Topic: Van Den Broek's alcubierre metric variant warp space configuration

[prometheus]

Scientists said we would never be able to build Lasers suitable for balistic defense. yet here we are. ABL, SBL, THEL, M-THEL, and the liquid cooled refraction matched laser is here. Same for the SM-4 and other kinetic Kill missiles. what is more practical that preventing the nuclear death of millions and the defeat of our nations?

Thinking about this, LASER tech wouldn't even be the issue, the issue would be whether you could build an automatic targetting system that could gimbal fast enough to keep up with a missile programmed to make undeterministic course changes, and whether it could defend itself from being taken out by other orbital vehicles, or whether it could target a raghead who is cunnigly disguised as a buisnessman in a suit and tie coming into a country with a very expensive deleivery...

[prometheus]

Why?

What makes science theory become reality is funding.  No Bucks = No Buck Rogers, and spending money on Star Trek esque  fantasy should be left to Star Trek esque SF writers...  Scientists should stick with science...

again I must ask:  How do we take the steps necessary to get there if none of our scientist deign it worthwhile to do so for reasons of alledged practicality?

If you are an ironage man, there is little point in worrying about how to build a laser beam to run CD players, you are far better thinking about how best to build a more efficient blast furnace to make better alloys...  Science proceeds on taking things a step at a time and concentrating on what's in front, not in trying to put the cart in front of the horse or run before learning to walk...   Advances come in due course...  If we learn to warp space without wiping our planet out in the process, all well and good, but that is generations ahead of us, and at the moment utterly pointless tosh...   Just as everything HG Wells thought would come to pass or Arthur C Clarke, has panned out differently, so will the ideas we have today...  Science fiction writers will come up with the dreams...  The time of scientists is best spent in the real world, not on Cloud Nine where glowing fairies are flitting to yonder toadstool...

if that is the case we would have never made it to the iron age let alone out of it.

Every single advance human beings have ever made has been accomplished by looking at the data that is right in front of you...  Do you honestly think the apple that fell on Newtons head distracted him from a meditation of Tachyon Warp Drives?

[prometheus]

Really? It cannot have any bearing on humanity at all? that's a rule of the universe or something? science says otherwise. peer reviewed science in the fields of cosmology. electronics engineering, astronomy, physics,... say otherwise. your computer likely has components in it derived from some of those far out theories that can "have no practical application to benefit humanity."

I don't recall anyone having to be squeezed into a space time metric with massive surface area but almost zero volume at an energy expenditure so exorbitant that it would turn the area of space time the would be Intel Pentium Technician was occupying into a mushroom cloud big enough to obliterate all the terrestrial planets in order to build your Pentium processor...  It's a little different...  

We do not know that that requirement will not be bypassed or overcame by some advance similar to how Van DEn Broek's improvement over Alcubierre's work. We do not know that some energy slight of hand cannot produce even that amout of energy yet not have the destructive consequences conventionally accepted. it the same way we think we can do fusion in a glass of deuterium acetone in a popped bubble; the power of the stars is unleashed.

More machinery that isn't even at the vapourware stage yet...

[Stormbringer]

Scientists said we would never be able to build Lasers suitable for balistic defense. yet here we are. ABL, SBL, THEL, M-THEL, and the liquid cooled refraction matched laser is here. Same for the SM-4 and other kinetic Kill missiles. what is more practical that preventing the nuclear death of millions and the defeat of our nations?

That is a matter of opinion.  For one, it has yet to be proven to be any use whatsoever, especially if your enemies sail them in and launch them from a cunningly disguised fishing trawler, and for another, the last test of this technology I read of was an embarrassing disaster...  Moreover, all the aforementioned scientists said was that the LASER tech didn't exist today...

Nope. won't protect against fish trawlers. can't do it. It won't do it all so why bother? Except it was not designed to protect us from fish trawlers. we have technologies coming on line to detect problematic fish trawlers and some point in the future we will have a marvel called a torpedo which will stop them in their tracks!

