Topic: Van Den Broek's alcubierre metric variant warp space configuration  (Read 48856 times)

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Offline prometheus

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Re: Van Den Broek's alcubierre metric variant warp space configuration
« Reply #120 on: October 29, 2005, 04:31:39 am »
Are you referring to this?

"According to the theory the total zero point energy in the vacuum is infinite when summed over all the possible photon modes.  The Casimir effect comes from a difference of energies in which the infinities cancel.  The energy of the vacuum is a puzzle in theories of quantum gravity since it should act gravitationally and produce a large cosmological constant which would cause space-time to curl up.  The solution to the inconsistency is expected to be found in a theory of quantum gravity."

I'm not sure how that proves the existance of negative energy, it only proves that our models of spacetime are incomplete...


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Offline Stormbringer

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Re: Van Den Broek's alcubierre metric variant warp space configuration
« Reply #121 on: October 29, 2005, 04:48:51 am »
No. When two plates are close enough together certain virtual particle modes are impossible between them while the virtual particle activity outside remains normal. This creates a energy difference between the interior and exterior region with a relatively negative energy density between the plates.The result is the plates are attracted to each other regardless of charge. The relative negative potential in between the plates acts in all ways like theoretical negative energy and could substitute for it in schemes that require negative mass or energy.

Offline Stormbringer

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Re: Van Den Broek's alcubierre metric variant warp space configuration
« Reply #122 on: October 29, 2005, 05:01:05 am »
The problem with the method is that the best metric for space warp requires 4 ounces of negative matter/energy. while that is considerably more practical than the older metrics that requires more negative mass than the sum total of the energy/mass in the universe it would require essentially an small atomic bomb's worth of (negative) energy. The analogy meant to invoke the amount of energy in four ounces of matter according to the equation E=MC^2. it would seem impossible to me to create a casimir apparatus that would both create a useable warp field and be small enough to be fitted onto a ship. (difficulty understated in the extreme.)
« Last Edit: October 29, 2005, 05:14:05 am by Stormbringer »

Offline prometheus

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Re: Van Den Broek's alcubierre metric variant warp space configuration
« Reply #123 on: October 29, 2005, 05:17:14 am »
No. When two plates are close enough together certain virtual particle modes are impossible between them while the virtual particle activity outside remains normal. This creates a energy difference between the interior and exterior region with a relatively negative energy density between the plates.The result is the plates are attracted to each other regardless of charge. The relative negative potential in between the plates acts in all ways like theoretical negative energy and could substitute for it in schemes that require negative mass or energy.

If I've read this correctly, the virtual modes between them are dependent on what virtual particles have an associated wavelength that would be equal to, or that would have integer multiples equal to the distance between the plates...  I still don't get why this is taken as proof of exotic forms of energy, it seems like standard Quantum Physics (if such a word can be applied to QM) to me... 

As a matter of fact, one of the banes of the life of a sound engineer is that sound wavelengths equal to or that have integer multiples equal to the distance between parallel surfaces in a room create standing waves, which is an analogus macroscopic phenomena...


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Offline prometheus

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Re: Van Den Broek's alcubierre metric variant warp space configuration
« Reply #124 on: October 29, 2005, 05:20:12 am »
The problem with the method is that the best metric for space warp requires 4 ounces of negative matter/energy. while that is considerably more practical than the older metrics that requires more negative mass than the sum total of the energy/mass in the universe it would require essentially an small atomic bomb's worth of (negative) energy. The analogy meant to invoke the amount of energy in four ounces of matter according to the equation E=MC^2. it would seem impossible to me to create a casimir apparatus that would both create a useable warp field and be small enough to be fitted onto a ship. (difficulty understated in the extreme.)

You've just touched on my next question.  What size of casimir plates would be needed to create a viable warp field...  4 Ounces of matter contains a hell of a lot of energy...


