Topic: *Planet* Ceres likely to have more fresh water than earth does

[FPF-SCM_TraceyG_XC]

This is very true. The martian gravity isnt strong enough to stop oxygen from leaking away into space, but as you say, this process will take millions of years. There is a lot of oxygen on Mars alaready, the problem is that it is all bound up in H20 and CO2. The oxygen in CO2 can be released by photosynthesis but this too would take 100s if not 1000s of years to create an Earth like atmosphere (maybe even millions).

Technology would have to provide oxygen replenishing in the short term. Hydrolysis of water perhaps in huge solar power stations, or sliding a chunk of ice comet through the martian atmosphere. Either way though, a sustainable ecosystem would need to be established to maintain the oxygen level, and aside from transplanting entire rain forests from the Earth (we cant even mainatin our own level of flora anyway), that process will still take a very long time, probably not in our lifetimes 

[Stormbringer]

This is very true. The martian gravity isnt strong enough to stop oxygen from leaking away into space, but as you say, this process will take millions of years. There is a lot of oxygen on Mars alaready, the problem is that it is all bound up in H20 and CO2. The oxygen in CO2 can be released by photosynthesis but this too would take 100s if not 1000s of years to create an Earth like atmosphere (maybe even millions).

Technology would have to provide oxygen replenishing in the short term. Hydrolysis of water perhaps in huge solar power stations, or sliding a chunk of ice comet through the martian atmosphere. Either way though, a sustainable ecosystem would need to be established to maintain the oxygen level, and aside from transplanting entire rain forests from the Earth (we cant even mainatin our own level of flora anyway), that process will still take a very long time, probably not in our lifetimes 

  The primary oxygen replenishment on earth is actually the algae in the ocean. under the right circumstances in the presence of suspended iron its' already prodigious reproductive rate can be multiplied a thousand fold. this does not rest on nanotech or genetic tampering. such methods could provide other organisms or self replicating micro-machines to free the oxygen and even warm the soil.  i do not think it must necessarily take thousands of year or even hundreds. admittedly the long estimate is more conservative and therefore more likely to be true but with effort the short estimates can be made true none-the-less.

[FPF-SCM_TraceyG_XC]

This would be very nice to see happen 

[Ravok]

The moon has enough water in the shadow of polar craters to fill the great lakes many times over. it is unnecessary to bring water from anywhere to the moon. same thing for Mars except ther is even more water. the only reasons to bring Ceres there is to populate the atmosphere with more oxygen and to use the other mass to increase the gravity. Ceres would otherwise be better off where it is to act as a way station to the outer solar system and for fueling mining operations in the belt. Of course i favor terraforming mars to include adding mass to increase the gravity or using the mass of asteroids, kuiper and Oort objects to construct a planet from scratch in the life zone of the sun. bombarding Mars with additional mass is problematic on ethical and scientific grounds by reason of anihilating any trace of exobiology if it exists and obliterating the geological record. building a planet from scratch though more difficult has none of those drawbacks.

 Storm did they actually find the water yet? I remember some satilite mission a few years back where they didn't find any in signifigant amounts. 

 They even crashed one into the craters, in hopes revealing some buried, at the bottom of a crater. and still not the amounts expected.

[Stormbringer]

The moon has enough water in the shadow of polar craters to fill the great lakes many times over. it is unnecessary to bring water from anywhere to the moon. same thing for Mars except ther is even more water. the only reasons to bring Ceres there is to populate the atmosphere with more oxygen and to use the other mass to increase the gravity. Ceres would otherwise be better off where it is to act as a way station to the outer solar system and for fueling mining operations in the belt. Of course i favor terraforming mars to include adding mass to increase the gravity or using the mass of asteroids, kuiper and Oort objects to construct a planet from scratch in the life zone of the sun. bombarding Mars with additional mass is problematic on ethical and scientific grounds by reason of anihilating any trace of exobiology if it exists and obliterating the geological record. building a planet from scratch though more difficult has none of those drawbacks.

 Storm did they actually find the water yet? I remember some satilite mission a few years back where they didn't find any in signifigant amounts. 

 They even crashed one into the craters, in hopes revealing some buried, at the bottom of a crater. and still not the amounts expected.

If i recall correctly a eurpoean orbiter found significant amounts water ice in the polar craters even comparingthem to the volume of the great lakes. an american one had previously found hints but no conclusive evidence.

