Topic: Sigh (Read 5962 times)

Braxton_RIP · « **on:** October 09, 2005, 07:30:48 pm »

You guessed it.... crashed again.

KAT Chuut-Ritt · « **Reply #1 on:** October 09, 2005, 08:25:35 pm »

up currently.

Farfarer · « **Reply #2 on:** October 10, 2005, 07:38:31 am »

Down 0939 AST Monday

Bonk · « **Reply #3 on:** October 10, 2005, 08:49:19 am »

So, as I expected, it is not the # of missions per move setting.

We still need to remove the EEK missions and serverside donors
so software firewall users wil not crash the server on failing
to receive mission AI. (every mission script is a separate executable
from StarFleetOP.exe, which also depend on the directplay helper)

This will also keep the db clean.

It is the only way to go. Its a shame people insist on using
software firewalls. That is the only explanation I have, as these
missions work perfectly for me.

I will check in later today to see if we have an agreed course
of action.

Farfarer · « **Reply #4 on:** October 10, 2005, 09:19:10 am »

By a software firewall do you mean Norton etc. ? My Macafee asked my if I wanted to allow OP and there were no problems - my AI show up all the time. Are there firewalls that stop the Missions? Why would you run such a thing - at least more than once?

Bonk · « **Reply #5 on:** October 10, 2005, 09:50:09 am »

By software firewall, I mean any software firewall, regardless of the producer. Just do not use them. Have you given every executable mission script explicit permissions in your software firewall? Have you given the directply helper the necessary permissions? Even if you have how do you know it actually works? I have proven to myself beyond any doubt,. in applications outside of SFC as well, that software firewalls simply cannot be trusted.

Also, we'll need to pull the new TG scripts as they are affected as well. We can use the ones she made for DH's shiplists and they should work, but that would require a download.

el-Karnak · « **Reply #6 on:** October 10, 2005, 09:52:16 am »

Quote from: Bonk on October 10, 2005, 08:49:19 am

We still need to remove the EEK missions and serverside donors
so software firewall users wil not crash the server on failing
to receive mission AI. (every mission script is a separate executable
from StarFleetOP.exe, which also depend on the directplay helper)

It's better to tell people to just shut off their software firewalls in the campaign rules. Most people have to do this just to play PvP anyway.

This game is just too limited in functionality without all the EEK stuff in there. One reason I am not doing any new EEK mission stuff is that I am still waiting for the Server Kit functionality to catch up and be fixed. There's no point in doing new stuff until the Server kit is brought up to date.

Where's my fixed SQL Server kit, BTW?

Bonk · « **Reply #7 on:** October 10, 2005, 09:56:35 am »

I agree, but poeple are just too paranoid and the firewalls cannot be detected.

Re SQL: We'll never know until we can get players to show up for a stock test. Note that this flatfile server is crashing as much if not more than the SQL server we ran; i.e. SQL was not the problem something else was. More and more I think it is the players with software firewalls who do not show up for testing. If they will not turn them off then we're forever stuck on the DH model server (not that its that bad, just limiting).

Dizzy · « **Reply #8 on:** October 10, 2005, 10:01:23 am »

Server status thread , my reply: http://www.dynaverse.net/forum/index.php/topic,163361071.msg1122635959.html#msg1122635959

el-Karnak · « **Reply #9 on:** October 10, 2005, 11:53:59 am »

Quote from: Bonk on October 10, 2005, 09:56:35 am

I agree, but poeple are just too paranoid and the firewalls cannot be detected.

Re SQL: We'll never know until we can get players to show up for a stock test. Note that this flatfile server is crashing as much if not more than the SQL server we ran; i.e. SQL was not the problem something else was. More and more I think it is the players with software firewalls who do not show up for testing. If they will not turn them off then we're forever stuck on the DH model server (not that its that bad, just limiting).

I'm not buying the software firewall argument cuz EEK worked just fine on SS2 and SG3 and they had much less complicated donor-less shiplists; and, there were a lot more people on those dynas than what are on SG5. The evidence appears to be pointed at the donor shiplists used in conjuction with certain mission types causing server issues.

Just don't use donor shiplists. For server robustness reasons, I am never a big fan of trying to do things that are way off the Taldren norm. The game was built with Gorn, Rom and Lyrans as the only PF races. The envelope was pushed and it does not look like it's going work out. So, just stick with using the Empire races slots of Gorn, Rom and Lyran for PF carrying sides.

I certainly won't need donor shiplists for Andro Invasion servers. Never want to sacrifice server robustness for it when I can just use an empire race slot for Andros and still keep all the EEK stuff. I am going to use the Roms as the Andros race slot since all the bonafide Rom players are gone. More mission variety is what the servers badly need.

