Topic: Poll for out next Flame War <Snicker>

[FPF-DieHard]

Let the flaming begin!

[Dizzy]

Yes they are cheese, but non-fat cheese.

[Hexx]

<sigh> Amateur wannabe flame starting pollsters..

Are they cheese compared to a CC? Yes
Compared to a CCH? Not really
Compared to a HDW? No

Now the fast Dreads are like mozarella & cheddar all rolled into one..

[Dfly]

Not real Cheese, more like processed.  Spreads great over smaller ships, but dies vs a lot of other stuff.

[762_XC]

No, they are Cheez Whiz.

[FPF-DieHard]

It is infinitely easier to kill somebody while flying an F-CF than it is flying an F-CC+. 

[Hexx]

It is infinitely easier to kill somebody while flying an F-CF than it is flying an F-CC+. 

Which is of course what I said.. what about a CB though?
CF's (imo) are pretty much obsolete with the CCH's
DNL's are competive all the way to X tech.

[FPF-DieHard]

It is infinitely easier to kill somebody while flying an F-CF than it is flying an F-CC+. 

Which is of course what I said.. what about a CB though?
CF's (imo) are pretty much obsolete with the CCH's
DNL's are competive all the way to X tech.

Not denying DNLs are cheese.

In the Case of the F-CF versus the F-CB, the F-CF still has some advantages, it depends on your fighting style and who you are flying against.   

[FPF-Wanderer]

<cough>OOB<cough>

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

I think it really depends on thefast cruiser in question and the foes for that server.  A gorn BF for example is not cheesy fighting vs the ISC, but would be vs the Kzin, until fast drones arrive.  A Klingon fast cruiser isn't really very cheesy vs the Kzin, but likely would be vs the Romulans.  The Lyran and the Kzinti fast cruisers aren't really cheesy vs anyone since no one would really fly them anyhow.  So kinda hard to cast a vote.

[Julin Eurthyr]

My take:

The whole concept of the fast cruiser is to remove 2 "heavy" weapons and replace them with 2 "lighter" phasers, and add more powerful / faster warp drives.

This results in a ship with a great powercurve (often better than the base hull's original powercurve), and the weapons to perform a specific tactic, ie, phaser-boat.

I've noticed the following trends / notes on the various CFs:

The Fed CF and Gorn BF (probably the I-CF, but it doesn't come out till after the Z-refits and practically on top of X-tech) ships all benefit immensely from the conversion.  They trade in multi-turn HWs for faster-firing phasers, and the improved powercurve allows them to fly faster / offset that maneuverability problem some.
The Lyran CF (whatever one it is) may benefit, since I've never studied it, I don't know if it loses ESGs for phasers or dizzies.  As I don't hear lots of stories / reports of this ship, I would tend to believe that the maulers are better choices for the typical Lyran.
Rommie Fasthawks, I've heard, are a mixed bag.  Being phaser-deficient to begin with, losing the heavy-hitting torps to get standard-CA level phaser suites doesn't make it a superior PvP boat, and with the dearth of dedicated Rommies the ship doesn't get a lot of air-time.  However, there's usually enough requests / use to show me that there's something there, if you know what you're doing...
Klinks could use their fast cruisers advantageously, I've heard they're up with the Fed / Gorn models.  Didn't the Fast-cruiser loving Gorns use them to great effect during the GW series of servers?  However, as "traditional" Klinks don't tend to use them, it sounds they fall under the "best limburger is the one nobody smells" effect.
The Hydran CF is another ship I don't hear a lot about.  Is it because they don't fly well under "typical" Hydran tactics (ie, they fly faster than their fighters, aren't great at the close-in smack like a fusion boat, and lose the long-range sniping from the hellbores), or are they just not-flied like Klink fast boats are?
Mirak CFs, and I agree with them, were built cheap.  They are the lowest BPVed CFs out there, like 20 BPV smaller than the next-smallest CF, and I completely disagree with the weapon choices (they lose drones, have chintzy dizzy arcs, and like Rommies don't really have the phasers to phaser-boat).  They do need some study / possible improvement (I'll have to see if the thread I discussed this with Fluf is still on SFC2.Net somewhere).

[FPF-Tobin Dax]

<cough>OOB<cough>

You should get that cough checked out before it develops into something. 

[FPF-DieHard]

11 to 5.   Interesting.

So the general concensus if I read this right is they are cheesy but just a little?

[Hexx]

11 to 5.   Interesting.

So the general concensus if I read this right is they are cheesy but just a little?

The consensus would be that & that you have no idea how to get a good flame war going.. 

[Hexx]

And- for the record- the Lyran CF isn't bad, I would suspect it's not used
because when it's out the CWLP- better turn mode,comparable power curve, better weapons suite, is available.
The CC+ also isn't that far behind the  CF, CF has 3 extra power (43-40) and replaces 2 dizzies with the FA Phasers, CC+ with 40 power is still a comparable ship.
Really I think the fed one is regarded as being "superior" as it gives the Feds a ship with an excellent power curve early on.

