Topic: Ancient Archimedes' Death Ray worked!

[Stormbringer]

Screw mythbusters read what happened!

http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20051022175909990001&ncid=NWS00010000000001


Teams Try to Recreate Ancient Greek Death Ray
By RON HARRIS, AP

SAN FRANCISCO (Oct. 22) - It wasn't exactly the ancient siege of Syracuse, but rather a curious quest for scientific validation.

According to sparse historical writings, the Greek mathematician Archimedes torched a fleet of invading Roman ships by reflecting the sun's powerful rays with a mirrored device made of glass or bronze.

   
 
Bettman, Corbis
This illustration shows the burning mirror purportedly developed by Archimedes in 214 B.C.

Talk About It: Post Thoughts   
   

More than 2,000 years later, researchers from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and the University of Arizona set out to recreate Archimedes' fabled death ray Saturday in an experiment sponsored by the Discovery Channel program "MythBusters.''

Their attempts to set fire to an 80-year-old fishing boat using their own versions of the device, however, failed to either prove or dispel the myth of the solar death ray.

The MIT team's first attempt with their contraption made of 300 square feet of bronze and glass failed to ignite a fire from 150 feet away. It produced smoldering on the boat's wooden surface but no open flame. A second attempt from about 75 feet away lit only a small fire that burned itself out.

Mike Bushroe of the University of Arizona's Lunar and Planetary Laboratory tried a mirrored system shaped like flower petals, but it failed to produce either smoke or flames.

Peter Rees, executive producer of "MythBusters,'' said the experiment showed Archimedes' death ray was most likely a myth.

"We're not saying it can't be done,'' Rees said. "We're just saying it's extremely impractical as a weapon of war.''

The experiment showed it may be technically possible, but didn't answer whether Archimedes used it to destroy enemy ships, MIT professor David Wallace said.

"Who can say whether Archimedes did it or not?'' he said. "He's one of the great mathematical minds in history. I wouldn't want to underestimate his intelligence or ability.''

Historical text describes Archimedes defeating a Roman fleet using the ray.

In "Epitome ton Istorion,'' John Zonaras wrote: "At last in an incredible manner he burned up the whole Roman fleet. For by tilting a kind of mirror toward the sun he concentrated the sun's beam upon it; and owing to the thickness and smoothness of the mirror he ignited the air from this beam and kindled a great flame, the whole of which he directed upon the ships that lay at anchor in the path of the fire, until he consumed them all.''

"MythBusters'' also tried to recreate the ray last year, and after failing, declared the story a myth.

"If this weapon had worked, it would have been the equivalent of a nuclear weapon in the ancient world,'' Rees said.


10/22/05 20:06 EDT

[prometheus]

It would just have meant that Naval War, like certain other human activities, would have taken place at night time...

[Stormbringer]

Historians, archaeologists and others have incorrectly dismissed ancient greek historical acounts as mythical before...

[Nemesis]

Historians, archaeologists and others have incorrectly dismissed ancient greek historical acounts as mythical before...

Like Troy

[Dracho]

The mythbusters recreation may not have accounted for the tar, pitch, and Greek fire likely aboard the vessels.  If it made the deck smoke, imagine if it were a real old trireme with tar or barrels of napthla lying about.

[Stormbringer]

I've seen a few mythbuster shows that were complete BS but all in all i like them anyway.

[Nemesis]

I've seen a few mythbuster shows that were complete BS but all in all i like them anyway.

I've seen a very few myself and I was able to see at options that they missed. 

One was the "myth" of the "ice bullet".  They went outside ice itself to other materials (frozen meat for example) that would not be noticed in a corpse.  They did not consider using a fragment of bone.  Just as another piece of "meat" would not be noticed in a corpse neither would another bone fragment.

They are talented but limited in some ways.  From what I saw there were only 4 of them and their backgrounds were not diverse enough.  They need input from a wider base on testing methods.  Perhaps a forum like this.

[Dracho]

They also did not try glacial ice with the super-density of thousands of years of having the air compressed out.  That stuff is as hard as iron.