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Offline Stormbringer

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Re: Van Den Broek's alcubierre metric variant warp space configuration
« Reply #125 on: October 29, 2005, 05:25:42 am »
No. When two plates are close enough together certain virtual particle modes are impossible between them while the virtual particle activity outside remains normal. This creates a energy difference between the interior and exterior region with a relatively negative energy density between the plates.The result is the plates are attracted to each other regardless of charge. The relative negative potential in between the plates acts in all ways like theoretical negative energy and could substitute for it in schemes that require negative mass or energy.

If I've read this correctly, the virtual modes between them are dependent on what virtual particles have an associated wavelength that would be equal to, or that would have integer multiples equal to the distance between the plates...  I still don't get why this is taken as proof of exotic forms of energy, it seems like standard Quantum Physics (if such a word can be applied to QM) to me... 


As a matter of fact, one of the banes of the life of a sound engineer is that sound wavelengths equal to or that have integer multiples equal to the distance between parallel surfaces in a room create standing waves, which is an analogus macroscopic phenomena...

your description of the mechanics is correct as far as it goes. but as odd as it sounds the effect there acts in all ways as if there were negative energy or mass between them, this is well studied both as casimir force or van der wahls forces. the problem is the effect is miniscule and clearly at least 4 ounces equivelant is needed for purposes of warp engines.


Offline Stormbringer

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Re: Van Den Broek's alcubierre metric variant warp space configuration
« Reply #126 on: October 29, 2005, 05:30:19 am »
The problem with the method is that the best metric for space warp requires 4 ounces of negative matter/energy. while that is considerably more practical than the older metrics that requires more negative mass than the sum total of the energy/mass in the universe it would require essentially an small atomic bomb's worth of (negative) energy. The analogy meant to invoke the amount of energy in four ounces of matter according to the equation E=MC^2. it would seem impossible to me to create a casimir apparatus that would both create a useable warp field and be small enough to be fitted onto a ship. (difficulty understated in the extreme.)

You've just touched on my next question.  What size of casimir plates would be needed to create a viable warp field...  4 Ounces of matter contains a hell of a lot of energy...

indeed. i know of no practical way to harness enough negative energy to do it. my point was to provide examples of negative energy accepted by current science so that you would abandon the "it's all theoretical" objection.

Offline Stormbringer

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Re: Van Den Broek's alcubierre metric variant warp space configuration
« Reply #127 on: October 29, 2005, 05:42:35 am »
I think those plates would cover texas and alaska put together. just a wild assed guess...

Offline Stormbringer

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Re: Van Den Broek's alcubierre metric variant warp space configuration
« Reply #128 on: October 29, 2005, 03:50:30 pm »
I think those plates would cover texas and alaska put together. just a wild assed guess...

BUT...What if we used IC chip manufacturing techniques to make huge numbers of integrated nanoscaled casimir plate pairs? would that effectively multiply the casimir force per unit of area? if it would then the problem moves from supply to harnessing that force in useful ways.

Offline Tus-XC

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Re: Van Den Broek's alcubierre metric variant warp space configuration
« Reply #129 on: October 29, 2005, 08:04:20 pm »
isn't that also refered to as zero point energy?
Rob

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Offline Stormbringer

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Re: Van Den Broek's alcubierre metric variant warp space configuration
« Reply #130 on: October 29, 2005, 08:20:00 pm »
isn't that also refered to as zero point energy?

The virtual particles? yes it is, and theoretically infinite; but there is no known way at present to harness the virtual particles (say virtual electrons) in large numbers to, for example, power a refridgerator or something. there are schemes for getting a few of them out of the vacuum but not in any significant numbers. though on this subject the fringe people are doing far more research than staid serious credentialed scientists.

firstly scientists are not engineers and secondly they are afraid of the peer dogmatism that such "way out" research would bring on them and their reputations.