[Stormbringer]

the first probe an american one was known as the lunar prospector. here is an article:  http://www.asi.org/adb/m/03/08/01/lunar-ice.html

I cannot find the second one on the european follow up. but Aricebo radio surveys later did not find evidence to back up the first two probes mentioned.

[FPF-SCM_TraceyG_XC]

Actually no, water has not been discovered on the Moon at all to date.

http://www.universetoday.com/am/publish/water_on_moon.html?2042005

But there are still high hopes for it.

[FPF-SCM_TraceyG_XC]

http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2005/14apr_moonwater.htm

"In 2008, NASA plans to send a new spacecraft to the Moon: the Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter (LRO), bristling with advanced sensors that can sense water in at least four different ways. Scientists are hopeful that LRO can decide the question of Moon water once and for all."

[Ravok]

 Thanks Tracy & Bear. I live for this stuff.

[RazalYllib]

IIRC from years and years ago, I read an piece on mars terraforming...the gist was slam a comet or two...preferably w/ high water content. 

Seed said target w/ tailored lichen that is very high albedo and engineered to optimize O2 seeding.  Bake in the sun for couple thousand years and there will be an athmosphere.

My prob w/ Mars Terraforming is simply that in the long run, as Sol is Main Sequence, Mars is not far enough away to be a nice place to set up shop when we go red giant.  Titan looks like a good choice, though we would have to cut the umbilicus to the sun as the source of power.

[Commander Maxillius]

how hard would it be to jump-start Jupiter?

[Stormbringer]

how hard would it be to jump-start Jupiter?

 I used to think Jupiter was on the brink  of starhood due to reading too much science fiction and listening to too many science popularizers but the truth is Jupiter could swallow saturn, uranus and neptune and still not reach the requisite mass to become a star. 

[FPF-SCM_TraceyG_XC]

how hard would it be to jump-start Jupiter?

 I used to think Jupiter was on the brink  of starhood due to reading too much science fiction and listening to too many science popularizers but the truth is Jupiter could swallow saturn, uranus and neptune and still not reach the requisite mass to become a star. 

Jupiter is sometimes referred to as a failed star. The majority of star systems have multiple stars, our solar system is an exception rather than a typical example. Perhaps Jupiter came close to becoming our Sun's companion star. Jupiter radiates more heat energy than solar radiation falling on it, some people have theorised that while Jupiter is below the critical mass at which a star "switches on", some thermonuclear reactions maybe taking place at its core.

[Stormbringer]

how hard would it be to jump-start Jupiter?

 I used to think Jupiter was on the brink  of starhood due to reading too much science fiction and listening to too many science popularizers but the truth is Jupiter could swallow saturn, uranus and neptune and still not reach the requisite mass to become a star. 

Jupiter is sometimes referred to as a failed star. The majority of star systems have multiple stars, our solar system is an exception rather than a typical example. Perhaps Jupiter came close to becoming our Sun's companion star. Jupiter radiates more heat energy than solar radiation falling on it, some people have theorised that while Jupiter is below the critical mass at which a star "switches on", some thermonuclear reactions maybe taking place at its core.

I beleive that that is now accepted as true:  that there is  intermitent fusion going on down in there.

[Ravok]

"My prob w/ Mars Terraforming is simply that in the long run, as Sol is Main Sequence, Mars is not far enough away to be a nice place to set up shop when we go red giant.  Titan looks like a good choice, though we would have to cut the umbilicus to the sun as the source of power"

 That far in the future,Thats assuming we survive the colision with the Andromededa Galaxy. 
 
 If we don't Kill ourselves off by then.

[Dracho]

If you believe the folks who claim to have discovered planets in other solar systems, Jupiter is actually a fairly small gas giant.  Some have been found which are supposed to be several dozen times Jupiter's size & mass.

I say that with a grain of salt because nobody has acutally visually detected one yet, making them theoretical planets based on stellar wobble, which might have another cause.

[E_Look]

Thank you, Dracho.

People always scream when I say that.  These " 'extrasolar' planets" have yet to be cirectly seen by anyone!

[Dracho]

Thank you, Dracho.

People always scream when I say that.  These " 'extrasolar' planets" have yet to be cirectly seen by anyone!

They probably are planets, but we should know within a decade, as they are trying really, really hard to get a picture of one.  No reason not to assume the galaxies aren't full of planets, but we need to actually see it to verify.

[Stormbringer]

Actually at least two have been seen (detected) directly if i recall correctly. and one of those was not a hot jupiter but a terrestrail around a pulsar. the other was a gas giant that had been ejected from it's star system and was wandering alone.