[Nemesis]

They also did not try glacial ice with the super-density of thousands of years of having the air compressed out.  That stuff is as hard as iron.

As I said 

They are talented but limited in some ways.  From what I saw there were only 4 of them and their backgrounds were not diverse enough.  They need input from a wider base on testing methods. Perhaps a forum like this.

 

You have just proven my point.  Thanks.

[Dracho]

Ohh.. that would make a great CSI episode.  They find a body with a big hole in the chest cavity and no other evidence.  Autopsy finds strange worm-like parasites no thicker than a human hair  in the chest cavity than cannot be readily identified.

By the end of the show it's discovered they are ice worms (yes, there is such a thing) and the team figures out a bullet fashioned of glacial ice was used, and some associate of the victim had recently been to Alaska.   

[Sirgod]

I saw that Episode of Mythbusters. There first problem was Having the people hold the mirrors, so they couldn't Focus the light at 100%. There next Experiment had a built in Base for the mirrors, But even then They used a wooden Frame. The wieght of It alone would have caused a major problem with the distribution of heat/light.

stephen

[Elvis]

Damn!!! I was just reading about this, beat me to it by a couple of days. But I do have a good link with descriptions and pictures of a further study done by MiT students and professors.

http://physics.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://web.mit.edu/2.009/www/lectures/10%5FArchimedesResult.html

Very cool indeed.

[Dracho]

+1 Elvis, just because that was way cool.

[Death_Merchant]

They are talented but limited in some ways.  From what I saw there were only 4 of them and their backgrounds were not diverse enough.  They need input from a wider base on testing methods.  Perhaps a forum like this.

What makes you think the show doesn't hire engineering consultants?

Many do.....

BTW: I seriously doubt this story
1) As stated in the article, such a success would have been like a nuke in the ancient world. And no one replicates it ever again??
2) Think of the exposure time required to ignite. Now add in the obvious countermeasure: One guy on the boat with a bucket of water.....

If I were on an attacking fleet, poised to assault Archimedes and his weapon, I might indeed pause....
If only to wipe the tears of laughter from my eyes....

[Dracho]

Likely, if it happened, he set the sails afire or some such.

[Death_Merchant]

Likely, if it happened, he set the sails afire or some such.

The ships likely had no unfurled sails. The wood or something else on the ship would need be ignited.

[Dracho]

Likely, if it happened, he set the sails afire or some such.

The ships had no sails. The wood or something else on the ship would need be inginted.

Hmm.. maybe I am thinking about a longship or something, but I thought a bireme and a trireme had a single mast & sail in addition to the oars.

[Death_Merchant]

Likely, if it happened, he set the sails afire or some such.

The ships had no sails. The wood or something else on the ship would need be inginted.

Hmm.. maybe I am thinking about a longship or something, but I thought a bireme and a trireme had a single mast & sail in addition to the oars.

Dracho, you caught me late at night and sloppy....
Check my correction.... and my spelling sucked too....

[Dracho]

Yeah.. I just wonder how much more difficult it is to find non-flame retardant materials these days to simulate the tests.  Even if the sails were not unfurled, they were likely of some natural, highly flammable material, and the planks were probably made water-tight with tar & pitch.

I just suspect we no longer appreciate how flammable those old vessels truly were.  If they had Greek fire , or even vats of oil aboard.. lookout.

[Chris Johnson]

I figured it could be possible, but the weather should be perfectly on your side (sunny skies, warm weather, calm seas) and dumb commanders on the side of the enemy (ideally Captain Keogh of the doomed U.S.S. Odyssey who didn't choose to use the manuverability of a Galaxy-class Starship) so the ships stay stationary, and trained men on your side to keep 'em steady.  If your boat rocks, assuming the weapon is on a boat and not on land, then hope those men are perfect in adjusting so the light on the enemy ship appears as if it wasn't moving in conjunction with the rocking boat.  But more likely the opposing ships will move and weather won't always be on your side.

Basically, if you eliminate factors of weather and strategy, you have a possible chance of using it as a weapon.  Otherwise, good luck with real life battles using that weapon in Greek times.  I'm sure mother nature wouldn't pick sides for anyone in war.  Except maybe that time when the Japanese prayed and that divine wind "knocked the wind out" of the Mongolian army, plus maybe one or two more situations.

