Topic: About video cards

[Mackie]

Since ive kind of lost the track of their developement in the past couple years, whats the absolutely best card of the moment? And oh, I prefer ATI's

Right now I have a ATI Radeon 9800 128mb which is getting fairly old and cant run some games such as FEAR or Quake 4 well enough anymore so I was thinking of replacing it with the best possible card out there without really sparing money... 1000€ budget

[Sirgod]

Well, I have an ATI800 Pro, cost me about $500.00 US about 1 year and a half ago. I think there a better card out now, But with 256 MB of DDR memory on It, I can use both my monitors with out any drop in Frame Rate on most games. I know Doom 3 looks pretty sharp on It. DVD playback is also awesome.

Stephen

[Dash Jones]

The absolute best card, as even admitted by ATi if I recall correctly, is the Nvidia GeForce 7800 which was released...however Ati believes they will one up it really soon.

I ran FEAR on the 9800 I believe (it's the Ati in this machine...so I could have sworn it was that or whatever the 9000 AIW card was I think, unless my cousin upgraded this machine without me knowing), so it should be possible...though you might want it slightly bigger than 128.

However, the supreme card right now is the 7800 which will cost you a large amount of money to get.  Right on it's heels is the X800 though you might also see if you can afford something in the X1800 series as well.

[Javora]

The thing is what video card adapter does your motherboard have?  If you have a AGP slot as I suspect then a nVidia 7800 won't help you in the least since it is PCIe only.  In fact ATI has released their new video card series X1300~1800 for PCIe only as well.  That leaves you with two options, either the ATI X800~X850 or the nVidia 6600~6800 Ultra.  IMHO I would go with the nVidia 6800 Ultra, that card is in your price range and it handles pixel shader 3.0 something that ATI X800~850 card can't do.  If you want a higher performance video card than plan on updating your entire system as you will need a new motherboard.  Hope this helps.

[Tus-XC]

i'm running a 6800 gt (agp version) on my computer, cost me somwhere in the range for 400 bucks.  good cards, plays hl2 very well w/ no visible drop in frames w/ max graphics (though 1024x768 for resolution, i know better than to run it higher, it will slow down somthing lol)

[Mackie]

Thanks for the info guys, helps indeed
And yeah, I have a 8x AGP slot, dont even know what the heck is PCIe anyways :/
Anyone care to give me a quick run in on what it basically does / how is it better / why is it better?

I have grown quite the distaste for NVidias cards, dont trust the things a bit, break too easily ;p

[Sirgod]

Thanks for the info guys, helps indeed
And yeah, I have a 8x AGP slot, dont even know what the heck is PCIe anyways :/
Anyone care to give me a quick run in on what it basically does / how is it better / why is it better?

I have grown quite the distaste for NVidias cards, dont trust the things a bit, break too easily ;p

PCIe stands for PCI express. Basicly It's similiar to the old PCI slots on your MB, You probably have a sound card, Modem or network adapter in yours, However, this allows IIRC, a faster Data flow from the Mb to the Graphics card. Here's a site that explains abit more on compatability.  http://www.pcisig.com/developers/compliance_program/integrators_list/pcie/


Stephen

[Iceman]

X800's are not "right on the heels" of Nvidia's 7800's. They're more "A good step behind" the 6800's.  ATi lost this round, big time.

[Javora]

Thanks for the info guys, helps indeed

I have grown quite the distaste for NVidias cards, dont trust the things a bit, break too easily ;p

Personally I think the hardware quality is about the same in both ATI and nVidia, each side has their share of lemons.  IMHO pixel shader 3.0 support makes nVidia 6800 Ultra a much better card.  But if you are really headset on an ATI card then I would get the ATI X850 with 256MB of Ram.  This is the farthest you can go with an AGP based motherboard ATI card.  This way you won't have to upgrade your video card again if you buy a lesser video card and you can save your money for something else.

[Dash Jones]

I think I might put the X800 series above the 6000 series myself...just a tad...but the drivers drive me drivingly insane.  In that regards Nvidia rules the sea over Ati...of course the 6800 may or may not have better specs...but I'm a little more partial to the X800 series...though typically I like Nvidia's work more...typically...

