from the coalition, so that we could boost back the DV on it.  We had organized a strike force of 3 pilots to do so each with a specific function, A fast Lyran cruiser to anchor and keep up the pressure, a Mirak DWD to restrict his movement somewhat with medium speed drones and possibly anchor, and a mirak carrier (battletug variety since the shipyards were unkind at theat moment)  to provide the "Boom".  We knew Duck to be very skilled with that boat and didn't want to take any chances.

We had asked everyone on voice coms to stay clear, and I had even typed it on mirak chat, but the message wasn't recieved.  So instead of the fast Lyran we drafted Kzinbane in an mirak mediun command cruiser.  To make matters worse, and my mood as well,  the carrier pilot who had just bought his ship for the purpose of catching duck forgot to update from stock fighter loadouts.

I was a bit frustrated that mission since we couldn't coordinate with Kzinbane via voice coms and missed a couple of opportunites due to being out of synch.  Without the Lyran fast cruiser I had the only ship with the speed to catch and tractor duck, but my wingmen weren't able to arrive on the scene when I managed it breifly before being gutted.

My frustration wasn't due to any desire to fly with a particular pilot Kzinbane, my frustration was not being able to fly with a particular ship combination that we had tried to set up for that particular task, and tried to communicate to our side beforehand.  About 5 minutes after the battle I got over it and decided "it just wasn't meant to be this time" we will just have to try again later.  But I admit at the time I wasn't very pleased with that situation. 

I do apologize if you took it to mean you were not welcome to fly with me, that was not the impression I meant to give.  I had fun running missions with you as my wing after that so I had no idea you were upset about that affair.

I do recommend that pilots do get on voice coms, even if it is listen only, when at all possible to avoid this type of miscommunication. Racial chat is also helpful but to a much lesser degree.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

As far as new players,

Like Crim said, Just simply don't count their kills and don't count it when they make a kill.  No counted kills= no embarassing posts.

However, since they might be in a big ship and be chasing off people form hexes, I think their disengagement penalties might be doubled when they are flying a ship normally worth VCs.