As to embarrassing well. the SBL is already deployed. (in my informed opinion) and the other lements are either deployed or being fielded soon. the SM-4 is fielded on four aegis class cruisers. the ABL is being built all technologies have been validated. the arrow II validated kinetic kill vehicles. the M-THEL has shot down hundreds of rockets mortars and artillery at a range of up to 12 miles. while it was too bulky to be of much use to a highly mobile military the liquid cooled LASER drops that footprint and manning by at least 1/3. putting the concept within reasonable specs for fielding.

[Stormbringer]

Scientists said we would never be able to build Lasers suitable for balistic defense. yet here we are. ABL, SBL, THEL, M-THEL, and the liquid cooled refraction matched laser is here. Same for the SM-4 and other kinetic Kill missiles. what is more practical that preventing the nuclear death of millions and the defeat of our nations?

Thinking about this, LASER tech wouldn't even be the issue, the issue would be whether you could build an automatic targetting system that could gimbal fast enough to keep up with a missile programmed to make undeterministic course changes, and whether it could defend itself from being taken out by other orbital vehicles, or whether it could target a raghead who is cunnigly disguised as a buisnessman in a suit and tie coming into a country with a very expensive deleivery...

But lasers were the issue a couple of decades even a few years ago weren't they? As to slewing a laser to keep up with a missile; that is a bit behind the times. the tracking is accomplished only partly by aiming the whole laser. the beam is deflected by optical or em components. this aiming problem is overstated. in fact there have already been shootdowns of missiles in flight by lasers. erratic manuevers by a missile cannot outpace a opic system that need to move less than an arc second to cover a change of thousands of meters at thetarget end of the beam.

[prometheus]

Scientists said we would never be able to build Lasers suitable for balistic defense. yet here we are. ABL, SBL, THEL, M-THEL, and the liquid cooled refraction matched laser is here. Same for the SM-4 and other kinetic Kill missiles. what is more practical that preventing the nuclear death of millions and the defeat of our nations?

That is a matter of opinion.  For one, it has yet to be proven to be any use whatsoever, especially if your enemies sail them in and launch them from a cunningly disguised fishing trawler, and for another, the last test of this technology I read of was an embarrassing disaster...  Moreover, all the aforementioned scientists said was that the LASER tech didn't exist today...

Nope. won't protect against fish trawlers. can't do it. It won't do it all so why bother? Except it was not designed to protect us from fish trawlers. we have technologies coming on line to detect problematic fish trawlers and some point in the future we will have a marvel called a torpedo which will stop them in their tracks!

As to embarrassing well. the SBL is already deployed. (in my informed opinion) and the other lements are either deployed or being fielded soon. the SM-4 is fielded on four aegis class cruisers. the ABL is being built all technologies have been validated. the arrow II validated kinetic kill vehicles. the M-THEL has shot down hundreds of rockets mortars and artillery at a range of up to 12 miles. while it was too bulky to be of much use to a highly mobile military the liquid cooled LASER drops that footprint and manning by at least 1/3. putting the concept within reasonable specs for fielding.

Well, you could be right old friend, but I wouldn't like to bet my life on it...  

[Stormbringer]

Scientists said we would never be able to build Lasers suitable for balistic defense. yet here we are. ABL, SBL, THEL, M-THEL, and the liquid cooled refraction matched laser is here. Same for the SM-4 and other kinetic Kill missiles. what is more practical that preventing the nuclear death of millions and the defeat of our nations?

That is a matter of opinion.  For one, it has yet to be proven to be any use whatsoever, especially if your enemies sail them in and launch them from a cunningly disguised fishing trawler, and for another, the last test of this technology I read of was an embarrassing disaster...  Moreover, all the aforementioned scientists said was that the LASER tech didn't exist today...

Nope. won't protect against fish trawlers. can't do it. It won't do it all so why bother? Except it was not designed to protect us from fish trawlers. we have technologies coming on line to detect problematic fish trawlers and some point in the future we will have a marvel called a torpedo which will stop them in their tracks!

As to embarrassing well. the SBL is already deployed. (in my informed opinion) and the other lements are either deployed or being fielded soon. the SM-4 is fielded on four aegis class cruisers. the ABL is being built all technologies have been validated. the arrow II validated kinetic kill vehicles. the M-THEL has shot down hundreds of rockets mortars and artillery at a range of up to 12 miles. while it was too bulky to be of much use to a highly mobile military the liquid cooled LASER drops that footprint and manning by at least 1/3. putting the concept within reasonable specs for fielding.

