Topic: R-NHK vs F-CB

[Seanner]

Yeah so the friday of two weeks ago involved me being trained by the very best.  Before you reply, I'm not talking to you Hexx.  Now then, the matchups were CB vs K-DW7 I believe and then CB vs NHK me taking every side in this.

CB vs DW7 seems ok

vs NHK...um speed 31 means about .2 power to recharge phasers unless you do something stupid like have no weasels or lowering shields because of HK.  So you cannot phaser boat, so you lose.  The best I could do was stay as far as possible and run NEAR 31 and use batts to use phasers enough to keep away, eventually having to HET out of there.  Eventually I was able to get away or weaseled or something...I remember chasing HIM with 4 overloads at some point and weaseling many a torp..eventually losing by mistakenly taking an S in the rear empty shield instead of either having another weasel ready or turning slightly....was pretty dumb on my part.

In any case, should not the NHK completely destroy the CB?  Once you get near a corner, the NHK can simply launch a pseudo, which if that fails, can launch one real to force me to turn further into the corner and then its game over.  The CB just doesn't have enough discretionary power.

The best case that I can come up with is trying some kind of range 8 overload shot (charging up the HET so that it activates JUST after firing) and running the return fire out as much as possible, or launching a probe and weaseling.  In which case the romulan is best launching one early torp (ballet) to convince me I should turn away while at the same time preventing me from weaseling his whole torpedo array, in which case I semi-run it out then try for range 8 again but which I won't be able to because of the terrible power.

Essentially, I can't run, and will take large amounts of torpedo damage, so the best bet is to get as close as possible, alpha strike, and try to probe and weasel the exact second he fires (no weasel if it's fake).  Maybe doing this enough times will net enough internals to win before I run out of shuttles, or before I take internals from him string launching so I can't weasel too well.

Oh I almost forgot the key, hit and running the big torps.

Anybody have any tactical advice in this matchup??  I'd say if you are the Fed, run off the map.

EDIT: In fact I don't know how much excess power the NHK has, but as you can't run and shoot from it really doesn't matter, as you still have to avoid plasma.

[Dfly]

I dont know the CB fed enough for an answer to that situation, but in the case of the Klink C7, in my experience the C7 wins almost every time.

EDIT:  shoulda mentioned the C7 vs NHK

[Farfarer]

In NHK against one Fed, he stayed away until his whole bay was aglow with WW.  Then it was a question of how close I would come to try and get plasma damage, seeing when he would void weasels, firing again etc. Of course, Photons can'r be decoyed ( notwithstanding ECM effects ), so he can hit back.

If he pooches it by the time the weasels are gone, he leaves ( not unlike a droner).  If it has been even, he hangs around - better shield regen etc.

I loathe the speed 31 ritual - I just leave the map - it is a game , not real (starship) life.  Even if I  'know' I can win by following a tried and true high speed doctrine, if it will take an hour - forget it.

[762_XC]

You don't have to do 31 if you knock his front down. A good proxy shot on his #1 will set you up for the running battle.

After he starts taking internals through the front you can slow a tad to let your capacitor charge, as he will be forced into an oblique pursuit.

If he keeps giving you the down front, use mines and drones to make him pay.

[FPF-DieHard]

Yeah so the friday of two weeks ago involved me being trained by the very best.  Before you reply, I'm not talking to you Hexx.  Now then, the matchups were CB vs K-DW7 I believe and then CB vs NHK me taking every side in this.

Hexx was busy that night following the Yellow-brick road, I had to do . . .

CB vs DW7 seems ok

One of theose "perfect" fights thaty give me a boner and keeps me playing this game

vs NHK...um speed 31 means about .2 power to recharge phasers unless you do something stupid like have no weasels or lowering shields because of HK.  So you cannot phaser boat, so you lose.  The best I could do was stay as far as possible and run NEAR 31 and use batts to use phasers enough to keep away, eventually having to HET out of there.  Eventually I was able to get away or weaseled or something...I remember chasing HIM with 4 overloads at some point and weaseling many a torp..eventually losing by mistakenly taking an S in the rear empty shield instead of either having another weasel ready or turning slightly....was pretty dumb on my part.

You CAN phaser boat in a 38 power ship, you just can't load everything at 31.   You need to damage his fronts enough so you don't have to run at perpetual 31, if he cannot chase in a straight line you can afford to go a little slower.   The CB has 8 labs, it's shield come back much better than the NHK (whcih preety much stay red) so you can affford to trade damage.   

In any case, should not the NHK completely destroy the CB?  Once you get near a corner, the NHK can simply launch a pseudo, which if that fails, can launch one real to force me to turn further into the corner and then its game over.  The CB just doesn't have enough discretionary power.

Don't get caught in a corner!   Pay atention to the map, this is doable in a 1v1.   A 2v2 is a auto-win for Plasma on the Evil Dave maps though.

