Topic: R-NHK vs F-CB

[Julin Eurthyr]

So it's a Command cruiser, right?   

You're such a dumbass

HEAVY HAWK

It'd be a Heavy Command Cruiser.

BTW was Corbo just being charming or are the "Heavy Hawks" actually considered BCH's?
I always though Heavy Hawk was just a designator for a ship bigger than a Firehawk, smaller than a DN.
(Course I don't have the module so..)

Actually, the Firehawk and all associated variants (Nova- Flambe- Royal- Regal- Thunder- Sun- Super- Killer- Peregrine etc. etc.) are of the "Heavy Hawk" vintage.

The main reason for that is that they provide information on the base hull without any modules, and each one of these ships (except maybe the maulers) can be pared down to the original / identical hull...

[762_XC]

BCH = command rating 10
CC/CCH = command rating 9

nuff said.

And yes, the CCZ is technically a command cruiser, although it can kill most battlecruisers.

[Corbomite]

Corbo, while being a real fokker sometimes you are still a damned funny fokker.[/size][/color]

<snicker>

 

I love you too boss. 

[Seanner]

Well the debate is over.  Seanner blew up Dizzy's CB with an NHK (due in no small part to continuous coaching by DieHard...you could say he was flying )  Nevertheless, this simple fact proves the superiority of the NHK, as Seanner is possibly the worst pilot ever.  Probably the highlight of the night was when I took a huge plasma hit (when we switched sides) because I had charged with a scatter pack and overloads trying to get lucky internals vs the Rom...to find that I'd used up my shuttle bay and so could not weasel away the torps.  Which I later was told doesn't work anyway, not to mention I did zero internals because I fired into a shift.  Sigh...  So if someone this dumb can win given an NHK, I would argue it must be the ship.

For the record, besides blowing up my Fed, Dizzy then slaughtered me 3 more times with a K-D7C vs my Lord Bishop CC thing.

Ok new tactics discussion:
K-D7C vs LBCC (3 hornetIIs)

As far as I could tell, hellbore dance = automatic win.  Everytime I lost I turned too far towards and started losing shields to T-bombs and scatterpacks and so on.  Since the 2 HBs can be fired over the shoulder, the range can be kept open all day.  I'm positive this analysis is completely wrong because the disruptors + phasers should do way more damage to my rear shield and I should rack up internals quicker, implying that I should use fusions and HET and blast away if he chases like that...but then it was mentioned that the Klink can tractor me outside of good fusion range.  I could repel I suppose.

Actually I thought fusions + gattlings were what decided tactics and he should run from ME, but the thing is that hellbores reload much too slow to be chasing someone at high speed... and the fusions don't instantly win the game should he come in for a pass after you shoot hellbores, and I often lost a gattling before getting close enough.  It really just seems that with the slower loading yet excellent long range weapons *I* should be the one running and shooting over the shoulder, and not even bother arming the fusion.

This game is too hard!

Surely someone knows how this battle should be fought??

P.S. Thanks again to all who flew!!

[762_XC]

I'll show you after I move.

P.S. Hellbore dance by itself is more likely to be an automatic loss. Klingons are just better at that stuff.

Hydran is all about timing. Know when to be passive (dance), and when to be aggressive (charge).

[Dizzy]

Well... the CB doesnt really stand a chance vs the NHK. And you did an excellent job, Seanner, to prove it.

Despite my 3x mess ups:
A, accidently wasted a scatter at range 30, hehe. That's ok, tho cuz it was funny how your mine still managed to miss it.
B, HET'd to fire a full alpha at under 9, and all went well till I realized to my horror that my photons were set to proxy, lol. I unfortunately turned back into you (greedy) to fire them and took a 28 point internal from the plasma I couldnt outrun because of my mistake.
C. I had to ES in a corner because my HET never started (misclicks kill you) and I was about to fly off. I ate 2 S torps and an F. But luckily... my shields regenerated and that mistake 15 minutes into the fight didnt make that much a difference and hour later when it was over.

Your mistakes: You eat Tboms too often. Know when to get close while chasing and when not to. Your losing your front shields to my tbombs so early in the match is likely why the fight lasted an hour.

To your credit, you consistently frustrated me as I had to turn off my loaded photons 3 times during the match because of your excellent chasing and psuedo tactics. You didnt give me time/chance to turn in to fire.

