Topic: Open source taking over Europe??

[Nemesis]

Link to full article

Nearly half of European local government bodies are using open source software while nearly a third don't know that they are using open source at all.

A separate FLOSS report from 2002 named performance, flexibility and localization - the ability to easily adapt software programs to local languages - as three key reasons for uptake of FLOSS. The joint report, from the University and International Institute of Infonomics, found performance was top for 83 per cent, security for 75 per cent, and low license fees important for 71 per cent.®

Infiltration combined with doing what the customer wants. 

[Dracho]

Rule #1 where I work:  No open-source applications.  Period.  No exceptions.  Adhere to that policy or your replacement will.

[prometheus]

I've noticed a lot of people, when you've explained to them the savings in cost of open source software are only to willing to move away from microsoft in Europe once you've demonstrated that it won't cause inconvenience...

The main thing I've noticed put's people off Windows XP is product activation.  I don't know how it is in the US, but home users here tend not to understand the licensing laws, and see the OS as being an integral component of their computer... 

When you explain to them that they have the OS on lease as long as microsoft want to continue activating it, and that they have to buy a new OS when they upgrade their machine, they look at you as if you've taken leave of your senses, and say don't be stupid, I've still got a Windows disk I got with the last computer I bought... 

[Mr_Tricorder]

That's pretty much how most people think in the USA too.  In fact, the vast majority of computer users are either unaware of or unconcerned with the existance of other OSes.  Most are aware that there are a handful of people who prefer Mac, and might have heard or read the word "Linux" before, but have no idea what it is or even care.  If you were to ask the average American to list all of the OSes he knows (first you would have to explain what an OS is and add the phrase "like different versions of Windows" on the end), he or she would most likely answer "Windows XP, Windows 98, and Windows 95".
The same is true of open source software (with the possible exception of Firefox).  Most Americans are not aware of the existance of open source programs or even what open source is.  Firefox seems to be the only open source application that has made any headway in reaching the "technologically inept", "computer illiterate", and the "mindless M$ drones" .  I'm hoping Open Office will soon reach the same point, but it still has a ways to go.  Whenever I mention Open Office to someone, I have to explain what it is by comparing it to MS Office, explain who Sun Microsystems is, and give them a general idea of what open source software is and how it is different from commercial software.

[prometheus]

And there is nothing you can do with MS Office that you can't do with Open Office...  It is every bit as good a package...

[jualdeaux]

I just went to their site and the new OpenOfice 2.0 has been released. i'll have to try and get this to check it out. I have had versions of their 1.1.x series in the past.

[Nemesis]

Rule #1 where I work:  No open-source applications.  Period.  No exceptions.  Adhere to that policy or your replacement will.

Do they give a reason or is it just an edict from on high?

[Dracho]

We store sensitive data.  You need to know the life-cycle of the products you are using, and you need contractual obligations and assurances from your vendors.

Open source is okay for your PC at home, but it can land your butt in a sling in a corporate data center, if there is a problem.

[prometheus]

We store sensitive data.  You need to know the life-cycle of the products you are using, and you need contractual obligations and assurances from your vendors.

Open source is okay for your PC at home, but it can land your butt in a sling in a corporate data center, if there is a problem.

Surely the lifespan is indefinite?  When I left my last workplace that had a computer network three years ago in the autumn of 2002, they were still using a more or less entirely DOS network.  I think they had two computers with windows 98 on them in one of the offices, and they had two computers in the business center for people to use to get online, but the rest of the Network was all DOS running on 486's...

They had a system that worked reliably that everyone knew how to work, so didn't see the point in messing around with it...

[Dracho]

What I mean by life cycle is the patch & revision history and documentation of all changes performed to the applications, as well as certification that those changes are what they are advertised to be, and are beneficial.

That's just not available with open source, by its very nature.

Each year, my IT systems must pass audits for:

Sarbannes-Oxley
Visa MasterCard PCI (Payment Card Industry Standards)
SAS-70
Internal IT Security Audit
External IT security Audit

We are considering ISO as well.

At least in the United States, the post-Enron business environment is a maze of regulations and audits that companies must adhere to and perform.  This will either drive open-source software into "closed source" versions, like some of the different flavors of Linux that are maintained by specific vendors (complete with patches), or the audit requirements will keep open source out of most companies.

[Mr_Tricorder]

What I mean by life cycle is the patch & revision history and documentation of all changes performed to the applications, as well as certification that those changes are what they are advertised to be, and are beneficial.

That's just not available with open source, by its very nature.

Each year, my IT systems must pass audits for:

Sarbannes-Oxley
Visa MasterCard PCI (Payment Card Industry Standards)
SAS-70
Internal IT Security Audit
External IT security Audit

We are considering ISO as well.

At least in the United States, the post-Enron business environment is a maze of regulations and audits that companies must adhere to and perform.  This will either drive open-source software into "closed source" versions, like some of the different flavors of Linux that are maintained by specific vendors (complete with patches), or the audit requirements will keep open source out of most companies.

In other words, the "no open source, period" stance is based purely on bureaucracy and accountability and not on what works better and cost less, right?

[prometheus]

What I mean by life cycle is the patch & revision history and documentation of all changes performed to the applications, as well as certification that those changes are what they are advertised to be, and are beneficial.

That's just not available with open source, by its very nature.