[Nemesis]

With a little luck I may need a PCI Express video card soon myself.  It depends on whether I get the free CPU from work or not.  (Athlon 64 X2 3800+ or 4200+  if it occurs).  If so I will build a new machine around it and I haven't been watching the video card field very closely recently so suggestions on cards for such a system are in order.  The motherboard will be an ASUS A8N-SLI Premium (if I can get it locally- I believe I can one way or another).

I don't know yet which OS I will use, migrate my current Win2kPro to it or make it a Linux machine from the start.  Which will make it hard to decide windows/gaming video card or Linux movie card for playing DVDs to the TV.

If I don't get the CPU I'll have a 9 megapixel Camera to play with instead.  So I get a powerful new toy either way. 

[Mackie]

Well I suppose im going to wait a little longer, to let ATI to put out their next big thing (tm)

[F9thDigi]

What about going down the dual cards route?

ATI Crossfirehttp://www.ati.com/technology/crossfire/features.html

or

nVidia SLI http://www.slizone.com/page/slizone_learn.html

[Javora]

With a little luck I may need a PCI Express video card soon myself.  It depends on whether I get the free CPU from work or not.  (Athlon 64 X2 3800+ or 4200+  if it occurs).  If so I will build a new machine around it and I haven't been watching the video card field very closely recently so suggestions on cards for such a system are in order.  The motherboard will be an ASUS A8N-SLI Premium (if I can get it locally- I believe I can one way or another).

I don't know yet which OS I will use, migrate my current Win2kPro to it or make it a Linux machine from the start.  Which will make it hard to decide windows/gaming video card or Linux movie card for playing DVDs to the TV.

If I don't get the CPU I'll have a 9 megapixel Camera to play with instead.  So I get a powerful new toy either way. 

I've heard nothing but good things about the Asus A8N-SLI and should last a good couple of years.  As for what video cards, nVidia is really the only choose since the motherboard is an nForce SLI board.  As for which video card you want, that depends on how much you want to spend.  But remember that just because you have the option for two video cards doesn't mean you have to put two video cards into the system.  You could put a nVidia 7800 GTX into the system, wait a year or two and then put in a second 7800 GTX when the price comes down.

As for which type of OS to put on the system, you could always go duel-boot route.  Or for that matter you could use your current system as a Linux file server for all your movies and other data.  That would free up your new system for Win2000/XP gaming machine.  Since I'm not really sure what you have in mind I'm not really sure what to suggest.

Well I suppose im going to wait a little longer, to let ATI to put out their next big thing (tm)

Just keep in mind that ATI's next big thing as you put it probably won't be usable with the AGP port on your current system.

What about going down the dual cards route?

ATI Crossfirehttp://www.ati.com/technology/crossfire/features.html

or

nVidia SLI http://www.slizone.com/page/slizone_learn.html

For all practical purposes ATI's Crossfire is still vaporware.  ATI has been really having problems meeting deadlines for the most part of the year.  Despite what ATI's website said, I'm really not expecting Crossfire to be available for another six months to a year (at most) unless something has radically changed in the last couple of weeks that I'm unaware of.  So until Crossfire is released and has proven itself, nVidia's SLI motherboards are the only way to go.

For me the real question is will duel video cards really be worth the cost?  If anyone has spent any time looking at video card benchmarks, they will notice that doubling the video cards in your system does not double systems video performance.  I think the best I've seen so far for duel video card systems is a 40% increase over single video card system with the same model video card.  That is one of the reasons I suggested to Nemesis that he only put one video card in the system he is thinking about building.  Since I am not convinced that having two video cards in one system is worth the cost IMHO.

[Mackie]

Arhh... I'll have to think on this ;/

[Nemesis]

As for what video cards, nVidia is really the only choose since the motherboard is an nForce SLI board.  As for which video card you want, that depends on how much you want to spend.  But remember that just because you have the option for two video cards doesn't mean you have to put two video cards into the system.  You could put a nVidia 7800 GTX into the system, wait a year or two and then put in a second 7800 GTX when the price comes down.

I don't really need SLI as the most video intensive things I do are SFC, Never Winter Nights and play DVDs.  I'm not into things like Doom 3.  I probably won't put a really expensive card in as I hadn't really planned on building a new machine anytime soon, but if I get the free CPU it is just too tempting to resist.    What I need is a card that can handle those jobs and run at 2048x1536 with at least a 85 hz refresh rate.