You, however, didnt kill me, I disengaged, but not before giving you every opportunuty to do so. Lesson: Know when to take a bloody nose if you can come out with a bigger better trade off... or the kill for that matter. You were not aggressive enough and gave me way too much respect at times especially at the end and I slipped thru your fingers when you should have easily taken me.

GG's Seanner. You are catching on.

Oh, and DH, it didnt help to call out aloud everytime you knew I was about to pull a stunt. He aint gonna learn unless he experiences it. Other than that, great coaching. A few more nights like tonight and he will be ready for Hexx...

[Dizzy]

Hydran is all about timing. Know when to be passive (dance), and when to be aggressive (charge).

Our last match I tried to teach him that... I told him to control the match, be more aggressive and chase more, but he settled back into his comfortable routine of saber dancing. I did show him an aggressive move. He performed it... and got a Tbomb bukakke. At least he learned two things, I think he knows now to ES when a buncha mines are in his path instead of running them all down, or to either wait to be aggressive till after your opponent has used up his scatters and mines. But at least he learned the aggressive move.

Seanner, here's a tip... Fly more aggressively. Each time you die you know just how much further you can push it. The more you fly defensively, passively, the more you resign the control of the battle to your opponent.

Diz

[Corbomite]

Hydran power management can be tricky. With two sets of HW to charge it can really eat up your power.

Remember that even though Fusions are a two turn weapon in firing rate, they are a one turn to charge weapon (after firing they need a turn to cool off). This means you can turn them off until you need them and then they are ready in one turn.

It also gives you one turn of extra power after firing if you are using them so you can plan tactics around that as well, i.e. fire them and then use the next turn to apply the power somewhere else until the Fusions are ready to arm again.

Hydrans also have a two shuttle launch rate which can be really useful against plasma. It will allow you to close with the ship and WW most of your opponents damage and still leave you in a good postion to crack a shield (one of Marcus' favorite tactics). This takes timing and practice. 50 points of Suicide Shuttle damage isn't bad either if you can get close enough to over run them.

Saber dancing with Hellbores is a good tactic... as long as you have cracked or severely damaged a shield first. One tactic is to turn the HB off and OL the Fusions for an initial pass at 8.99 or closer if possible. Fusions are not the greatest at that range, but combined with a Phaser salvo and a little luck you can weaken or down a shield, then peel off, turn off the Fusions and then HB them to death from a safer range. Once they are chewed up a bit, you close and give them a full dose of everything you have and let the fighters do the rest.

Fighter control is very important. Never commit them unless you are ready to follow up in a way that gives you the upper hand. If you are using them to decoy you and soak up fire, be ready to move in after they have been shot at (useful when you have a ship with a low fighter count i.e three or less). If you are using your ship to soak up damage in order to get the fighters close enough to damage/cripple your opponent be sure you set yourself up to minimize the damage to your ship and to give the fighters their optimum shot (useful when you have a ship with a good fighter count i.e. six or more). This is a hard sell with the Fusion fighters, but is a great tactic with the "never miss" HB fighters. If you do manage it with the Fusion fighters it will pretty much be game over. 762 mentioned most of this on TS, but it bears spelling out here. If you find you are launching fighters in a desperate attempt to save your ass, you have lost control of the fight. One more thing: The Defend Me setting is your best friend. The fighters will try to stay close to you and will attack at range (if able) and it gives your opponent more targets to worry about if you decide to just run up and give them hell.

Don't get Tractored. You can't launch fighters/shuttles when you are Tractored.

Don't forget about ESG/HB interaction when fighting Lyrans.

[Hexx]

Oh, and DH, it didnt help to call out aloud everytime you knew I was about to pull a stunt. He aint gonna learn unless he experiences it. Other than that, great coaching. A few more nights like tonight and he will be ready for Hexx...

Yeah I guess now that he's easily smacking you around he's getting closer to someone that may keep my interest in a fight.


Oh -Seanner, the ESG /Hellbore reaction that Corbo mentioned is simply that if you fire Hellbores at someone who has ESG's up
your ship will explode. Tragic really, but what can you do?
So remember to never, EVER, fire Hellbores at a Lyran ship
It'll make you look silly.


Hexx the helpful.

[Seanner]

Despite my 3x mess ups:
A, accidently wasted a scatter at range 30, hehe. That's ok, tho cuz it was funny how your mine still managed to miss it.

Wasn't that when I was the Hydran?  I remember missing TWICE, once because I put the Tbomb evidentally at range 1.99 or something and the second because I turned .01 degrees too far.  If I missed a THIRD time as the Rom then, like I said, I'm the worst pilot in the world.

