Topic: What is a "line" ship..

[Hexx]

Just a quick question for (yet another) server idea i'm thinking about..

How would you define a line ship-

Now, obviously the genericly produced ship, not a command variant, not a carrier etc.
However -some ships nedmore work

The Federation CA is (imo) a line ship, the CC is not, the CB (in R5) is described as a replacement/upgrade of the CC
The Lyran CA is a line ship, the CC is not, the CCH is described as replacing BOTH the CC and the CA
The D7 is not described either way- although it is mentioned as a variant of the D7 (not the D7C) Gurps Klingons
(it was very,very cheap) describes the D7's as being upgraded to the D7W.

So (from the very little I have)
after 75...
the CB is (technically) not a line ship
the CCH is a line ship
the D7W may be a line ship..


Or would everyone simply consider everything (non carrier/droner-of any sort)below a BCH as a line ship?

[FPF-SCM_TraceyG_XC]

Its made of lines, as opposed to a plane or a mathematical point. Vectors that are normal to the line ship can also be calculated using vector calculus in n-dimensions.

[762_XC]

A ship which would normally fill out the battle line. CA's, NCA's, CW's, CL's, DW's, DD's, and FF's are line ships. CC's and CCH's could be considered line ships after about 2278 or so because empires had stopped building CA's by this point.

Variants would not normally be considered line ships, although some droners are described as being operationally interchangable with their non-drone counterparts (i.e. those that are designed for direct combat as oppposed to fire support). Most DWD's fall into this category, and a few NCD's as well.

[Riskyllama]

so a line ship is any vessel that would have been mass produced in the SFB universe?

[762_XC]

Pretty much, yes. The criterion is not so much quantity as to whether it was intended as an everyday direct combat ship, as opposed to one with a special role such as command, scout, carrier, tender, escort, minesweeper, etc.

[Hexx]

Its made of lines, as opposed to a plane or a mathematical point. Vectors that are normal to the line ship can also be calculated using vector calculus in n-dimensions.

<places check mark next to "prime tbomb candidate">

[Hexx]

Pretty much, yes. The criterion is not so much quantity as to whether it was intended as an everyday direct combat ship, as opposed to one with a special role such as command, scout, carrier, tender, escort, minesweeper, etc.

That's what I had assumed, although 9as indicated) I was curious if-in SFB- the CCH's were considered to be lines as
they technically seem to have replaced CA's rather than CC's, normally I wouldn't have an question, as the BCH's would simply fill in the old
CC slot (so to speak) but the SFB build numbers for BCH's seem artifically low.

-Do you realize the the Klibgons built more BCH's than the Feds in the SFB timeline?

Weird stuff given their apparent economic differrences.

I'm mildy curious as to how a SFB "OOB" server would actually work given the .. questionable nature of some of the SFB
build decisions..

[Braxton_RIP]

Its made of lines, as opposed to a plane or a mathematical point. Vectors that are normal to the line ship can also be calculated using vector calculus in n-dimensions.

 

Pretty much, yes. The criterion is not so much quantity as to whether it was intended as an everyday direct combat ship, as opposed to one with a special role such as command, scout, carrier, tender, escort, minesweeper, etc.

That's what I had assumed, although 9as indicated) I was curious if-in SFB- the CCH's were considered to be lines as
they technically seem to have replaced CA's rather than CC's, normally I wouldn't have an question, as the BCH's would simply fill in the old
CC slot (so to speak) but the SFB build numbers for BCH's seem artifically low.

-Do you realize the the Klibgons built more BCH's than the Feds in the SFB timeline?

Weird stuff given their apparent economic differrences.

I'm mildy curious as to how a SFB "OOB" server would actually work given the .. questionable nature of some of the SFB
build decisions..

That is because the Klingons called anythind with a decent ammount of weaponry a BCH.

[Hexx]

Its made of lines, as opposed to a plane or a mathematical point. Vectors that are normal to the line ship can also be calculated using vector calculus in n-dimensions.

 

Pretty much, yes. The criterion is not so much quantity as to whether it was intended as an everyday direct combat ship, as opposed to one with a special role such as command, scout, carrier, tender, escort, minesweeper, etc.

That's what I had assumed, although 9as indicated) I was curious if-in SFB- the CCH's were considered to be lines as
they technically seem to have replaced CA's rather than CC's, normally I wouldn't have an question, as the BCH's would simply fill in the old
CC slot (so to speak) but the SFB build numbers for BCH's seem artifically low.

-Do you realize the the Klibgons built more BCH's than the Feds in the SFB timeline?

Weird stuff given their apparent economic differrences.

I'm mildy curious as to how a SFB "OOB" server would actually work given the .. questionable nature of some of the SFB
build decisions..

That is because the Klingons called anythind with a decent ammount of weaponry a BCH.

Yeas, but the feds took what 5, 6 shots to try and get one right?

[762_XC]

That's because the Feds switched over to X-ships before the Klingons did.

[FPF-DieHard]

That's because the Feds switched over to X-ships before the Klingons did.

Not entirely true, the Fed had twice the DN production of the klinks so they didn't need as many BCHs

[Hexx]

Is it stated somewhere how many DN's (of whatver type) the Feds built?

