Topic: Martian sand dunes full of ice.  (Read 7604 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline FPF-SCM_TraceyG_XC

  • Empress of the Empire
  • Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 2543
  • Gender: Female
Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #20 on: September 15, 2005, 11:31:54 am »
That erroneous idea, that there are "canals" on Mars came from the descriptions of the Italian astronomer Schiaparelli, who of course, spoke Italian and called them canali, meaning "channels" (not the mascarpone filled dessert, you chowhounds) and English speakers took off too far with the term.  "Canal" implies an artifice, a man-made channel, whereas this latter term is more general and includes natural formations.

Open channel D, open channel D.

This is absolutely true, but further more, even these "channels" were later identified to be optical illusions. There are no channels or canals on Mars at all.

The science fiction writer, Edgar Rice Burroughs took up the theme of canals on Mars and wrote a series of books about Martian adventures that became popular at the time. They were written from 1917 to 1964, 11 books in all, and he is often compared with H.G. Wells and H. Rider Haggard. Burroughs is most well known for the creation of the character Tarzan who featured in 24 of his novels.

It is well known today that there is in fact a huge amount of water on Mars. Most of it is locked up as frozen ice mixed in with dry ice (drozen carbon dioxide) in the polar regions of the planet. It is also thought that a lot of of frozen water ice is buried in the permafrost of the surface and were all the water to melt on Mars, it would create a planet wide ocean 13 kms deep.

The temperature on Mars ranges from -200C in winter to a balmy -20C in summer. Flowing liquid water, id therefore, not an unreasonable prospect to have occurred on the surface of the planet, especially in its past when the planet was warmer.
Captain FPF-TraceyG, Federation Protection Fleet


SFC2.net Admin member
SFC3.net Admin member
Voting member of the DGA
Member of XenoCorp, Squadron Commodore

Offline Stormbringer

  • Global Moderator
  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 1984
  • Gender: Male
Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #21 on: September 17, 2005, 12:49:15 am »
Those temperatures are true means. but the record observed temperature at the equator was 80 degrees farenheit. Definitely human friendly and definitely water friendly. unfortunately it was very brief and very much rare.  Still it shows that Mars can achieve that temp even at that distance with that atmosphere. this obviosly has implications for terraforming efforts.

Offline Death_Merchant

  • Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 3639
  • Gender: Male
Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #22 on: September 19, 2005, 10:02:26 am »
Temperature is not the only factor....

PV=nRT

Martian atmospheric pressure is on average only about 7 millibars (less than 1% of Earth's).
While on Earth liquid water can exist between 0 and 100C, on Mars it's limited to 0 to 10C.
And that 0-10C range is in the most favorable high pressure places (~ 9 millibar).

Don't like that little trip back down Chemistry 101 lane? Doesn't make sense?!?
Take a gander at the high-altitude cooking directions for the box of Hamburger Helper you made for dinner for a reality check (Hamburger Helper? come on guys, fess up....you know who you are...). And that's for something like 9000 ft (ie still almost 9X Martian pressure).

You'll not be making noodles on Mars.....



"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and is widely regarded as a bad move." - Douglas Adams (1952-2001)

Offline Stormbringer

  • Global Moderator
  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 1984
  • Gender: Male
Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #23 on: September 19, 2005, 01:31:04 pm »
Thanks DM. I'm aware of all that. I'm just saying even as far away from the sun as Mars is, even with that atmosphere (including pressure) temperatures as high as 80 degrees were recorded by the vikings and other probes. even out there there is a balmy sunny day awaiting.

Offline Commander Maxillius

  • You did NOT just shoot that green sh-t at me?!?
  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 2299
  • Gender: Female
Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #24 on: September 19, 2005, 07:52:46 pm »
Even if the atmosphere somehow gets to earth's pressure, or something similar, how thick is the atmospheregoing to have to be to maintain a comfortale temprerature, if it's even possible?  Or would we be confined to the equatorial zones?
I was never here, you were never here, this conversation never took place, and you most certainly did not see me.

Offline Stormbringer

  • Global Moderator
  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 1984
  • Gender: Male
Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #25 on: September 19, 2005, 08:00:15 pm »
Even if the atmosphere somehow gets to earth's pressure, or something similar, how thick is the atmospheregoing to have to be to maintain a comfortale temprerature, if it's even possible?  Or would we be confined to the equatorial zones?

 That depends on several factors any one of which or combination of which can stabilize the temperature on mars.

atmospheric pressure.
type of gases present
dstance from sun
convection currents in atmosphere and or oceans.
active tectonics and radioactive isotopes in core, mantle and crust

as you know on earth all of these are interrelated and cooperate to give us our liveable biosphere.

on mars it would not take much because it does ocasionally get to 80 degrees anyway without a complex interrelated feedback system like we have.

Offline E_Look

  • Grand High Scribe
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 6446
Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #26 on: September 19, 2005, 09:04:58 pm »
Mars has much, much less mass than Earth.  How would the extra atmospheric mass be kept around the planet without it floating off into outer space?  (I mean it doesn't have a strong enough gravitational field.)