FPF-DieHard · « **Reply #10 on:** October 10, 2005, 12:00:29 pm »

You can make the donor shiplist work, I've a few more tricks up my sleeve

el-Karnak · « **Reply #11 on:** October 10, 2005, 12:06:22 pm »

Quote from: FPF-DieHard on October 10, 2005, 12:00:29 pm

You can make the donor shiplist work, I've a few more tricks up my sleeve

Well, OK. But, if it does not work out (ie. make it through a production dyna) then I am just gonna pick and choose what I like and put them in a Gorn/Rom/Lyran race slot. In fact, to stop all the potential future arguments, I may do it anyway so I know that the EEK missions have a stable shiplist to work with. Something, they have not had since GW2, I think.

KBF-Soth · « **Reply #12 on:** October 10, 2005, 06:40:56 pm »

Except for getting my arse kicked in under 3 min in alien invasion I haven't had any problems with any missions.I've only had 4-5 host left all server.

KBFLordKrueg · « **Reply #13 on:** October 10, 2005, 06:55:39 pm »

Same here...Even last night when most of the players would suddenly drop, I never did...have only seen Host left a couple times, and only in missions with 3-5 players at once.

Capt_Bearslayer_XC · « **Reply #14 on:** October 10, 2005, 07:31:11 pm »

As Krueg can verify from last night, I was one who didn't drop also.

And I have been running Zone Alarm for about 6-7 years now

Wraith 413 · « **Reply #15 on:** October 10, 2005, 11:22:48 pm »

I never had a problem before with running Zone Alarm at the "Medium" setting during SG3 or 4, I was able to draft and be drafted. It wasn't until the last 2 servers, counting SG5, that I have had problems drafting. Of course, I was playing on GSA alot back then, maybe a setting I used there has an influence on these latter servers.

Wraith 413

Bonk · « **Reply #16 on:** October 11, 2005, 06:45:32 am »

Quote from: Wraith 413 on October 10, 2005, 11:22:48 pm

I never had a problem before with running Zone Alarm at the "Medium" setting during SG3 or 4, I was able to draft and be drafted. It wasn't until the last 2 servers, counting SG5, that I have had problems drafting. Of course, I was playing on GSA alot back then, maybe a setting I used there has an influence on these latter servers.

Wraith 413

ZoneAlarm cannot be trusted to work consistently. Period.

Also, it provides you with a false sense of security.

Wraith 413 · « **Reply #17 on:** October 11, 2005, 11:46:13 am »

So you're saying only a hardware firewall is secure?

Wraith 413

Braxton_RIP · « **Reply #18 on:** October 11, 2005, 12:59:11 pm »

Haha. Don't even start saying how software firewalls are insecure, because I have seen software firewalls that will out perform any hardware firewall. All I use are software firewalls, I never shut them down, and I haven't had a problem playing OP, SFC3, NWN, BF2, WOW, and the multitude of other games I find time for.

Bonk · « **Reply #19 on:** October 12, 2005, 08:37:03 am »

Quote from: Braxton on October 11, 2005, 12:59:11 pm

Haha. Don't even start saying how software firewalls are insecure, because I have seen software firewalls that will out perform any hardware firewall. All I use are software firewalls, I never shut them down, and I haven't had a problem playing OP, SFC3, NWN, BF2, WOW, and the multitude of other games I find time for.

Do you experience lag and player drops in SFC missions?

Are you running the windows firewall and Zonealarm simultaneously?

Have you ever tried to run a reliable server behind said firewalls?

Software firewalls are highly unreliable. A router and secure OS setup are far more reliable.

Also, stay off the porn sites and you'll find your machine the subject of way fewer attack attempts...

Bonk · « **Reply #20 on:** October 12, 2005, 08:49:58 am »

Quote from: Wraith 413 on October 11, 2005, 11:46:13 am

So you're saying only a hardware firewall is secure?

Wraith 413

No there is no guarantee of security from any firewall. I'm just saying software firewalls are unreliable and unpredicatable and can only serve to introduce problems. Software firewalls are for the most part drivers that emulate another network adapter and implement a NAT solution to filter IP traffic. This can only introduce lag and is not nearly as reliable as the proven solution of the hardware equivalent of dual network adapters on a router running VXworks or a *nix box serving as a NAT gateway.

Bonk · « **Reply #21 on:** October 12, 2005, 08:51:15 am »

Just try it and see... see if you can get several players in a D2 mission who are absolutely sure they have no software firewalls running. Make sure no players with software firewalls are present. I guarantee that mission stability can only improve. I know this from years of experience.

Hexx · « **Reply #22 on:** October 12, 2005, 08:52:39 am »

Quote from: Bonk on October 12, 2005, 08:37:03 am

.

Also, stay off the porn sites and you'll find your machine the subject of way fewer attack attempts...