Well, you could be right old friend, but I wouldn't like to bet my life on it...  

No one wants to bet thier life on it. to do so means some one has launched a missile with the intent to obliterate millions of human lives. There is always the chance our defenses no matter how good will fail. it would be insane to wish to be placed in that situation. however it would also be insane to choose not to mount a defense against such a possibility.

[prometheus]

Scientists said we would never be able to build Lasers suitable for balistic defense. yet here we are. ABL, SBL, THEL, M-THEL, and the liquid cooled refraction matched laser is here. Same for the SM-4 and other kinetic Kill missiles. what is more practical that preventing the nuclear death of millions and the defeat of our nations?

Thinking about this, LASER tech wouldn't even be the issue, the issue would be whether you could build an automatic targetting system that could gimbal fast enough to keep up with a missile programmed to make undeterministic course changes, and whether it could defend itself from being taken out by other orbital vehicles, or whether it could target a raghead who is cunnigly disguised as a buisnessman in a suit and tie coming into a country with a very expensive deleivery...

But lasers were the issue a couple of decades even a few years ago weren't they? As to slewing a laser to keep up with a missile; that is a bit behind the times. the tracking is accomplished only partly by aiming the whole laser. the beam is deflected by optical or em components. this aiming problem is overstated. in fact there have already been shootdowns of missiles in flight by lasers. erratic manuevers by a missile cannot outpace a opic system that need to move less than an arc second to cover a change of thousands of meters at thetarget end of the beam.

Maybe...  but you can bet some clever boffin somewhere is already thinking of ways to get around the LASER beams...  Not that this is really on topic, but I have never seen a missile shot down by a LASER although I'm not disputing it has been done...  If I was given the contract to get round this I'd possibly think about firing thousands of damp squibs to escort my live bombs...  Or maybe incorporate a fourth gimbal in my missiles and thick layers of protective insulation and send them across in a constant slow barbeque roll with a small resonant yaw...

[prometheus]

Scientists said we would never be able to build Lasers suitable for balistic defense. yet here we are. ABL, SBL, THEL, M-THEL, and the liquid cooled refraction matched laser is here. Same for the SM-4 and other kinetic Kill missiles. what is more practical that preventing the nuclear death of millions and the defeat of our nations?

That is a matter of opinion.  For one, it has yet to be proven to be any use whatsoever, especially if your enemies sail them in and launch them from a cunningly disguised fishing trawler, and for another, the last test of this technology I read of was an embarrassing disaster...  Moreover, all the aforementioned scientists said was that the LASER tech didn't exist today...

Nope. won't protect against fish trawlers. can't do it. It won't do it all so why bother? Except it was not designed to protect us from fish trawlers. we have technologies coming on line to detect problematic fish trawlers and some point in the future we will have a marvel called a torpedo which will stop them in their tracks!

As to embarrassing well. the SBL is already deployed. (in my informed opinion) and the other lements are either deployed or being fielded soon. the SM-4 is fielded on four aegis class cruisers. the ABL is being built all technologies have been validated. the arrow II validated kinetic kill vehicles. the M-THEL has shot down hundreds of rockets mortars and artillery at a range of up to 12 miles. while it was too bulky to be of much use to a highly mobile military the liquid cooled LASER drops that footprint and manning by at least 1/3. putting the concept within reasonable specs for fielding.

Well, you could be right old friend, but I wouldn't like to bet my life on it...  

No one wants to bet thier life on it. to do so means some one has launched a missile with the intent to obliterate millions of human lives. There is always the chance our defenses no matter how good will fail. it would be insane to wish to be placed in that situation. however it would also be insane to choose not to mount a defense against such a possibility.

I concur, but I don't think powerful LASERS are really unknown Science...

[Stormbringer]

Really? It cannot have any bearing on humanity at all? that's a rule of the universe or something? science says otherwise. peer reviewed science in the fields of cosmology. electronics engineering, astronomy, physics,... say otherwise. your computer likely has components in it derived from some of those far out theories that can "have no practical application to benefit humanity."