The CB has 38 power, the NHK has 42.   If the NHK has Plasma's Held (2 Points Each) and the CB has it's Photons off, the AVAILABLE power is the same.

The best case that I can come up with is trying some kind of range 8 overload shot (charging up the HET so that it activates JUST after firing) and running the return fire out as much as possible, or launching a probe and weaseling.  In which case the romulan is best launching one early torp (ballet) to convince me I should turn away while at the same time preventing me from weaseling his whole torpedo array, in which case I semi-run it out then try for range 8 again but which I won't be able to because of the terrible power.

DO NOT use overloads unless he is castling.   You simply do not have the power to hold them, match EW, and move fast enough to avoid plasma.

Overloads can bust a castle up nice but stick to proxies when engaging plasma.

Essentially, I can't run, and will take large amounts of torpedo damage, so the best bet is to get as close as possible, alpha strike, and try to probe and weasel the exact second he fires (no weasel if it's fake).  Maybe doing this enough times will net enough internals to win before I run out of shuttles, or before I take internals from him string launching so I can't weasel too well.

You CAN run.  I'll show you again some time on IP games.   See the films below.

The WW "bait and switch" trick can work but is not reliable, should not be your "Plan A " tactic.

Oh I almost forgot the key, hit and running the big torps.

Not worth it in D2, 10 Spares is enough and you risk getting captured

Anybody have any tactical advice in this matchup??  I'd say if you are the Fed, run off the map.

PM me when you want to do more IP games.

Not all of these matchups are versus the NHK, but they all show what the CB can do against Plasma:

http://67.85.119.36:9000/images/films/Animator_KRCS.rec
http://67.85.119.36:9000/images/films/CB_versus_KWR_and_Mauler.rec
http://67.85.119.36:9000/images/films/Dizzy_RHK.rec
http://67.85.119.36:9000/images/films/EE_NHK.rec
http://67.85.119.36:9000/images/films/Ronnin_KRCS.rec

[Hexx]

Actually I think the CLC is better for fighting the NHK (I know you were all dying to know my opinion)

Kinda like DH said, use proxies at range, Ia ctually wouldn't even let him below rng 12 if possible,
sounds dumb (but then that's why I say it)- if you can keep him far enough away you don't need to constantly maintian
spd 31.
CB's lab regen is... annoying to say the least, I wouldn't worry about taking a plasma hit off of a shiled or two if
it gives you a decent shot.

Oh -and don't always rely on the probes, they're not 100% and can be fooled.

Really everything would be fine if those silly plasma races would just leanr to use real weapons.

[Seanner]

Ok thanks to all resident experts for replying
DieHard you ARE the best, my comment was aimed at Hexx knowing he would *assume* I was talking to him

Farfarer, that's kinda what I was thinking, but others seem to go with the phaser boat strategy as the later replies indicate.  I agree with the benefits of the shorter game, though.  Of course, I don't mind longer ones too much anyway since I'm still relatively new to this game and it's fun no matter what.

762 and DieHard I shall revert back to proxying and phaser-boating, unless...

...Hexx, are you suggesting then that it's worth an overload pass to take a hit on a side shield which will regen shortly enough anyway?  Exactly what type of "decent shot" are you looking for?

Lastly DieHard, as always your continued help is much appreciated and I would love future IP games later this week.  As for now I shall watch the demos.  BTW I thought I had dropped photons...I really thought it had almost no power beyond maintaining max speed, seems I screwed up there.

wait one more thing, I'll have to test out the CLC vs the (stupid) computer (who will probably alpha pseudo torp strike me right when the scenario opens)

[Corbomite]

Yeah so the friday of two weeks ago involved me being trained by the very best.

   



The NHK and RHK are considered Heavy Battle Cruisers (barely by my standards) so fighting them in a CB should be a bit of an uphill battle. With that said, I have beaten NHK's in a F-NAL. Try a CB against a R-KRCS instead.

[Bonk]

I agree with Corbomite, poor match-up. The R-NHK is nearly invincible in the hands of an experienced Rom player. You'd have a much better chance in a fed BCH, but they are so deadly slow while the R-NHK runs around at full speed arming all its plasma with full EW...  . You have to carry a big stick and catch the R-NHK captain sleeping to have a chance at beating it.

[Hexx]

Ok thanks to all resident experts for replying
DieHard you ARE the best, my comment was aimed at Hexx knowing he would *assume* I was talking to him

Farfarer, that's kinda what I was thinking, but others seem to go with the phaser boat strategy as the later replies indicate.  I agree with the benefits of the shorter game, though.  Of course, I don't mind longer ones too much anyway since I'm still relatively new to this game and it's fun no matter what.

762 and DieHard I shall revert back to proxying and phaser-boating, unless...

...Hexx, are you suggesting then that it's worth an overload pass to take a hit on a side shield which will regen shortly enough anyway?  Exactly what type of "decent shot" are you looking for?