Offline Stormbringer

  • Global Moderator
  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 1984
  • Gender: Male
Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #27 on: September 19, 2005, 09:11:37 pm »
Mars has much, much less mass than Earth.  How would the extra atmospheric mass be kept around the planet without it floating off into outer space?  (I mean it doesn't have a strong enough gravitational field.)
True but as DM calculated it would take 16 million years for it to go away. that is many orders of magnitude greater than the entire existence of our species let alone civilization. plenty of time. even enough to solve that problem if necessary.

Offline E_Look

  • Grand High Scribe
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 6446
Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #28 on: September 19, 2005, 10:28:29 pm »
Oops.  I should read more!  Apologies to DM.

Offline Stormbringer

  • Global Moderator
  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 1984
  • Gender: Male
Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #29 on: September 19, 2005, 10:33:29 pm »
Oops.  I should read more!  Apologies to DM.


Nah. I think he did it in my original "let's build a planet thread" back before the taldren change over to Dnet.

Offline E_Look

  • Grand High Scribe
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 6446
Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #30 on: September 19, 2005, 10:38:34 pm »
No excuse.  I think I was following that thread, too, before it got kind of... long...

Offline Stormbringer

  • Global Moderator
  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 1984
  • Gender: Male
Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #31 on: September 19, 2005, 10:49:09 pm »
Thats because it was good!  :P

Offline FPF-SCM_TraceyG_XC

  • Empress of the Empire
  • Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 2543
  • Gender: Female
Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #32 on: September 20, 2005, 12:17:27 am »
Mars has much, much less mass than Earth.  How would the extra atmospheric mass be kept around the planet without it floating off into outer space?  (I mean it doesn't have a strong enough gravitational field.)



The Moon With an Atmosphere

Even before the Voyager encounters with Saturn, astronomers thought that Titan might have an atmosphere. They also thought that there might be oceans of liquid methane on the Moon's surface. When the Voyager spacecraft finally arrived, all that could be seen of Titan was a dense and impenetrable layer of clouds in a thick atmosphere. Titan was found to have an atmosphere more dense than that of Earth and Mars. The atmospheric pressure at the surface is believed to be about 1.6 bars, about 60% greater that on Earth. The atmosphere is composed primarily of Nitrogen with traces of other hydrocarbons such as ethane, hydrogen cyanide, and carbon dioxide. This gives it a rich, orange color. These atmospheric elements are necessary building blocks for life. Astronomers believe that Titan may resemble the Earth at an early stage in its development. They also think that Titan is a prime candidate for the possibility of extraterrestrial life. Titan's surface temperature averages -289°F (-178° C).

http://www.seasky.org/solarsystem/sky3g7.html

Mars is most definately capable of supporting an atmosphere that has the same pressure as Earth.

Captain FPF-TraceyG, Federation Protection Fleet


SFC2.net Admin member
SFC3.net Admin member
Voting member of the DGA
Member of XenoCorp, Squadron Commodore

Offline Dracho

  • Global Moderator
  • Rear Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 18289
  • Gender: Male
Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #33 on: September 20, 2005, 10:15:32 am »
If you threw ceres at mars, wouldn't it have water and a whole bunch more mass?

It might be a hundred years before the dust settles.. but..
The worst enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan.  - Karl von Clausewitz

Offline E_Look

  • Grand High Scribe
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 6446
Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #34 on: September 20, 2005, 10:36:18 am »
You might just wind up with broken pieces of meatballs if you stir the pot too hard!

Offline Stormbringer

  • Global Moderator
  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 1984
  • Gender: Male
Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #35 on: September 20, 2005, 01:19:54 pm »
If you threw ceres at mars, wouldn't it have water and a whole bunch more mass?

It might be a hundred years before the dust settles.. but..

better throw it a bit at a time.

Offline Death_Merchant

  • Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 3639
  • Gender: Male
Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #36 on: September 20, 2005, 10:24:44 pm »
What the heck are you guys talking about?!?

We can't even terraform Cleveland.
"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and is widely regarded as a bad move." - Douglas Adams (1952-2001)

Offline E_Look

  • Grand High Scribe
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 6446
Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #37 on: September 20, 2005, 10:28:07 pm »
Well, at least if there is water on Mars or Ceres, it won't catch on fire.  :P  ::)  ;D

Offline Commander Maxillius

  • You did NOT just shoot that green sh-t at me?!?
  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 2299
  • Gender: Female
Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #38 on: September 21, 2005, 10:50:18 pm »
0 to 100 is a shorter distance than -60 to 100 :p


which is to say starting from scratch is easier than fixing Cleveland
I was never here, you were never here, this conversation never took place, and you most certainly did not see me.

Offline E_Look

  • Grand High Scribe
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 6446
Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #39 on: September 21, 2005, 11:26:06 pm »
I'll never forget that image... I was hoping it WAS a alien planet!