Offline Tus-XC

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Re: Van Den Broek's alcubierre metric variant warp space configuration
« Reply #131 on: October 29, 2005, 08:29:36 pm »
ahh, ok just making sure that what i thought it was was ;)
Rob

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Offline Stormbringer

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Re: Van Den Broek's alcubierre metric variant warp space configuration
« Reply #132 on: October 29, 2005, 08:34:18 pm »
To clarify: casimir force and van der wahls forces are not necesarily zero point energy. casimir force is a side effect of constraints on the vacuum or zero point energy.

Offline Stormbringer

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Re: Van Den Broek's alcubierre metric variant warp space configuration
« Reply #133 on: October 30, 2005, 12:59:17 am »
additional info and references on Zero Point energy:

http://www.calphysics.org/zpe.html

From the link:


There is a force associated with the electromagnetic quantum vacuum: the Casimir force. This force is an attraction between parallel metallic plates that has now been well measured and can be attributed to a minutely tiny imbalance in the zero-point energy in the cavity between versus the region outside the plates. This is not useful for propulsion since it symmetrically pulls on the plates. However if some asymmetric variation of the Casimir force could be identified one could in effect sail through space as if propelled by a kind of quantum fluctuation wind. This is pure speculation.

The other requirement for space travel is energy. A thought experiment published by physicist Robert Forward in 1984 demonstrated how the Casimir force could in principle be used to extract energy from the quantum vacuum (Phys. Rev. B, 30, 1700, 1984). Theoretical studies in the early 1990s (Phys. Rev. E, 48, 1562, 1993) verified that this was not contradictory to the laws of thermodynamics (since the zero-point energy is different from a thermal reservoir of heat). Unfortunately the Forward process cannot be cycled to yield a continuous extraction of energy. A Casimir engine would be one whose cylinders could only fire once, after which the engine become useless.

ORIGIN OF ZERO-POINT ENERGY

The basis of zero-point energy is the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, one of the fundamental laws of quantum physics. According to this principle, the more precisely one measures the position of a moving particle, such as an electron, the less exact the best possible measurement of momentum (mass times velocity) will be, and vice versa. The least possible uncertainty of position times momentum is specified by Planck's constant, h. A parallel uncertainty exists between measurements involving time and energy. This minimum uncertainty is not due to any correctable flaws in measurement, but rather reflects an intrinsic quantum fuzziness in the very nature of energy and matter.

A useful calculational tool in physics is the ideal harmonic oscillator: a hypothetical mass on a perfect spring moving back and forth. The Heisenberg uncertainty principle dictates that such an ideal harmonic oscillator -- one small enough to be subject to quantum laws -- can never come entirely to rest, since that would be a state of exactly zero energy, which is forbidden. In this case the average minimum energy is one-half h times the frequency, hf/2.

Radio waves, light, X-rays, and gamma rays are all forms of electromagnetic radiation. Classically, electromagnetic radiation can be pictured as waves flowing through space at the speed of light. The waves are not waves of anything substantive, but are in fact ripples in a state of a field. These waves do carry energy, and each wave has a specific direction, frequency and polarization state. This is called a "propagating mode of the electromagnetic field."

Each mode is subject to the Heisenberg uncertainty principle. To understand the meaning of this, the theory of electromagnetic radiation is quantized by treating each mode as an equivalent harmonic oscillator. From this analogy, every mode of the field must have hf/2 as its average minimum energy. That is a tiny amount of energy, but the number of modes is enormous, and indeed increases as the square of the frequency. The product of the tiny energy per mode times the huge spatial density of modes yields a very high theoretical energy density per cubic centimeter.

From this line of reasoning, quantum physics predicts that all of space must be filled with electromagnetic zero-point fluctuations (also called the zero-point field) creating a universal sea of zero-point energy. The density of this energy depends critically on where in frequency the zero-point fluctuations cease. Since space itself is thought to break up into a kind of quantum foam at a tiny distance scale called the Planck scale (10-33 cm), it is argued that the zero point fluctuations must cease at a corresponding Planck frequency (1043 Hz). If that is the case, the zero-point energy density would be 110 orders of magnitude greater than the radiant energy at the center of the Sun.