Yeah, but the price would be too high...

Bonk · « **Reply #23 on:** October 12, 2005, 08:54:44 am »

Quote from: Hexx on October 12, 2005, 08:52:39 am

Quote from: Bonk on October 12, 2005, 08:37:03 am

.

Also, stay off the porn sites and you'll find your machine the subject of way fewer attack attempts...

Yeah, but the price would be too high...

Huh? Price? What price?

"Teleport pro" <--- I did not reccomend this

Dizzy · « **Reply #24 on:** October 12, 2005, 09:27:28 am »

Well, I dunno how it happened, but my firewall got turned on, by itself mb. I was able to connect with hex on Co-ops fine last night, but whenever we did a PvP, I crashed out... and Hexx loaded alone and was horribly raped.

I turned it off and logged in and no more crashes. Cant figure out when it turned on. Mb I did a reboot?

But Bonks mb right, my firewall blocked some connections from some peeps and not others.

Bonk · « **Reply #25 on:** October 12, 2005, 09:59:52 am »

Quote from: Dizzy on October 12, 2005, 09:27:28 am

But Bonks mb right, my firewall blocked some connections from some peeps and not others.

Halle-frickin-lujah! See the light! I have seen this plenty of times. Do people think I make this stuff up just for kicks? Sheesh...

Bonk · « **Reply #26 on:** October 12, 2005, 10:10:13 am »

Someday I would love to see a D2 server where nobody logs in with a software firewall, The db will stay clean because missions will not drop, the server will be more stable because its netcode will not get unexpected weirdness. I'd especially like to see it on a stock MySQL test.

The trick is that once installed, most users have trouble completely disabilng software firewalls. The current firewall detector server on the directory server cannot detect software firewalls that are configured to allow the exe. I would like to see the firewall detector modified to be more sophiticated and deny logins from such clients. I suspect the directplay test host in SFC3 was motivated by this and is a step in the right direction.

Bonk · « **Reply #27 on:** October 12, 2005, 11:49:49 am »

OK, so maybe the # missions per move setting did destabilise the server... sometimes I just have to learn things the hard way I guess. I can be rather bullheaded. My firewall comments stand however.

It is nice to see that this shiplist donation structure allows the use of EEK missions.

FA Frey XC · « **Reply #28 on:** October 12, 2005, 03:51:41 pm »

Here's another hint:

If you are running Windows XP SP2:

If you go into Control Panel, Administrative Tools, Computer Management, Services

and look up the service " Windows Firewall / Internet Connection Sharing" service.

Set this to "Disabled", and you will NEVER have to worry about Window's built in firewall starting up un-expectedly.

Bottom line, Virus's cannot do NAT. Period. Hackers probing external IP addresses will not be able to get into your machine unless your Router is a complete POS and you're in the DMZ. Even so, taking some simple precautions like setting up the internal subnet to be a non-standard range like 192.168.25.X instead of the default 192.168.0.X can really do the trick.

Software firewalls are there because people don't want to learn the proper and safe methods of surfing the web and opening email.

Nothing more, nothing less.

Braxton_RIP · « **Reply #29 on:** October 12, 2005, 07:34:18 pm »

Quote from: Bonk on October 12, 2005, 08:37:03 am

Quote from: Braxton on October 11, 2005, 12:59:11 pm
Haha. Don't even start saying how software firewalls are insecure, because I have seen software firewalls that will out perform any hardware firewall. All I use are software firewalls, I never shut them down, and I haven't had a problem playing OP, SFC3, NWN, BF2, WOW, and the multitude of other games I find time for.

Do you experience lag and player drops in SFC missions?

Are you running the windows firewall and Zonealarm simultaneously?

Have you ever tried to run a reliable server behind said firewalls?

Software firewalls are highly unreliable. A router and secure OS setup are far more reliable.

Also, stay off the porn sites and you'll find your machine the subject of way fewer attack attempts...

Rarely.

Zonealarm is, not to sound big or anything, a little below the protection I need on a machine.

Currently servers: MS SourceSafe 6, TS, VPN. In the past I have run OP/SFC3 servers as well as NWN, BF1942/Viet./2, AoE I/II, Empire Earth, as well as any other games.

Unreliable is an oppinion

Hardware firewalls are very open to attack if you know how. That is something I won't get into here though, don't need people knowing how to bug hardware.

Bonk · « **Reply #30 on:** October 12, 2005, 08:20:21 pm »

BlackIce has also given me unpredictable results with OP.

Please do not encourage people to use software firewalls while playing OP. I'm begging you here. I know for a fact that they are bad for OP. That is not an opinion.

If your machine is holding invaluable intellectual property or something that will get you in trouble, then just use another computer to play OP from where you will not require a software firewall. Does that sound like a reasonable solution?

