Topic: Martian sand dunes full of ice.  (Read 7605 times)

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Offline Nemesis

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Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« on: September 07, 2005, 09:48:32 am »
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Earth has plenty of these ice-rich sand dunes, which tend to form distinctive features, such as overhanging cornices, which cannot form in arid sand. According to the FT some of the best examples can be found in Alaska and Antarctica.

By studying high resolution snaps of the Martian surface, Bourke was able to identify many of these features in the North Polar Sand Sea and southern crater dune fields, and so conclude that Mars boasts similar niveo-aeolian deposits.

Some of the dunes might contain substantial quantities of water, she predicts. One in particular, which, at four miles long by 1,558 feet high, is the largest dune in the solar system, could be as much as 40 or 50 per cent H2O in its upper layers.
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Offline prometheus

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Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2005, 10:55:01 am »
Humanity is never going to give up hope of finding life on Mars... 


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Offline Iceman

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Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2005, 11:29:03 am »
Why should we? You've got to have something to shoot for.
I believe this belongs to you. -Commander Sheehan to Imperial Captain Smithy
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Offline Nemesis

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Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2005, 11:32:18 am »
Humanity is never going to give up hope of finding life on Mars... 

We will find it. 

Even if we have to terraform Mars to do so. 
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Offline prometheus

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Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2005, 12:18:53 pm »
Who cares if there's life on Mars?  As long as there's life on Earth, that's good enough for me...  I do think we should explore Mars of course, I think we should explore the whole solar system, but I think life on Mars is a pipe dream...

I have serious doubts over whether the canals on Mars were created by water at all...   Just because they look like riverbeds and canyons on Earth doesn't mean they were created in the same way...   They also are strikingly similar to the rilles on the moon, and the moon has never had large amounts of water on it... 

Mars is interesting to me in the answers it can give concerning the origins of the solar system, and when we explore the solar system it should be a search for enlightenment and experiences, not mirrors of our own form of life...


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Offline E_Look

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Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2005, 11:02:15 pm »
That erroneous idea, that there are "canals" on Mars came from the descriptions of the Italian astronomer Schiaparelli, who of course, spoke Italian and called them canali, meaning "channels" (not the mascarpone filled dessert, you chowhounds) and English speakers took off too far with the term.  "Canal" implies an artifice, a man-made channel, whereas this latter term is more general and includes natural formations.

Open channel D, open channel D.

Offline Nemesis

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Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2005, 02:54:57 am »
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The new company, 4Frontiers, plans to mine Mars for building materials and energy sources, and export the planet's mineral wealth to forthcoming space stations on the moon and elsewhere.

The company also wants to build the first permanent human settlement on Mars, using strictly Martian materials, as early as 2025.

The idea is to make Mars a center for needs of the solar system economy, said Bruce Mackenzie, co-founder of 4Frontiers and the company's vice president and outreach director.

"Mars happens to be a good place for these crucial minerals," said Mackenzie. "You have them all in one spot."

"Carbon, nitrogen and hydrogen are all scarce on the moon, but readily available on Mars," said Joseph Palaia, 4Frontiers' other co-founder and vice president of operations and research and development. And while oxygen is available in both locations, "it is easier to extract on Mars," he said.


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Offline prometheus

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Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2005, 03:51:44 am »
That erroneous idea, that there are "canals" on Mars came from the descriptions of the Italian astronomer Schiaparelli, who of course, spoke Italian and called them canali, meaning "channels" (not the mascarpone filled dessert, you chowhounds) and English speakers took off too far with the term.  "Canal" implies an artifice, a man-made channel, whereas this latter term is more general and includes natural formations.

Open channel D, open channel D.

A lot of scientists even today are fairly convinced that the rilles on Mars were created by water...  I think it's a bit early to do anything more than keep an open mind on that subject...  One of the trains of thought that leads to most erroneous theorizing is the notion that because a phenomenon looks similar to something familiar, it must be related to it in some way.  This is not always the case...


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Offline Death_Merchant

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Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2005, 10:21:58 am »
DM's Waterless Alternate Theories for Observed Features of Martian Dunes

1) That sticky goo always dripping off those pesky aliens
2) Somebody is using Lowell's telescope again....
3) Cloaking device distortion from a Romulan base
4) Prankster hosed down new construction in NASA's "Mars fake landing soundstage" in Area 51
5) UK rag takes cocktail comment from enthusiast at poorly attended science festival and makes big splash via internet
6) How should I know? It's a freakin' another planet for goodness sakes!
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Offline Nemesis

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Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2005, 11:18:14 am »
There is more evidence than the dune shapes. 