[Dracho]

Don't forget the storm that wrecked the Spanish Armada.  That was a turning point in world history.

[J. Carney]

Ancient man doesn't mean primative man.

If a bunch of hung-over students at a college can jump into action and create something that works this well on short notice... well, I wonder what Archimedes could have done with custom-built material and plenty of time and backing.


Death Merchant:

Roman ships MOST CERTIANLY had sails (usually one per ship, large and square), and they were made of highly flamible materials. They were also, as Dracho has already said, waterproofed with HIGHLY flammable materials like pitch and tar.

Anything that would set a ship afire was a danger that would drive the crew to distraction... remember, little clay pots of greek fire hurrled by men at close quarters were considered dangerous.

[Nemesis]

What makes you think the show doesn't hire engineering consultants?

I've only seen a few episodes and in one of them they did bring in an outside consultant (killed by thrown card episode - concluded it was an urban legend).  That episode they made a big thing over having consulted with him so I would assume that normally they would refer to those consultants as being the source of the various suggestions as they did in that episode.  The other episodes that I saw they always referred to the various ideas tested as being suggested by one or another of the 4 regulars.  That is why (pending further evidence) I am assuming that most of the ideas for how to test are from those four people.  Yes it is possible that they are just "front men" for a think tank of some sort that is paid to be anonymous.

[Nemesis]

BTW: I seriously doubt this story
1) As stated in the article, such a success would have been like a nuke in the ancient world. And no one replicates it ever again??
2) Think of the exposure time required to ignite. Now add in the obvious countermeasure: One guy on the boat with a bucket of water.....

If I were on an attacking fleet, poised to assault Archimedes and his weapon, I might indeed pause....
If only to wipe the tears of laughter from my eyes....

1/ The science of optics had not yet been discovered (unless Archimedes was the discoverer and it was lost with him).  How and why it worked (if it actually did) would be incomprehensible to others without that basic knowledge.  Archimedes was killed in that war.

2/ Assume that it worked.  As emperor of Rome which would you rather do:
  a/ keep it knowing spies would duplicate it and use it against you
or
  b/ destroy it and try to suppress knowledge of it?

Rome was the mightiest empire of its time they had no need of the "death ray" and much to fear from it if it became widespread. 

As an example of the Empire suppressing things.  Rome  (the city) had a fire department.  Other cities wanted to form them but were forbidden.  The fire department in Rome being a para military organization had been involved in various plots and potential rebellions.  The last thing the Emperors wanted was more such organizations out in the provinces with Little or no supervision to keep them in line.

There is also a legend of an inventor bringing to the Emperor the secret of "unbreakable glass" he wanted an Imperial Monopoly and was willing to share half the profits with the Emperor.  Immediately upon being told that the secret was currently limited to the inventor and no one else the Emperor had him executed.  Unbreakable glass would have thrown thousands out of work and the Empire couldn't afford the resulting unrest.   Is this legend true?  Likely not.  But it does illustrate the principle that stability and security of the empire was more important than any secret weapon.

[Dracho]

The Roman commander that sacked Syracuse was given explicit orders to bring Archemedes back to Rome alive.  According to legend, a legionaire unknowingly slashed him to death as he was drawing in the sand.

[Death_Merchant]

Bottom Line Gents: It's cool to think this is true, but there is no solid proof.

I choose to doubt unless proven true.

As to outside, unreferenced consultants having been used: I've said all I will. Believe or don't

"Reality TV" is far from it.
Take the Osbournes for example. This is how an episode is constructed:
1) The show uses interns to examine hours of raw footage, recording time of day, room of house, participants, basic conversation
2) Show writers brainstorm plot ideas
3) Video clips are pulled to splice together "What happened"

So, a given aired conversation may really be comprised of things that happened Monday, Wednesday, and Sunday.
BTW: It's quite sad how much footage must be viewed to find Ozzy saying something coherent.

Real bottom line: These shows are entertainment, nothing more.