I don't recall anyone having to be squeezed into a space time metric with massive surface area but almost zero volume at an energy expenditure so exorbitant that it would turn the area of space time the would be Intel Pentium Technician was occupying into a mushroom cloud big enough to obliterate all the terrestrial planets in order to build your Pentium processor...  It's a little different...  

We do not know that that requirement will not be bypassed or overcame by some advance similar to how Van DEn Broek's improvement over Alcubierre's work. We do not know that some energy slight of hand cannot produce even that amout of energy yet not have the destructive consequences conventionally accepted. it the same way we think we can do fusion in a glass of deuterium acetone in a popped bubble; the power of the stars is unleashed.

More machinery that isn't even at the vapourware stage yet...

Don't be too sure my friend. some of this is within the reach of basement "scientists." How hard is it to get a couple of plates and precision measuring devices to work with casimir force? that is a fundamental building block for the later steps toward fiddling around with dimensional silly putty.

[prometheus]

Really? It cannot have any bearing on humanity at all? that's a rule of the universe or something? science says otherwise. peer reviewed science in the fields of cosmology. electronics engineering, astronomy, physics,... say otherwise. your computer likely has components in it derived from some of those far out theories that can "have no practical application to benefit humanity."

I don't recall anyone having to be squeezed into a space time metric with massive surface area but almost zero volume at an energy expenditure so exorbitant that it would turn the area of space time the would be Intel Pentium Technician was occupying into a mushroom cloud big enough to obliterate all the terrestrial planets in order to build your Pentium processor...  It's a little different...  

We do not know that that requirement will not be bypassed or overcame by some advance similar to how Van DEn Broek's improvement over Alcubierre's work. We do not know that some energy slight of hand cannot produce even that amout of energy yet not have the destructive consequences conventionally accepted. it the same way we think we can do fusion in a glass of deuterium acetone in a popped bubble; the power of the stars is unleashed.

More machinery that isn't even at the vapourware stage yet...

Don't be too sure my friend. some of this is within the reach of basement "scientists." How hard is it to get a couple of plates and precision measuring devices to work with casimir force? that is a fundamental building block for the later steps toward fiddling around with dimensional silly putty.

I wonder what effect this would have on a man...  An interesting line of thought I read about in Sci Fi was of a man who unwittingly is caught in a Spacetime Mobius strip, and when he manages to get back to normal reality, notices his wife looked like her mirror image used to...  He notices that the whole World is in fact back to front, and everyone else thinks that he is!  When he eventually gets hungry and eats, he is killed, because the proteins in the food all have left hand parity, while the proteins in his body now have right hand parity.  The food he eats is toxic to him and destroys him...  Nobody can figure out why! 

I wonder if being caught up in unusual spacetime topology might have more drastic effects that are more imediately apparent?

[Stormbringer]

Scientists said we would never be able to build Lasers suitable for balistic defense. yet here we are. ABL, SBL, THEL, M-THEL, and the liquid cooled refraction matched laser is here. Same for the SM-4 and other kinetic Kill missiles. what is more practical that preventing the nuclear death of millions and the defeat of our nations?

Thinking about this, LASER tech wouldn't even be the issue, the issue would be whether you could build an automatic targetting system that could gimbal fast enough to keep up with a missile programmed to make undeterministic course changes, and whether it could defend itself from being taken out by other orbital vehicles, or whether it could target a raghead who is cunnigly disguised as a buisnessman in a suit and tie coming into a country with a very expensive deleivery...

But lasers were the issue a couple of decades even a few years ago weren't they? As to slewing a laser to keep up with a missile; that is a bit behind the times. the tracking is accomplished only partly by aiming the whole laser. the beam is deflected by optical or em components. this aiming problem is overstated. in fact there have already been shootdowns of missiles in flight by lasers. erratic manuevers by a missile cannot outpace a opic system that need to move less than an arc second to cover a change of thousands of meters at thetarget end of the beam.