B, HET'd to fire a full alpha at under 9, and all went well till I realized to my horror that my photons were set to proxy, lol. I unfortunately turned back into you (greedy) to fire them and took a 28 point internal from the plasma I couldnt outrun because of my mistake.

I really enjoyed that one

C. I had to ES in a corner because my HET never started (misclicks kill you) and I was about to fly off. I ate 2 S torps and an F. But luckily... my shields regenerated and that mistake 15 minutes into the fight didnt make that much a difference and hour later when it was over.

This is where I got confused.  At that point I was empty, and photons charge faster, so I figured to just rearm.  Should I have stayed and kept up the pressure??  What happens when you shoot me with 4 overloads and I shoot you with nothing though?  Best I can figure is if you are EVENTUALLY going to run away, you will take many Tbombs as pure internals at that point, and probably will lose a bunch of photons anyway.  If we each sat there at super close range than my shield reinforcement wins the day.  So I guess if you get stuck, I should castle right next to you?

Your mistakes: You eat Tboms too often. Know when to get close while chasing and when not to. Your losing your front shields to my tbombs so early in the match is likely why the fight lasted an hour.

Yeah I know now..it seems best to pseudo chase at around range 10.  What screwed me up is you slowed WAY down very early, and I didn't know whether to slow and stay behind or overrun or fire and turn off or etc...... In hindsight you didn't have the speed to outrun the plasma so I should've fired at maybe range 7-8 and taken minimal Tbombing in exchange for huge plasma damage, and then of course a phaser volley through the downed shield.

To your credit, you consistently frustrated me as I had to turn off my loaded photons 3 times during the match because of your excellent chasing and psuedo tactics. You didnt give me time/chance to turn in to fire.

Credit shmedit!  That's the easy part, just play very afraid of Dizzy.  If you hint that you are firing I shoot something.  Of course, that's why I wasted an alpha because of your STUPID TRICK of HETting in a circle.

You, however, didnt kill me, I disengaged, but not before giving you every opportunuty to do so. Lesson: Know when to take a bloody nose if you can come out with a bigger better trade off... or the kill for that matter. You were not aggressive enough and gave me way too much respect at times especially at the end and I slipped thru your fingers when you should have easily taken me.

Ha!  I didn't believe you were actually going to disengage!  Otherwise I would've just armed tractor, full speed overrun then ED to stay on the map.  I'm just happy with what I did otherwise.

Oh, and DH, it didnt help to call out aloud everytime you knew I was about to pull a stunt. He aint gonna learn unless he experiences it. Other than that, great coaching. A few more nights like tonight and he will be ready for Hexx...

Ooooooh damn you!  He only really reminded me of what I'd learned already.  MOST of what he said was to fire whenever you would start to turn towards, which is exactly what I was waiting for anyway.  I even ran into all those Tbombs despite him telling me not too.  Where he definitely directly saved me was once I started to lose my front shields I was going to keep chasing as best as I could, and he said just run parallel to keep up the pressure without actually exposing yourself...which of course is why the NHK is total BS.

In conclusion, I'm sorry I wasted so much time in that fight!  I hope you enjoyed it anyway

[Seanner]

Sounds good 762

Our last match I tried to teach him that... I told him to control the match, be more aggressive and chase more, but he settled back into his comfortable routine of saber dancing. I did show him an aggressive move. He performed it... and got a Tbomb bukakke. At least he learned two things, I think he knows now to ES when a buncha mines are in his path instead of running them all down, or to either wait to be aggressive till after your opponent has used up his scatters and mines. But at least he learned the aggressive move.

But see that's the thing...I still haven't learned when to do either because NEITHER worked.  EDIT: I mean being aggressive with either fusions or HBs...passive was always ok.  I hope I wasn't offending you by arguing with your advice repeatedly, it was that I kept blowing up whether I was agressive or passive.  If I chase I lose to Tbombs, if I don't chase then I cause internals every HB shot!  I had done what Corbomite said as it turns out..I had an overloaded HB, normal HB, and fusion that I alphad at range 8.99 (with phasers) doing good shield damage, at which point the saber dancing was causing internals every volley and I hadn't yet lost a shield.  If I haven't done to many AI fights since then I should have the autorecorded film to prove it!  Forgive me for being stubborn...I simply maintain that those tactics were working!  At which point you told me to be aggressive and I took a face full of bombs and scatterpacks.  I see what's going on here.  You are trying to get me to lose!