I'll likely eventually add a 2nd card and go dual monitor though.

I may look into MythTV for the Television side of things.  It ought to be a learning experience but that is half the fun at least.  Setting things up under Windows would be much easier (due to my Windows vs Linux knowledge levels).

As for which type of OS to put on the system, you could always go duel-boot route.  Or for that matter you could use your current system as a Linux file server for all your movies and other data.  That would free up your new system for Win2000/XP gaming machine.  Since I'm not really sure what you have in mind I'm not really sure what to suggest.

Dual boot for me is an issue as I won't buy Windows XP (call it activation phobia) and the older Win2k is hard to find.  Either the new machine (if built) will be Linux or the older machine will be converted to Linux and the new machine will get the old Win2kPro.

The "old" machine is quite powerful in its own right.  Athlon XP3200+, ASUS A7N-E Deluxe motherboard, 1gb ram, 250gb HD, ATI Radeon AIW 9800Pro, DVD+/-RW and CD R/W.
 
Then of course there are the two dual cpu machines...  Which of course explains how I got to be #4 on the SETI team (onginal not BOINC).

[Iceman]

Couple of things.

You don't need 2 cards for dual monitors, I do it all the time and I have 1 card. (I use my computer to play DVD's on my TV using it as the 2nd monitor).

Also, ATi's Crossfire thing SUCKS. No other way to put it.

I hate to sound like a jerk, but anyone who's saying ATi's X800 series is better than a 6800 simply doesn't know what they're talking about. ATi has been scrambling to catch up for a good few months now because of this huge gap in performace between the x800 and the 6800 (and now even larger gap with 7800). The Crossfire was a rushed result to respond to Nvidia's SLI.

You can either A) Buy a 6800gt (or 7800, both awesome) or B) buy an ATi for a bit less (perhaps) and take a huge performace hit.  Simple fact of the matter is ATi lost this round, like Nvidia lost the round between 9800 and FX series.

[Nemesis]

You don't need 2 cards for dual monitors, I do it all the time and I have 1 card. (I use my computer to play DVD's on my TV using it as the 2nd monitor).

But can you do two monitors AND the TV?

[Javora]

Also, ATi's Crossfire thing SUCKS. No other way to put it.

I hate to sound like a jerk, but anyone who's saying ATi's X800 series is better than a 6800 simply doesn't know what they're talking about. ATi has been scrambling to catch up for a good few months now because of this huge gap in performace between the x800 and the 6800 (and now even larger gap with 7800). The Crossfire was a rushed result to respond to Nvidia's SLI.

You can either A) Buy a 6800gt (or 7800, both awesome) or B) buy an ATi for a bit less (perhaps) and take a huge performace hit.  Simple fact of the matter is ATi lost this round, like Nvidia lost the round between 9800 and FX series.

Yeah ATI's responce to nVidia's SLI wasn't all that great.  I just surprised that products are actually out, I figured another six months at best.  This is a very bad thing for consumers because nVidia can keep the prices high knowing it has a clear advantage.

As for the comparisons between the X800~850 and the 6800GT~6800 Ultras, since I have seen both cards working and have seen the benchmarks, that experience leaves my thoughts are mixed.  If you are talking frame rates and only frame rates the X850 does compair and beats the 6800 Ultra but barely, the benchmarks I have seen on web confirm that.  However if you are talking visual quality nVidia IMHO has taken a serious lead.  Again from what I have seen and experienced both cards are good but nVidia is better right now in terms of video quality.  I think this has to do in some way with ATI not supporting pixel shader 3.0.

So I think if you only play games and only care about frame rates then ATI may be the better pick (single card setup not duel).  However if you watch movies, like your games to look good while your playing and don't mind a couple dropped frames then you should stick with nVidia.  Hopefully ATI's latest X1300~1800 video card series will change all of that but from what I have read in the reviews and their non-support of pixel shader 3.0 (yet again??!?) I'm not keeping my hopes up.

Again and I can't stress this enough, I hope ATI can turn things around and soon because nVidia having a commanding lead can be a very bad thing for us at the cash regester.