Maybe...  but you can bet some clever boffin somewhere is already thinking of ways to get around the LASER beams...  Not that this is really on topic, but I have never seen a missile shot down by a LASER although I'm not disputing it has been done...  If I was given the contract to get round this I'd possibly think about firing thousands of damp squibs to escort my live bombs...  Or maybe incorporate a fourth gimbal in my missiles and thick layers of protective insulation and send them across in a constant slow barbeque roll with a small resonant yaw...

It is fascinating. several systems have shot down missiles in flieght. the M-THEL has hundres under it's belt. the other on that is unclassified  escapes me at the moment. Decoy discrimination has improved vastly. i suppose the easiest way is with passive neutrons but we use lidar, and other multispectrum sensors as well. also there is the fact that a plutonium warhead could almost be detected across half the universe. uranium is a bit more difficult but no doubt already done. plus the defense will have over capacity so that it could hit all the decoys and still get all the real ones if we chose to do it that way. THe SBL can hit 100 targets. there are supposed to be 20 to 40 of them on orbit.

[prometheus]

Scientists said we would never be able to build Lasers suitable for balistic defense. yet here we are. ABL, SBL, THEL, M-THEL, and the liquid cooled refraction matched laser is here. Same for the SM-4 and other kinetic Kill missiles. what is more practical that preventing the nuclear death of millions and the defeat of our nations?

Thinking about this, LASER tech wouldn't even be the issue, the issue would be whether you could build an automatic targetting system that could gimbal fast enough to keep up with a missile programmed to make undeterministic course changes, and whether it could defend itself from being taken out by other orbital vehicles, or whether it could target a raghead who is cunnigly disguised as a buisnessman in a suit and tie coming into a country with a very expensive deleivery...

But lasers were the issue a couple of decades even a few years ago weren't they? As to slewing a laser to keep up with a missile; that is a bit behind the times. the tracking is accomplished only partly by aiming the whole laser. the beam is deflected by optical or em components. this aiming problem is overstated. in fact there have already been shootdowns of missiles in flight by lasers. erratic manuevers by a missile cannot outpace a opic system that need to move less than an arc second to cover a change of thousands of meters at thetarget end of the beam.

Maybe...  but you can bet some clever boffin somewhere is already thinking of ways to get around the LASER beams...  Not that this is really on topic, but I have never seen a missile shot down by a LASER although I'm not disputing it has been done...  If I was given the contract to get round this I'd possibly think about firing thousands of damp squibs to escort my live bombs...  Or maybe incorporate a fourth gimbal in my missiles and thick layers of protective insulation and send them across in a constant slow barbeque roll with a small resonant yaw...

It is fascinating. several systems have shot down missiles in flieght. the M-THEL has hundres under it's belt. the other on that is unclassified  escapes me at the moment. Decoy discrimination has improved vastly. i suppose the easiest way is with passive neutrons but we use lidar, and other multispectrum sensors as well. also there is the fact that a plutonium warhead could almost be detected across half the universe. uranium is a bit more difficult but no doubt already done. plus the defense will have over capacity so that it could hit all the decoys and still get all the real ones if we chose to do it that way. THe SBL can hit 100 targets. there are supposed to be 20 to 40 of them on orbit.

That is interesting...  If a race is sparked off between more and more effective LASERS and attempts to find LASER resistant materials, some very interesting technology could develope...  Imagine a LASER handgun that could strafe across wide areas at lighting speed and didn't require any real aiming!

[Stormbringer]

Really? It cannot have any bearing on humanity at all? that's a rule of the universe or something? science says otherwise. peer reviewed science in the fields of cosmology. electronics engineering, astronomy, physics,... say otherwise. your computer likely has components in it derived from some of those far out theories that can "have no practical application to benefit humanity."

I don't recall anyone having to be squeezed into a space time metric with massive surface area but almost zero volume at an energy expenditure so exorbitant that it would turn the area of space time the would be Intel Pentium Technician was occupying into a mushroom cloud big enough to obliterate all the terrestrial planets in order to build your Pentium processor...  It's a little different...  