Lastly DieHard, as always your continued help is much appreciated and I would love future IP games later this week.  As for now I shall watch the demos.  BTW I thought I had dropped photons...I really thought it had almost no power beyond maintaining max speed, seems I screwed up there.

wait one more thing, I'll have to test out the CLC vs the (stupid) computer (who will probably alpha pseudo torp strike me right when the scenario opens)

First- I'll point out DH  likes the CB better, and he is (for some reason) believed to be one of the better Fed pilots (I've always assumed some sort of group dementia but..)
I just prefer the CLC as it turns at 3.It's (imho) the best ship as it combines a decent turn mode with a pretty good power curve and the ability to soak up (some) damage. It's a flying style that (all jokes aside) either works very well or I get killed really really fast Which is the way I actually like my fights, I hate long drawn out fights that don't seem to be going anywhere .
< space for the smart ass remarks ..>

And yes- (again imho) it can be worth it to take a plasma volley (as long as you can catch it on at least two shields) to get a normal photon volley on one of his, an OL volley can pretty much win the game. That being said- if you screw up the timing (which I of course have done) you eat alot of plasma for little return.

Really it depends- if you have the patience for the long drawn out battles that DH prefers, use the CB, if you want to get into a turning close range knife fight use the CLC, - it will be over alot quicker, one way or the other.


I've managed to take out NHK's in CLC's..  and as I'm sure someone will point out- if I can do it..

[Seanner]

Theres one other issue that the stupid computer brought up flying around at speed 8 with a lot of reinforcement apparently...proxies do zero damage.  Lets say they are almost stopped with full reinforcement... a range 12.99 alpha if it hit with all proxies or two normals would do 16 + some phaser damage = zero...

EDIT: Hexx you got a replay of that?  ..if you can do it, with 50 yrs hard training I can possibly do it.  HA!  Just kidding, next d2 campaign watch out for Seanner...

[FPF-DieHard]

The NHK and RHK are considered Heavy Battle Cruisers (barely by my standards) so fighting them in a CB should be a bit of an uphill battle.

Are they really BCHs?   The Command rating is a 9, BCHs have a 10 and I always thought that was the deciding factor.  If they are BCHs by SFB standards, they are weak.

I know the Sunhawk is an NHK with 12 fighters (8 in SFC) and IS considered the Romulan BCV.

EDIT:   Just check the SITs, both the R-NHK and the F-BCF/G cost 10 EP to build.

[Corbomite]

I've managed to take out NHK's in CLC's..  and as I'm sure someone will point out- if I can do it..

The AI doesn't count <snicker>

[FPF-DieHard]

I agree with Corbomite, poor match-up. The R-NHK is nearly invincible in the hands of an experienced Rom player. You'd have a much better chance in a fed BCH, but they are so deadly slow while the R-NHK runs around at full speed arming all its plasma with full EW...  . You have to carry a big stick and catch the R-NHK captain sleeping to have a chance at beating it.

No, it's not that much of a mis-match.   I'd give the NHK a SLIGHT advantage but that's about it.

[FPF-DieHard]

Theres one other issue that the stupid computer brought up flying around at speed 8 with a lot of reinforcement apparently...proxies do zero damage.  Lets say they are almost stopped with full reinforcement... a range 12.99 alpha if it hit with all proxies or two normals would do 16 + some phaser damage = zero...

The CLC CANNOT break a Castling Rom, a CB has a much better chance of doing so. 

The Rom would have to be really fooish to allow a running battle against a CLC which has a better power curve unless the NHK captains downgraded his S torps.

[Corbomite]

The NHK and RHK are considered Heavy Battle Cruisers (barely by my standards) so fighting them in a CB should be a bit of an uphill battle.

Are they really BCHs?   The Command rating is a 9, BCHs have a 10 and I always thought that was the deciding factor.  If they are BCHs by SFB standards, they are weak.

I know the Sunhawk is an NHK with 12 fighters (8 in SFC) and IS considered the Romulan BCV.

EDIT:   Just check the SITs, both the R-NHK and the F-BCF/G cost 10 EP to build.

Like I said, not by my standards. The 42 power and their hulls make them BCH class, but their light Phaser suites puts them at the lower end. The Cloak is the thing that puts them up in the 192 BPV slot and therefore BCH worthy.

[Seanner]

So is it simply considered rude to castle with an NHK then or am I missing something?  How are you supposed to beat an uncrackable ship with a big alpha?

[FPF-DieHard]

So is it simply considered rude to castle with an NHK then or am I missing something? 

You should have been here for GW2   

How are you supposed to beat an uncrackable ship with a big alpha?

Very carefully 

Easiest way is to simply never close, the "twat" will eventually get bored and "come out of the closet."

[Corbomite]

So is it simply considered rude to castle with an NHK then or am I missing something?  How are you supposed to beat an uncrackable ship with a big alpha?

Brass balls. Now that is something DH can help you with.

[762_XC]

They are command cruisers, not BCH's.

Mind you they are very good command cruisers.