Each year, my IT systems must pass audits for:

Sarbannes-Oxley
Visa MasterCard PCI (Payment Card Industry Standards)
SAS-70
Internal IT Security Audit
External IT security Audit

We are considering ISO as well.

At least in the United States, the post-Enron business environment is a maze of regulations and audits that companies must adhere to and perform.  This will either drive open-source software into "closed source" versions, like some of the different flavors of Linux that are maintained by specific vendors (complete with patches), or the audit requirements will keep open source out of most companies.

Ah, yes, I see I misread your post, lifespan instead of life cycle...

Still, it sounds like the post enron US business environment is very much based on the school of thought that Gaius Petronius was always complaining about...  If open source gives you more for less than closed source at home, it seems likely it will do so anywhere, which is why it is taking off in Europe where Governments and businesses have no reason to favour microsoft... 

Contrary to what people overseas seem to believe, European businessmen are neither stupid nor liberteen with their cash...  Hell, some of the businessmen I've worked with round here are so tight they could eat a lump of coal and sh*t a diamond two days later...

Still, if anyone else wants to swap Open Office which is free of charge for Microsoft Office that does precisely the same job for £235.00, bearing in mind that Open Office can export and import MS file formats, then by all means be my guest...

[Dracho]

What I mean by life cycle is the patch & revision history and documentation of all changes performed to the applications, as well as certification that those changes are what they are advertised to be, and are beneficial.

That's just not available with open source, by its very nature.

Each year, my IT systems must pass audits for:

Sarbannes-Oxley
Visa MasterCard PCI (Payment Card Industry Standards)
SAS-70
Internal IT Security Audit
External IT security Audit

We are considering ISO as well.

At least in the United States, the post-Enron business environment is a maze of regulations and audits that companies must adhere to and perform.  This will either drive open-source software into "closed source" versions, like some of the different flavors of Linux that are maintained by specific vendors (complete with patches), or the audit requirements will keep open source out of most companies.

In other words, the "no open source, period" stance is based purely on bureaucracy and accountability and not on what works better and cost less, right?

As are a good 80% of business decisions made in the US.  Keep in mind, if I have 5000 employees who use MS Office, it will cost me about a million dollars to put Office on each of their computers.  If I cannot pass an audit because those employees use open source office to view credit card sales records, then I could be fined and I WILL lose contracts to firms who do have the certifications and auditor check-offs. 

In that case, I did the equalavelent of saving $20 on a tank of cheap gas today,  that is going to burn my motor up sometime tomorrow.

[Nemesis]

We store sensitive data.  You need to know the life-cycle of the products you are using, and you need contractual obligations and assurances from your vendors.

Open source is okay for your PC at home, but it can land your butt in a sling in a corporate data center, if there is a problem.

There are open source programs that have all these things.  Red Hat Enterprise Linux, Novels SUSE Enterprise Linux for two. 

The article that I posted a link to in the other thread (link to article) was about PricewaterhouseCoopers (PWC) Japans experiences.  I suspect that they would have all the same requirements.  Of course not every program has an open source counterpart with such backing so not every thing can be migrated.

Depending on your definition of "data center" I would have to guess that google runs one of (if not the #1) biggest systems in the world on Linux - with in-house proprietary programs on top of it.  They seem to have the requisite stability and reliabiltiy.

[prometheus]

What I mean by life cycle is the patch & revision history and documentation of all changes performed to the applications, as well as certification that those changes are what they are advertised to be, and are beneficial.

That's just not available with open source, by its very nature.

Each year, my IT systems must pass audits for:

Sarbannes-Oxley
Visa MasterCard PCI (Payment Card Industry Standards)
SAS-70
Internal IT Security Audit
External IT security Audit

We are considering ISO as well.

At least in the United States, the post-Enron business environment is a maze of regulations and audits that companies must adhere to and perform.  This will either drive open-source software into "closed source" versions, like some of the different flavors of Linux that are maintained by specific vendors (complete with patches), or the audit requirements will keep open source out of most companies.

In other words, the "no open source, period" stance is based purely on bureaucracy and accountability and not on what works better and cost less, right?

As are a good 80% of business decisions made in the US.  Keep in mind, if I have 5000 employees who use MS Office, it will cost me about a million dollars to put Office on each of their computers.  If I cannot pass an audit because those employees use open source office to view credit card sales records, then I could be fined and I WILL lose contracts to firms who do have the certifications and auditor check-offs. 

In that case, I did the equalavelent of saving $20 on a tank of cheap gas today,  that is going to burn my motor up sometime tomorrow.

That definitely sounds like a problem with bureacracy to me as opposed to a problem with Open Office...

[Sarek]

I suspect that much of it is the "no one ever got fired for buying IBM" mind set.  We've found that Sarbanes-Oxley doesn't prevent us from using shoddy business practices as long as you document everything.  All the auditors want is for you to be able to produce a paper trail showing that you are following an established procedure.

[Dracho]

I suspect that much of it is the "no one ever got fired for buying IBM" mind set.  We've found that Sarbanes-Oxley doesn't prevent us from using shoddy business practices as long as you document everything.  All the auditors want is for you to be able to produce a paper trail showing that you are following an established procedure.

SoX 404 is a pain in the ass.  Visa & MasterCard's PCI standards are a freaking nightmare.  We considered flipping them the finger and going to cash-only, but 60% of our revenue is processed with a Visa or MasterCard, so we had little choice but accept their strandards.