You don't need 2 cards for dual monitors, I do it all the time and I have 1 card. (I use my computer to play DVD's on my TV using it as the 2nd monitor).

But can you do two monitors AND the TV?

It depends on the video card you have.  If your video card has a CRT port, a DVI port and a S-Video Out port, then you should be able to run all three devices.  I've never tried it before so I don't know how well it works or how much of a performance hit you will take when you set it up.  But yeah, it should work.

[Dracho]

You don't need 2 cards for dual monitors, I do it all the time and I have 1 card. (I use my computer to play DVD's on my TV using it as the 2nd monitor).

But can you do two monitors AND the TV?

(Cough)  You can buy a television for less than a video card or monitor and put it beside the computer.

[Iceman]

So long as you have 3 outputs i don't see why not. That's a hugeeee desktop area though.


Also ATi I think is pretty doomed unless they're doing something in secret. Nvidia (supposedly) already has this upcoming generation of videocards DONE and is just sitting back and waiting for ATi to do SOMETHING while the work on more cards for the generation AFTER this upcoming one. If thats true, I feel bad for ATi and just hope they don't join Voodoo.

[Nemesis]

(Cough)  You can buy a television for less than a video card or monitor and put it beside the computer.

Where is the fun in that? 

The TV is already within easy distance of the PC.  I have a Stargate episode playing right now (The Curse - Anna-Louise Plowman  yummm.  What was I saying again?)

...
...
...  (Jackson on screen, brain comes back on line)

Actually there is an advantage.  The "primary" monitor is shared the secondary monitor would not be nor would the TV. 

[FPF-SCM_TraceyG_XC]

Gigabyte released an Athlon based motherboard that was designed specifically for nVidia 6600GT SLI mode. The performance of the dual 6600GT cards left even the 6800 behind for dead (which at the time was the fastest nVidia card). Since then, nVidia released  a dual 6600GT card, which when used in conjunction with SLI gives you 4 GPUs. No single video card chip is yet to beat this configuration. Additionally, while the 6600GT was advertised as a mid range card, it was the only card in its class that also sipported Pixel Shader 3.0 which at the time could only be found on newer high end video cards, not to mention that ATI still only had a 2MB texture cache (whereas nVidia use a 4MB cache). nVidia typically have always had better drivers than ATI. The only issue with the 6600GT is where the resolution is increased to 1280x1024 and upwards where it begins to fall behind the high end cards, but on lower resolutions keeps pace quite well with its more expensive counterparts at less than half the cost.

As far as the market goes though, nVidia and ATI have been pretty even over the last few years, sometimes ATI has been better, but then later it will be nVidia and the top video card had changed places often. Recently though, nVidia has stayed ahead of ATI.

If I was to buy a new video card today, it is pointless however to throw good money after an AGP video card. The AGP slot reached its maximum theoretical limit with 8x the bandwisth of a normal PCI slot (the AGP architecture is actually an extension of PCI). PCIe or PCI Express is a redesigned PCI slot that can continue that development, and comes in different flavours. The PCIe slot used for video cards is the PCIe16 version (that is, equivalent to 16x PCI bandwisth or twice the bandwidth of the best AGP port). PCIe also has provision in its specs for 1x, 2x, 4x, and 8x PCIe slots as well, but very few motherboard manufacturers are actually using them. These slower slots are also physically different (the 1x slot is only about 1/4 of the size of a 16x slot).

In a few years or so, AGP will be totally unheard of just as ISA slots eventually disappeared with the advent of PCI.

[Tus-XC]

not quite tracey, AGP still had a ways got go before being maxed out (based on what i've read).  but since PCIe provides more speed and can be used for more than just vid cards it just makes sense to make the switch. 

[Javora]

If I was to buy a new video card today, it is pointless however to throw good money after an AGP video card. The AGP slot reached its maximum theoretical limit with 8x the bandwisth of a normal PCI slot (the AGP architecture is actually an extension of PCI). PCIe or PCI Express is a redesigned PCI slot that can continue that development, and comes in different flavours.