[Capt_Bearslayer_XC]

The Hydran CF is another ship I don't hear a lot about. Is it because they don't fly well under "typical" Hydran tactics (ie, they fly faster than their fighters, aren't great at the close-in smack like a fusion boat, and lose the long-range sniping from the hellbores), or are they just not-flied like Klink fast boats are?

The H-THR is pure shiite.

The H-RNF is more on the cheddar side.  Especially when it is packing Stinger-2's or better.

[FPF-DieHard]

The H-RNF is more on the cheddar side.  Especially when it is packing Stinger-2's or better.

We made this ont up without playtesting it.  Odds are it may be too much.

[Capt_Bearslayer_XC]

Oh, I can agree with that...only time I lost with one so far has been when an AI Z-MEC (AMD Cheese Wiz) chomped thru my 2 groups of Stinger2's in about 10 seconds.

Even with the loss of the fighters, if I had played a better game that time, I could have won.

[762_XC]

Meh, it still only has 4 Ph-1. Has anyone ever flown one against another CF?

Oh DH 

[FPF-Tobin Dax]

Oh, I can agree with that...only time I lost with one so far has been when an AI Z-MEC (AMD Cheese Wiz) chomped thru my 2 groups of Stinger2's in about 10 seconds.

Even with the loss of the fighters, if I had played a better game that time, I could have won.

never a good game from your opponent, just a bad game on your part...

[FPF-DieHard]

Meh, it still only has 4 Ph-1. Has anyone ever flown one against another CF?

Oh DH 

Please, in a 1v1 I'll own you so bad you'll be calling me "masse" and my name will be branded on your ass

[762_XC]

Doesn't take a lot of skill to use AMD.

[FPF-Tobin Dax]

Doesn't take a lot of skill to use AMD.

Skill like launching fighters huh?  The fighters had to be allowed get into range 2.99 of the AI MEC in the little 2 v 2 (1 AI each) Bear and I had. You know I am sick and tired of people who are such "good sports", that the only way they could have lost was they had a bad draw or played a bad game, or some other excuse. I didn't tell anyone that they they beat me only because I played a bad game or that I thought I got robbed with some other element of the game when I lost the ships that I did, but now with Bear, I have heard that on 3 out of my 6 kills, that my winning had nothing to do with me doing anything right, just them playing sub par. Pretty sad. 

[Hexx]

See?
I knew DH sucked at this stuff, 22 posts before a single rant show up.

90%+ of the time if you win, even if the other guys says he messed up- it was because you
were in a position to take advantage of him messing up.
In any event anyone using drones/fighters/amd/or PPD's has it easy and is a cheesy bastiche.

[762_XC]

Doesn't take a lot of skill to use AMD.

Skill like launching fighters huh?  The fighters had to be allowed get into range 2.99 of the AI MEC in the little 2 v 2 (1 AI each) Bear and I had. You know I am sick and tired of people who are such "good sports", that the only way they could have lost was they had a bad draw or played a bad game, or some other excuse. I didn't tell anyone that they they beat me only because I played a bad game or that I thought I got robbed with some other element of the game when I lost the ships that I did, but now with Bear, I have heard that on 3 out of my 6 kills, that my winning had nothing to do with me doing anything right, just them playing sub par. Pretty sad. 

What are you getting so pissed about? It was a cut and dry rock-paper-scissors battle. Bear brought paper and you brought scissors.

[FPF-Tobin Dax]

So much for RNF being cheese I guess.

[FPF-Tobin Dax]

Doesn't take a lot of skill to use AMD.

Skill like launching fighters huh?  The fighters had to be allowed get into range 2.99 of the AI MEC in the little 2 v 2 (1 AI each) Bear and I had. You know I am sick and tired of people who are such "good sports", that the only way they could have lost was they had a bad draw or played a bad game, or some other excuse. I didn't tell anyone that they they beat me only because I played a bad game or that I thought I got robbed with some other element of the game when I lost the ships that I did, but now with Bear, I have heard that on 3 out of my 6 kills, that my winning had nothing to do with me doing anything right, just them playing sub par. Pretty sad. 

What are you getting so pissed about? It was a cut and dry rock-paper-scissors battle. Bear brought paper and you brought scissors.

B.S. to that. Bear had no problem here in his kill post pasted below. That is an MEC there and he is fighting vs. 2 live players:

Let's add this...

Battle location: 16,26
Battle Participants:
F9thKirk Victory level: Devastating Defeat
Regular prestige: -150 Bonus prestige: 0
M9thRyker Victory level: Defeat
Regular prestige: 0 Bonus prestige: 0
Host: Bearslayer_XC Victory level: Astounding Victory
Regular prestige: 1200 Bonus prestige: 360
Empire Defence value shift: 4-->4
Cartel Defence value shift: 5-->5
Battle finished at: 2005-10-02 15:17:36

My H-RNF captured Kirk's Z-MEC and chased off Ryker's Z-CD+m

so, so much for rock, paper, scissors, or paper beats scissors?...   

[762_XC]

Um, Kirk is a n00b.