Again, please do not encourage the use of software firewalls with OP, it is just a bad idea.

Think about the drafting, mission and server stability before software firewalls became common...

If you absolutely refuse to believe it then I guess we'll have to do an experiment to prove it, if we can only get people over the paranoia.... A firewall may show dozens of hits but the vast majority of them are harmless whether you have a firewall up or not, as long as your OS is secure.

Software firewalls are bad for networks, period. Please do not encourage their use with OP, thank you.

Braxton_RIP · « **Reply #31 on:** October 12, 2005, 10:05:00 pm »

Someone really needs to calm down and realize we are talking about a game here. I'm not "encouraging" people to use a software firewall, I am just saying that you shouldn't just openly go and denounce them as some useless piece of trash, because they arn't. I don't keep anything but a select few work files on my computer, but having been in the Air Force in SAC, knowing the things I do, you had better believe that I am going to firewall myself till kingdom come.

Lets put it this way. My wife is working for a bank now, in the wealth management department. Somehow, she got the account of the creator of VeriSign (If you don't know what that is, it is the program that runs the most of the security protocols on the net). Anyway, this guy is a genious when it comes to computers, yet he won't even let the bank put his data onto their system electronically. If the guy who invented the security won't trust it, why should I?

You really do need to calm down a little bit though, because your really taking what I am saying over the top, which has is never a good thing.

Dizzy · « **Reply #32 on:** October 12, 2005, 10:13:44 pm »

Change thre title of this thread to firewall flame... or something.

p81 logged on tonight and soreyes and I couldnt draft him. He said he had a built in foirewall he couldnt turn off. How do we get it fixed?

Bonk · « **Reply #33 on:** October 13, 2005, 01:01:04 pm »

Um, whatever, sure, feel superior, talk down to me, whatever makes you feel better.

VeriSign cannot be trusted, they tried to undermine the public DNS system. Only Entrust can be trusted. Thawte signs malware regularly.

Software firewalls are still bad for OP dynaverse servers. That is all I am trying to say.

I am calm, but you're tone is beginning to offend me. Understand?

I am not taking this over the top, I am saying software firewalls are bad for OP that is all.

I think you need to re-evaluate your attitude. I am beginning to wonder why you are so sensitive about this.

I think we need to make more sophisticated firewall detection a priority for the serverkit source project.

Braxton_RIP · « **Reply #34 on:** October 13, 2005, 01:53:51 pm »

Wow dude, ask anyone on the Alliance side and they will tell you I'm pretty layed back, don't know what your getting at, but you don't need to go off and immediately assume that I am trying to put you down. After this post, I am done with this subject, because I don't want to start yet another confilict in the world of D2.

What I don't understand is why you think I am "sensitive about this." Do you think I am a threat to you or something of that nature? Do you think I have a reason try an somehow undermine what your doing? Bonk, you have to realize who your talking to. I spend days online between campaigns on Amazon and ebay buying copies of OP and giving them to people saying "Here, this is for you. You don't have pay me for it, my repayment will be you playing it." I may not be like you, programming server kits, or Tracey writing missions, but, by God, at least recognize the fact that I am trying to help this community just as much as the next man. Hell, I have even stepped up and offered to help you and Tracey and whoever else wants it programming. So going off and blatantly saying that I am talking down to you is down right insulting. Insulting to the point it again brings me to wonder why I sit there doing the things I do for this game and this community. It makes me quite sad to see you say the thigs you did to me because telling me to re-evaluate my attitude when all I said was you shouldn't discount something as garbage just because of a bad experiance with ZoneAlarm.

As I said though. I am done with this. I am insulted at the way you make assumptions about what I am saying, and I leave the matter in your hands. I will say though that I will kindly revoke any offers to help out, this subject has shed light to the fact that I am not too welcome into the further development of our server-side projects.

Mog · « **Reply #35 on:** October 13, 2005, 02:12:46 pm »

Bonk, you really need to start toking again.

Bonk · « **Reply #36 on:** October 14, 2005, 06:01:57 am »

Quote from: Mog on October 13, 2005, 02:12:46 pm

Bonk, you really need to start toking again.

Not until I no longer have to run from and be exploited and opressed by those who would keep it illegal for their own self interest, profit and misguided morals. I must wage this war from a postion of strength, which will take at least a few years of going without, so that my message cannot be brushed off as that of a stoner. We will win, logic and love must prevail.

But we do wander way off topic...

Software firewalls are bad for dynaverse servers, regardless of what anyone says to the contrary, for whatever reasons. That is all.

News:

Topic: *Sigh* (Read 5962 times) var addthis_config = {"data_track_clickback":true};

el-Karnak

el-Karnak

el-Karnak

Topic: Sigh (Read 5962 times)