I can find Klinks built
2 B10's
Invincible (86)
Insatiable (87)
And 2 Booms

6 DN's + an unknown number of C8's
Victory (C9)
Admiral Kang (C8)
Atrocity (C9)
Carnivorous (C9)
Admiral Kruge (C9A)
Terror (C8)

3 C8V's
Vindicator
Harbinger
Apolcalypse

2(+?) C5's
Kommander Kurit
Kommander Kuyper

+ An unknown number of C8's/C9's Converted to C10's, also
unknown if there were new build C10's

and C7's (if anyone didn't know)
WAR -C7- (77)
FIRE -C7- (78)
PLAGUE -C7 (79)
FEAR -C7- (80) (converted to C7A)
DEATH -C7- (81)
PESTILENCE -C7V- (82)
PAIN -C7V- (83)
SUFFERING -C7S-(84)
DECIMATION -C7S- (85)
DAMNATION -C7S- (86)


Feds Built

DNL
Star Tiger (67) -Converted to DVL (73)
Star Leopard (68)
Star Cougar (69)
Star Lion (70)

BCH
Kirov BCG (77)
Bismarck BCF (78)
Australia BCG (79)
Forrest BCF (80)
New Zealand BCG (81)
Nikolai V BCF (82)
Shangri-La BCV (83)
Atlantis BCV/BCS (??)
New Jersey BCJ(86)
Montana BCJ(89)

CVA
MacArthur
Napolean-
(I know there was a third..)

SCS
George Washington (86)
Julius Caesar (??)
Napolean (converetd 90)
Is there anywhere that has the (SFB published) dates  numbers of the Various Fed DN's classes (numbers of ships built, not registries)?
Or that has the number of C10's upgraded or new build?

[FPF-DieHard]

Is it stated somewhere how many DN's (of whatver type) the Feds built?

I'm going off us Federation and Empire production rates.

See your PMs  . . .

[Hexx]

Got it thanks (actually looks more detailed than the one I have in the rulebook)

But it's really for a GW setup, I'm kinda looking for what might have survived the war
Yes I can figure out conversions & build cycles for.. 15 or so years of war, I'm just hoping
it's been done already 

[FPF-Wanderer]

Hexx, afaik, there is no source in the SFB literature that explicitly states the exact number of DN's that the Feds built (I could be wrong, I just haven't seen or heard of one).  I do have a theory, though...

It states in a number of places in SFB that the Feds conducted various deceptions campaigns, particularly regarding the numbers of certain ships they could field (the CVA's are the main example of this).  When you look at the listings for the DN's...

2100 Federation
2101 Star League
2102 *
2103 *
2104 *
2105 *
2106 Konkordium
2107 *
2108 *
2109 Concordat
2110 Directorate
2111 *
2112 Star Union
2113 Alliance
2114 *
2115 Dominion
2116 *
2117 *
2118 *
2119 Consortium
2120 Entente
2121 Trusteeship
2122 Unification
2123 Solidarity

...there is a total of 13.  IIRC, the Federation and the Star League were the only Dn's in the Fed inventory prior to building the DNL's ('67-'70).  Now, notice DN 2120 Entente.  This was the first DNG, launched in '75.  Obviously, the Feds couldn't have built DN's 2102-2119 (17 ships) between the last DNL and the first DNG (although they might  have been able to build the seven ships listed by name between Star League and Entente in that time).

The point is, the Feds could have been giving new DN's increasingly higher NCC numbers to fool the Coalition into thinking that the Feds had more DN's than they actually had.  I also think that the four slots after Star League were originally intended for the DNL's, but with war on the horizon, the Feds decided to give different numbers to the DNL's, skipped those four numbers, and the next DN built was given the number 2106, starting the deception (this is what I get for trying to get inside SVC's head late at night, lol).

So, in the end, I think that the DN's listed by name were, in fact, all of the DN's built by the Feds.

A few side notes;  the third CVA you were thinking of is the Zhukov.  Also, you should check your numbers on the BCH's; the Feds built 10, the Klinks 10...actually, the Feds built eleven.  You are missing BCS-1766 Lemuria.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

The ships filling in the missing numbers were in fact actually built, in fact they were built along the Kzinti border and disappeared on their test runs in the Mysterious "Finders Keepers" Nebula.  Rumors of Kzinti buying photon torpedo instruction manuals on the black market have yet to beproven as true 

[Hexx]

Hexx, afaik, there is no source in the SFB literature that explicitly states the exact number of DN's that the Feds built (I could be wrong, I just haven't seen or heard of one).  I do have a theory, though...

ItA few side notes;  the third CVA you were thinking of is the Zhukov.  Also, you should check your numbers on the BCH's; the Feds built 10, the Klinks 10...actually, the Feds built eleven.  You are missing BCS-1766 Lemuria.

OK I'll take your word for it, R5 lists the Fed BCS Atlantis suggesting there was only one ship, and
teh text description under the BCS mentions the "second BCV Atlantis was either completead as, or converted to this design"

Of course the prvious entry on hte Fed BCV says that the Atlantis was completed as the second BCV, so I guess that's
what I get for assuming they made any real effort at continuity. 

[CaptJosh]

Its made of lines, as opposed to a plane or a mathematical point. Vectors that are normal to the line ship can also be calculated using vector calculus in n-dimensions.

<places check mark next to "prime tbomb candidate">

<Places Hexx on and makes an additional note for Tracy's "Cats to make into rugs" list. the entry reads "Hexx--should make a nice door mat">