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By measuring neutrons, it is possible to calculate the abundance of hydrogen on Mars, thus inferring the presence of water. The neutron detectors are sensitive to concentrations of hydrogen in the upper meter of the surface. Like a virtual shovel "digging into" the surface, the spectrometer allows scientists to peer into this shallow subsurface of Mars and measures the amount of hydrogen that exists there. Since hydrogen is most likely present in the form of water ice, the spectrometer is able to measure directly the amount of permanent ground ice and how it changes with the seasons.


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After completing its primary mission, Spirit drove about two miles from its landing site to the Columbia Hills, where it found rocks, older than the lava flows forming the floor of Gusev crater, that contained water-related minerals.

"Every single rock in the hills has shown alteration by liquid water," Squyres said.

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Offline prometheus

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Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #10 on: September 08, 2005, 11:47:22 am »
I agree, the presence of liquid water can be reasonably inferred, but there are other compounds that contain hydrogen...   I'm not saying that there was never water on Mars, merely that as far as I'm concerned, these are questions yet to be proven...   

I do think that life on Mars is a pipe dream though...  Even if there ever was any, I'm pretty sure it'll be gone by now...


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Offline Nemesis

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Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #11 on: September 08, 2005, 04:11:13 pm »
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Europe's Mars Express probe may have found evidence for a band of ice that once spanned the Martian equator.
Do unto others as Frey has done unto you.
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Offline Tus-XC

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Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2005, 07:17:17 pm »
I agree, the presence of liquid water can be reasonably inferred, but there are other compounds that contain hydrogen...   I'm not saying that there was never water on Mars, merely that as far as I'm concerned, these are questions yet to be proven...   

I do think that life on Mars is a pipe dream though...  Even if there ever was any, I'm pretty sure it'll be gone by now...

Aye there are other things that have hydrogen in them, but how many of them are as stable as dihydrogen oxide?  (actual question here as i really really hate chemistry), the only thing that comes to mind are CH3 and all them organic compounds, but that wouldn't  be to probably on mars me thinks
Rob

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Offline prometheus

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Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2005, 07:58:48 pm »
I agree, the presence of liquid water can be reasonably inferred, but there are other compounds that contain hydrogen...   I'm not saying that there was never water on Mars, merely that as far as I'm concerned, these are questions yet to be proven...   

I do think that life on Mars is a pipe dream though...  Even if there ever was any, I'm pretty sure it'll be gone by now...

Aye there are other things that have hydrogen in them, but how many of them are as stable as dihydrogen oxide?  (actual question here as i really really hate chemistry), the only thing that comes to mind are CH3 and all them organic compounds, but that wouldn't  be to probably on mars me thinks

I think you mean CH4 which is methane...  CH3 wouold not be stable as Hydrogen has valence 1 and Carbon valence 4...  To discover a planet with large quantities of oxygen and methane in it's atmosphere is what I believe you would call a "slam dunk" in the states...   The Martian atmosphere is like a test tube with all the chemical equations in it in a nice balanced dynamic equilibrium...  Actually all the planets in the Solar System are except one...   Three guesses what one, if you need them...


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Offline E_Look

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Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2005, 10:24:28 pm »
Gamma Hydra V?

Beta Iotia?

Talos IV?

Do I get my Star Cluster?

Offline prometheus

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Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2005, 04:04:52 am »
Gamma Hydra V?

Beta Iotia?

Talos IV?

Do I get my Star Cluster?

Those are objects in our Solar System?


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Offline E_Look

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Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #16 on: September 09, 2005, 10:49:31 am »
Hey, extra credit, man.

Offline Tus-XC

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Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2005, 10:58:58 am »
thanks for the correction prom... as i said i hate chemistry ;)
Rob

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Offline prometheus

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Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #18 on: September 09, 2005, 12:48:09 pm »
Hey, extra credit, man.


Straight to the top of the class... ;)     +1 back for having a sense of humour about my dodgy Neil Armstrong Joke... 


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Offline prometheus

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Re: Martian sand dunes full of ice.
« Reply #19 on: September 09, 2005, 12:50:30 pm »
thanks for the correction prom... as i said i hate chemistry ;)

Me too...   My Biochemical Scientist Dad talked me into studying it at University when I was younger...  Some drinking spree that was...   :o


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