Honestly though it's not my intent to be stubborn!  I WANT to learn from all that Dizzy has to say.  Just so long as it doesn't get me blown up 5 seconds later.

[FPF-DieHard]

 Where he definitely directly saved me was once I started to lose my front shields I was going to keep chasing as best as I could, and he said just run parallel to keep up the pressure without actually exposing yourself...

Thank Corbomite for that . . .

. . which of course is why the NHK is total BS.

It is not BS, it is simply the Best of the CCH (Except for maybe the I-CAZ).   Every class of ship needs the best.

As a joke last night, t00l took a K-D7W and I took an G-MCC and he kicked my ass!!  7 Rear PH1 and 4 PH2 ripped me apart before I could even get close enough to do anything.  Should be interesting to try the NHK against the D7W, see if those extra 2 points of power makes a diference.

 
In conclusion, I'm sorry I wasted so much time in that fight!  I hope you enjoyed it anyway

PvP needs to be savored and not rushed.   Just keep a big cup on your desk in case you need to take a leak .  . .

[Seanner]

Woops, that was corbomite on the mic at that point?  Thanks corbo.

Yes let's do the NHK vs D7W, I want to try the Klingon this time.  All those phasers sound fun.

[Dizzy]

I WANT to learn from all that Dizzy has to say.  Just so long as it doesn't get me blown up 5 seconds later.

If you only followed my advice for that one mission, why on the other two were you pwnd so horribly if your tactics were working as you say? At least when you followed my advice we ended up slugging it out via tractor rotation. It was a nailbiter for a minute or so.

Bottom line there was to get you to try something different and see how it worked or not.

[FPF-DieHard]

Bottom line there was to get you to try something different and see how it worked or not.

You need to learn multiple styles of Flying and need to know when to do what. 

[Hexx]

I still say you don't need it.
I've *never* had a formal training session and look at me now.

BTW -Fly Lyran.
Really our ships are the most fun to fly.
They can do anything

[CaptJosh]

"they can do anything"

But they can't do anything well.

[Seanner]

But the point is I only got blown up when I closed the range!  Yes I lost every mission where "I did what I wanted" but only AFTER I stopped dancing.  At no point was I in danger at losing between ranges 8-16 that I was firing my HBs from.  All of my loses were caused by my closing the range.  Many of the times I closed were on my own volition, which is your point that I lost flying my own way, but the point is that it's not from hellbore dancing.  Now it may be that hellbore dancing shouldn't win in theory, but it was working against your responses in those games.  Unforuntely I don't have the films as I played at least 5 games vs the AI afterwards, but if you have them you can confirm that you were taking internals and I hadn't lost a shield yet.  The losses all came after turning in.

To Hexx: I forgot to reply earlier: I checked the manual thoroughly and could not find a single mention of the HB ship blowing up when it shoots the ESG fields.  I did see on one page's footnotes that if you ram a cloaked ship with them YOU blow up.





I would LOOOOVE to fly Lyran, except if I wanted disruptors I would fly Klingon and take more phasers and drones.  If I wanted ESG fields I'd fly Hydran and use fusions/gattlings to replace an offensive ESG and gattlings to replace the defensive ESG.  If I wanted no power while charging I'd fly Fed.  If I wanted stupid phasers I'd fly Lyran.  Oops.  There you have it, the Lyrans are worthless.


heheh

[Capt_Bearslayer_XC]

Oops. There you have it, the Lyrans are worthless.

Tell Firesoul that....

[762_XC]

It will take longer to lose the saber dance but you will lose it just the same. If you over-rely on those split arcs you show him your rear every time. Eventually it drops and the internals start racking up. Your weapons get miziaed, you run out of parts, and things get p00py real fast.

Chasing him all the time won't work either (as you discovered), because of all his transporters and rear firing phasers.

This is not to say the fight is hopeless by any means. It just becomes a question of timing, knowing when to use each tactic. Occasionally overloading and luring him into range 8 is a good middle ground, if he bites. Mix that up with the starndard range 15 saber, and try for an overrun when the timing is right. The timing is right if:

1) You are mostly loaded
2) He is mostly not
3) He is being aggressive, not running away from you
4) You think you can catch him by surprise

And don't forget a repel. That is VERY important.

If you died trying this against Dizzy it does not mean the tactic is invalid. It just means you have to work on your timing.

There is of course a third tactic, which is to castle. But I wouldn't recommend trying it until you familiarize yourself thoroughly with the moving battle.