[Capt_Bearslayer_XC]

Oh, I can agree with that...only time I lost with one so far has been when an AI Z-MEC (AMD Cheese Wiz) chomped thru my 2 groups of Stinger2's in about 10 seconds.

Even with the loss of the fighters, if I had played a better game that time, I could have won.

never a good game from your opponent, just a bad game on your part...

Is there anything you don't take offense to?

Or would like to go on rant about pushing people over the border now?

I didn't play my best game.  I made mistakes and would be fooling MYSELF if I didn't admit it.

The ship classes were compareable, but I was not the better captain that game.

As it usually comes down to, the one who makes the least mistakes win.

I did not do that, you did.  You played the better game.

[Capt_Bearslayer_XC]

Um, Kirk is a n00b.

Yep... he used all of his Marines in hit & runs.... I noticed him at 2 marines, so I waited for him to hit me again and beamed 2 aboard.  Saw he had one left, when he sent that last marine, 2 more of mine joined his ship to help take over.

He made a n00b mistake just as many of the GSA crowd did when they came to GW2 when I captured 5 or 6 K-D5D's in a two week period.

[Hexx]

Um, Kirk is a n00b.

He made a n00b mistake just as many of the GSA crowd did when they came to GW2 when I captured 5 or 6 K-D5D's in a two week period.

Or like t00l did .
You know, when I captured him
It was funny.
Don't forget that.

[762_XC]

You had a marine ship.

Bear had two transporters.

BIG difference! 

[Dfly]

in the end, you were both taken. 

[Braxton_RIP]

Yea, you will have to forgive some of the 9th guys of a few mistakes.... they are SFC3 players and haven't ever dealt with things like ECM and marines.....  I consistantly rape them in training with PPD to try and get the point across that they need to pay more attention to the systems on their own ship than attempting to alpha strike me..... so far, a couple have learned, but some are still ignorant space dust which has just been degraded from a F-BBV 

[762_XC]

I am glad to see these guys around Brax. Tell them if they ever want training to post in here and we'll set something up.

Wouldn't be the first time.

[Dfly]

quite a few of us partake in practice sessions, and many of us have quite a bit of experience.  It is not just the uninitiated that can use the practice.

[762_XC]

It's funny, we usually get 1 n00b and about 5 or 6 veterans for these sessions. 

You could say we have a good faculty to student ratio.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

It's funny, we usually get 1 n00b and about 5 or 6 veterans for these sessions. 

You could say we have a good faculty to student ratio.

Well look at it this way t00l, with those numbers you will graduate at the top of your class!

<Snicker>

[762_XC]

Ha! I'd like to see you show up for some "lessons", furball.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Ha! I'd like to see you show up for some "lessons", furball.

Maybe I'll join later on in the course God knows I could use some improvement, however I think I can safely pass on Lesson #1:  How not to be death dragged by a Mirak DF and Lesson #2: How not to be captured by Hexx......but I'm sure some of the later lessons might prove very good education 

<Double Snicker>

[Father Ted]

The Hydran CF is another ship I don't hear a lot about. Is it because they don't fly well under "typical" Hydran tactics (ie, they fly faster than their fighters, aren't great at the close-in smack like a fusion boat, and lose the long-range sniping from the hellbores), or are they just not-flied like Klink fast boats are?

The H-THR is pure shiite.

The H-RNF is more on the cheddar side.  Especially when it is packing Stinger-2's or better.

Am I the only person who likes the THR? OL the hellbores and fly it like a Rom in a plasma ballet. 

[FPF-DieHard]

The Hydran CF is another ship I don't hear a lot about. Is it because they don't fly well under "typical" Hydran tactics (ie, they fly faster than their fighters, aren't great at the close-in smack like a fusion boat, and lose the long-range sniping from the hellbores), or are they just not-flied like Klink fast boats are?

The H-THR is pure shiite.

The H-RNF is more on the cheddar side.  Especially when it is packing Stinger-2's or better.

Am I the only person who likes the THR? OL the hellbores and fly it like a Rom in a plasma ballet. 

Kim Rolling was a TERROR in the THR on GW2.

[KBF-Soth]

RNF way better than THR, if it had say 2 groups of 2 fighters it would be better than 1 group of 3.
Rom CF good ship but the mauler with 2 F torps(CA) better
ISC CF *shrugs* better ships to play with
Kling just a good ship for the year at the time of release though great for a wing later
Gorn CF gave me fits pound the crap out of it and it keeps comin back
Mirak-never flown it can't say I've seen it as ai either actually

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Mirak-never flown it can't say I've seen it as ai either actually

Even the ai knows better than to fly our fast cruisers 

[762_XC]

The THR makes no sense to me. It's a fast cruiser with an identity crisis. It's not really crunchy enough to do an overrun, and doesn't have enough long-range weapons to do anything else.

Father Ted will have to teach me how to fly it some day. 

The RNF is at least crunchy enough to keep someone's rear pointed towards you so you can phaser boat.

[Corbomite]

The I-CF is the best CF out there... seeing as how it really is a BCH in disguise.