CONNECTION TO INERTIA AND GRAVITATION

When a passenger in an airplane feels pushed against his seat as the airplane accelerates down the runway, or when a driver feels pushed to the left when her car makes a sharp turn to the right, what is doing the pushing? Since the time of Newton, this has been attributed to an innate property of matter called inertia. In 1994 a process was discovered whereby the zero-point fluctuations could be the source of the push one feels when changing speed or direction, both being forms of acceleration. The zero-point fluctuations could be the underlying cause of inertia. If that is the case, then we are actually sensing the zero-point energy with every move we make (see origin of inertia).

The principle of equivalence would require an analogous connection for gravitation. Einstein's general relativity successfully accounts for the motions of freely-falling objects on geodesics (the "shortest" distance between two points in curved spacetime), but does not provide a mechanism for generating a gravitational force for objects when they are forced to deviate from geodesic tracks. It has been found that an object undergoing acceleration or one held fixed in a gravitational field would experience the same kind of asymmetric pattern in the zero-point field giving rise to such a reaction force. The weight you measure on a scale would therefore be due to zero-point energy (see gravitation).

The possibility that electromagnetic zero-point energy may be involved in the production of inertial and gravitational forces opens the possibility that both inertia and gravitation might someday be controlled and manipulated. This could have a profound impact on propulsion and space travel.

Primary Articles (see Scientific Articles for additional articles)

Gravity and the Quantum Vacuum Inertia Hypothesis
Alfonso Rueda & Bernard Haisch, Annalen der Physik, Vol. 14, No. 8, 479-498 (2005).

Analysis of Orbital Decay Time for the Classical Hydrogen Atom Interacting with Circularly Polarized Electromagnetic Radiation
Daniel C. Cole & Yi Zou, Physical Review E, 69, 016601, (2004).

Inertial mass and the quantum vacuum fields
Bernard Haisch, Alfonso Rueda & York Dobyns, Annalen der Physik, Vol. 10, No. 5, 393-414 (2001).

Stochastic nonrelativistic approach to gravity as originating from vacuum zero-point field van der Waals forces
Daniel C. Cole, Alfonso Rueda, Konn Danley, Physical Review A, 63, 054101, (2001).

The Case for Inertia as a Vacuum Effect: a Reply to Woodward & Mahood
Y. Dobyns, A. Rueda & B.Haisch, Foundations of Physics, Vol. 30, No. 1, 59 (2000).


On the relation between a zero-point-field-induced inertial effect and the Einstein-de Broglie formula
B. Haisch & A. Rueda, Physics Letters A, 268, 224, (2000).

Contribution to inertial mass by reaction of the vacuum to accelerated motion
A. Rueda & B. Haisch, Foundations of Physics, Vol. 28, No. 7, pp. 1057-1108 (1998).

Inertial mass as reaction of the vacuum to acccelerated motion
A. Rueda & B. Haisch, Physics Letters A, vol. 240, No. 3, pp. 115-126, (1998).

Reply to Michel's "Comment on Zero-Point Fluctuations and the Cosmological Constant"
B. Haisch & A. Rueda, Astrophysical Journal, 488, 563, (1997).

Quantum and classical statistics of the electromagnetic zero-point-field
M. Ibison & B. Haisch, Physical Review A, 54, pp. 2737-2744, (1996).

Vacuum Zero-Point Field Pressure Instability in Astrophysical Plasmas and the Formation of Cosmic Voids
A. Rueda, B. Haisch & D.C. Cole, Astrophysical Journal, Vol. 445, pp. 7-16 (1995).

Inertia as a zero-point-field Lorentz force
B. Haisch, A. Rueda & H.E. Puthoff, Physical Review A, Vol. 49, No. 2, pp. 678-694 (1994).