We do not know that that requirement will not be bypassed or overcame by some advance similar to how Van DEn Broek's improvement over Alcubierre's work. We do not know that some energy slight of hand cannot produce even that amout of energy yet not have the destructive consequences conventionally accepted. it the same way we think we can do fusion in a glass of deuterium acetone in a popped bubble; the power of the stars is unleashed.

More machinery that isn't even at the vapourware stage yet...

Don't be too sure my friend. some of this is within the reach of basement "scientists." How hard is it to get a couple of plates and precision measuring devices to work with casimir force? that is a fundamental building block for the later steps toward fiddling around with dimensional silly putty.

I wonder what effect this would have on a man...  An interesting line of thought I read about in Sci Fi was of a man who unwittingly is caught in a Spacetime Mobius strip, and when he manages to get back to normal reality, notices his wife looked like her mirror image used to...  He notices that the whole World is in fact back to front, and everyone else thinks that he is!  When he eventually gets hungry and eats, he is killed, because the proteins in the food all have left hand parity, while the proteins in his body now have right hand parity.  The food he eats is toxic to him and destroys him...  Nobody can figure out why! 

I wonder if being caught up in unusual spacetime topology might have more drastic effects that are more imediately apparent?

It might. no way to know. i would certainly not build it and hop through without thourough test articles and animals going through.

[Stormbringer]

Scientists said we would never be able to build Lasers suitable for balistic defense. yet here we are. ABL, SBL, THEL, M-THEL, and the liquid cooled refraction matched laser is here. Same for the SM-4 and other kinetic Kill missiles. what is more practical that preventing the nuclear death of millions and the defeat of our nations?

Thinking about this, LASER tech wouldn't even be the issue, the issue would be whether you could build an automatic targetting system that could gimbal fast enough to keep up with a missile programmed to make undeterministic course changes, and whether it could defend itself from being taken out by other orbital vehicles, or whether it could target a raghead who is cunnigly disguised as a buisnessman in a suit and tie coming into a country with a very expensive deleivery...

But lasers were the issue a couple of decades even a few years ago weren't they? As to slewing a laser to keep up with a missile; that is a bit behind the times. the tracking is accomplished only partly by aiming the whole laser. the beam is deflected by optical or em components. this aiming problem is overstated. in fact there have already been shootdowns of missiles in flight by lasers. erratic manuevers by a missile cannot outpace a opic system that need to move less than an arc second to cover a change of thousands of meters at thetarget end of the beam.

Maybe...  but you can bet some clever boffin somewhere is already thinking of ways to get around the LASER beams...  Not that this is really on topic, but I have never seen a missile shot down by a LASER although I'm not disputing it has been done...  If I was given the contract to get round this I'd possibly think about firing thousands of damp squibs to escort my live bombs...  Or maybe incorporate a fourth gimbal in my missiles and thick layers of protective insulation and send them across in a constant slow barbeque roll with a small resonant yaw...

It is fascinating. several systems have shot down missiles in flieght. the M-THEL has hundres under it's belt. the other on that is unclassified  escapes me at the moment. Decoy discrimination has improved vastly. i suppose the easiest way is with passive neutrons but we use lidar, and other multispectrum sensors as well. also there is the fact that a plutonium warhead could almost be detected across half the universe. uranium is a bit more difficult but no doubt already done. plus the defense will have over capacity so that it could hit all the decoys and still get all the real ones if we chose to do it that way. THe SBL can hit 100 targets. there are supposed to be 20 to 40 of them on orbit.

That is interesting...  If a race is sparked off between more and more effective LASERS and attempts to find LASER resistant materials, some very interesting technology could develope...

True. we know ablatives and reflection will not cut it for more pwoerful lasers. cold plasma shields are already being worked on.

[prometheus]

Nor I...  Anyhow, it's getting late this side of the pond...  It was great talking to you and some intersting stuff has come up...  I'll respond to any more posts tomorrow...

[Stormbringer]

Same here you  you you science conservative you!

[prometheus]

Same here you  you you science conservative you!

Guilty as charged...   

[Commander Maxillius]

Some of this Star Trek stuff could happen fairly quickly barring a catastrophe.  A war can only speed up research.

[Dracho]

Yeah.. who needs atomic weapons when you can make mass impact at the speed of light?

WHAM..