It is not pointless at all if the motherboard in your system has an AGP port instead of a PCIe port.  If you have a ATI 8000~9000 series video card or a nVidia 5000 series video card than a new AGP based video card would be well worth the money.  Especially if you already have a 3.4Ghz or higher processor.  A setup like that should last for another one or two years.  That is a lot cheaper then building or buying another system.

Tus is correct AGP isn't maxed out yet although the latest greatest video cards coming out (as of this writing) may be pushing that limit.  AGP 8x might reached its end but that doesn't mean that video cards have reached that limit as well.  Since gaming companies will not make use of these resent hardware updates for another one or two years I see no reason to build another system.  Especially since the hardware industry is in such a transition period right now anyway.  With duel and quad CPU cores coming out in the next year or two along and with Windows Vista about the same time period, waiting seems like the right thing to do.  I'm not buying into the hype of PCIe just so hardware companies can make more money and neather should anyone else.

[FPF-SCM_TraceyG_XC]

My apologies, I should have worded that better. In the articles I had read, it claimed that the AGP architecture had gone as far as it could, namely the AGP 8x specification. Whether video cards are actually utilising all of that bandwidth, is of course another issue.

Here is an interesting article that compares PCIe with AGP

http://www.cooltechzone.com/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=506&Itemid=0

I agree completely that now is not the time to be buying a new system with all of the imminently pending changes to the industry in the very near future.

[Elvis]

The current set of video cards still does not utilize the bandwidth of an 8x AGP slot. Other considerations have arisen, namely one of efficiently using available power. A AGP slot provides around 30 watts, a PCI-E X16 slot can provide up to 75 watts of power. A  6800 ULTRA required 2 molex connectors in the AGP variety. Any bets on how many molexes a 7800 GTX would take? We wiil not see any AGP card more powerful than a 6800 Ultra or X850XT although ATI hasn't ruled out an AGP version of the X1600(not the 1800).

[Elvis]

Deals can be had though right now, like this one at Newegg. Buy a 7800GT and Evga will throw in a free rebadged SLI motherboard. I believe the board ia a rebadged Asrock, which is a subsidiary of ASUS IIRC.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814130238

Npt a bad deal. Pair it with this http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16819103537 and your good to move into the next generation for $540. The only other component that might need replacing is your PSU.

[Mackie]

went and bought ati radeon x1600, 180€ (pretty much the same in $) . apparently the agp line of cards are dying out :p

[E_Look]

I hope not too fast, because I don't want to upgrade my mobo, too if I just want to upgrade the vid card.   

[Mackie]

I hope not too fast, because I don't want to upgrade my mobo, too if I just want to upgrade the vid card.   

for what i see, yes, theyre going out quite fast , now would be the time to buy a new one if you want it to be of any use :p

[Overmind]

Best card right now is by far the Radeon X1900XTX.
With 48 pixel processors and 1.1ns memory, not to mention the high clocks, it leaves any competitor way behind.

[Mackie]

Best card right now is by far the Radeon X1900XTX.
With 48 pixel processors and 1.1ns memory, not to mention the high clocks, it leaves any competitor way behind.

PCIE/PCIX?

[Overmind]

The card is PCI-E.
Very few high-end cards are now AGP, and this won't be for long anyway. AGP is finished.

[Tus-XC]

Best card right now is by far the Radeon X1900XTX.
With 48 pixel processors and 1.1ns memory, not to mention the high clocks, it leaves any competitor way behind.

Last i knew the best card in the geforce 7000 series was on par w/ it on benchmarks and in SLI the geforce series wins at 1600x1200 w/ AA and all that.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/video/display/radeon-x1900xtx.html  ya based on the game Frame rates both cards are pretty much on the same level.  the 3dmark has the x1900xtx ahead, but outside of that it all depends on the games you play. 

[Overmind]

The score is close because all current games use standard 1xN instructions.
If a game were to support 1:3 mode, the difference would be up to 50%. And a lot will, very soon.
A professional testing program will show this.

[Dracho]

I have an AMD64 that runs at 3 Ghz and 2 GB of DDR Ram.  before I upgrade chips again, I'm going to swap to a PCIExpress board and run a pair of Nvidia cards in SLI.

[Mackie]

I just tried playing some elder scrolls oblivion with the x1600... I think i may have some sort of an mental erection from the experience