Offline prometheus

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Re: Van Den Broek's alcubierre metric variant warp space configuration
« Reply #134 on: October 30, 2005, 09:48:55 am »
isn't that also refered to as zero point energy?
firstly scientists are not engineers and secondly they are afraid of the peer dogmatism that such "way out" research would bring on them and their reputations.

Would it surprise you to know that I can see exactly where they're coming from?  ;)


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Offline Stormbringer

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Re: Van Den Broek's alcubierre metric variant warp space configuration
« Reply #135 on: October 30, 2005, 10:47:44 am »
isn't that also refered to as zero point energy?
firstly scientists are not engineers and secondly they are afraid of the peer dogmatism that such "way out" research would bring on them and their reputations.

Would it surprise you to know that I can see exactly where they're coming from?  ;)
No. but you must remember undiscovered stuff is only found by looking where no one has bothered to look.  and since science is about that discovery then such attitudes are well...curious.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2005, 03:26:28 pm by Stormbringer »

Offline Stormbringer

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Re: Van Den Broek's alcubierre metric variant warp space configuration
« Reply #136 on: October 30, 2005, 07:38:36 pm »
Crap! I lost a good post about what negative matter and energy is. I'll try to reproduce the idea later.

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Re: Van Den Broek's alcubierre metric variant warp space configuration
« Reply #137 on: October 30, 2005, 07:56:49 pm »

 I still don't get why this is taken as proof of exotic forms of energy, it seems like standard Quantum Physics (if such a word can be applied to QM) to me... 


Well the uncertainty principle allows "imaginary" negative energy states for particles, quanta and so on. imagine a sine wave with the positive curve representing physical particles and energy states normal for our universe and the negative part of the sine wave representing virtual particles and quanta. now introduce a set of casimir plates that supresses a great deal of the virtual particles and exchanges. there are no or at least much fewer virtual energies in the gap between the plates. thus the area in the gap has less energy relative to the surrounding area which is considered  at the zero point or ground state. this renders it's energy negative and it's mass negative compared to free regions of space. note that casimir plated are attracted to each other regardless of charge. this is the opposite or negative of what should happen by conventional understandings of physical laws. but it would be what would be expected if signs were reversed in the physical equations.

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Re: Van Den Broek's alcubierre metric variant warp space configuration
« Reply #138 on: October 31, 2005, 12:43:43 am »
say speakin' of staid dogmatic scientists: remember way back when when anyone who was not a k0ok knew that stellar processes did not produce elements heavier than iron except during super nova explosions? anyone who said otherwise was a fool, a charlatan or a liar. well now that lead has been verified in several stars that definitely were not novas there is nary a peep of apology to those of us who said stars could indeed sythesize trans iron elements. nope not one "We fooked up and we're sorry" from the smarmy peer reviewed robe wearing acolytes of science dogma. well they can all bugger off.

Offline prometheus

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Re: Van Den Broek's alcubierre metric variant warp space configuration
« Reply #139 on: October 31, 2005, 03:53:10 am »
say speakin' of staid dogmatic scientists: remember way back when when anyone who was not a k0ok knew that stellar processes did not produce elements heavier than iron except during super nova explosions? anyone who said otherwise was a fool, a charlatan or a liar. well now that lead has been verified in several stars that definitely were not novas there is nary a peep of apology to those of us who said stars could indeed sythesize trans iron elements. nope not one "We fooked up and we're sorry" from the smarmy peer reviewed robe wearing acolytes of science dogma. well they can all bugger off.

Science is about seperating fact from fiction, and without the robe wearing acolytes of science dogma, scientific research will give way to outlandish nonsense, and the most effective tool for filtering knowledge ever deivsed will turn into a religion as preposterous as any of the other ones...  If you want to join the scientologists, be my guest, but I'll stick with the science dogma...


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