Topic: Maulers Cheesy or not?  (Read 3040 times)

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Offline _Rondo_GE The OutLaw

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Maulers Cheesy or not?
« on: September 06, 2005, 04:48:38 pm »
These are getting used more and more in PVP pickup battles.  Especially becoming quite frequent in MID era fleet battles.

In some cases you might see more than one.  In most cases the fleet without the mauler is at a serious disadvantage, unless the mauler fleet does not provide adequate protection to the mauler ship or the mauler fleet orders up too high a station speed and doesn’t allow the mauler ship to recharge its primary weapon.  The real advantage occurs when the "mauler fleet" slows down and starts to starcastle around the  mauler, protecting it's weak flanks.  The may do this after an initial "run" at your fleet at higher speeds meant to do some inital damage on one of your ships. 

Mauler ships do not come with a robust array of defensive and offensive subsystems like many CL's,  CA's or BCH's  (the BIG exception is the Lyran STL) but if used correctly they can be fairly dominant at their BPV in the same way the ROM WB+ can dominate it's respective BPV.   The difference is that a mauler cannot be weaseled away, cannot be hit and run, can apply damage to its opponent instantly from range and looks like it charges a LOT faster than an R torp.  In other words once the mauler ship gets a lock on you there is very little in the way of counter tactics available except perhaps a near perfectly timed HET.

I was told by one player that the narrow firing arc of the Mauler put it in the category of a "skilled" weapon to use.  My experience in some practice runs using the mauler was whatever skill this takes is fairly minimal in SFC.  If you slow down between speed 10 - 15 and put your helm on "auto follow" you should have little problem maintaining a lock on your opponent in most circumstances.   I practiced this with a fairly skilled Klingon pilot who atempted to sabre dance in and noticed I never once lost lock.  I even had time to hit the fridge and pop a Budweiser.  :)

One tactic that seemed to work briefly was a zig HET zag maneuver.    My Klingon would come in at an angle (actually an angled arc) and HEt at range 11 or 12 to the opposite angle slicing in under range 8.9 to deliver a phaser disr double salvo.  Then he would scoot out into mid range again.  He was able to break a shield and do some damage to my hull, but not my number one shield.  In return I was able to HET and counter strike for far more damage to his number 4 shield, a bad shield to lose for a Klingon.

The real skill in operating the mauler seems to derive from power management after firing your first salvo.  I notice a lot of Mauler pilots are not using reinforcements to their front shield and I found out myself that the Mauler wont charge if you try to reinforce that shield, or any shield for that matter.   Without consistent use of reinforcements the Mauler ship appears to be susceptible to PPD, Hellbore, Proxy and Enveloping Plasma attacks (R and S torp only due to range limitations on G torps).  It should be noted that R, S and PPD ships are pretty rare or non existent (PPD) except in pirates at some of the low BPV's these ships can play at.   

Anyway as an advisory to those playing online PVP I would say this is one ship that probably plays with retrictions in SFB and probably should in "real time" as well.  If you know you are going up against one you better start thinking of getting one yourself or, as an alternative, using fighters.

Offline Bonk

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Re: Maulers Cheesy or not?
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2005, 07:45:36 pm »
Not cheesy, they're maulers. In SFC/SFB speed is life. If you're fighting at spd 10-15 that is the problem. A mauler requires a cooperative enemy for more than one strike. A properly executed sabredance will chew a mauler to bits while taking little to no damage.

Offline _Rondo_GE The OutLaw

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Re: Maulers Cheesy or not?
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2005, 01:35:14 pm »
Not cheesy, they're maulers. In SFC/SFB speed is life. If you're fighting at spd 10-15 that is the problem. A mauler requires a cooperative enemy for more than one strike. A properly executed sabredance will chew a mauler to bits while taking little to no damage.


Hmmm....I assume by saying a "mauler is a mauler" you mean that in thye same way that a photon is a photon or a disrupter is a disrupter.  In other words just another standard weapon in the game.

But at least one set of rules suggest otherwise...

(S8.43) MAULERS: No more than one mauler can be included in the fleet; exception Andromedans (S8.221). Maulers never appear alone; there must be two non-mauler ships (or equivalents) in the battle force for each mauler; exception Andromedans (S8.221). These non-maulers may also be fulfilling other roles and requirements (flagship, carrier, escorts, squadron leader, squadron follower, scout, etc.). See (S8.65).

So why are there no similar rules like this for photons and disrupters? 

http://www.starfleetgames.com/sfb/sfin/S8.htm

There is nothing in my post that should suggest I fight my battles at 10 -15 as a rule.   Not implied anywhere in the post.  I state that the Mauler could and sometimes MUST fight at that lower speeds if it is to use its primary weapon to any great effect; actually it fights even better at slower speed if your the Romylan SPM. Coincidently ...or not...10 - 15 that also happens to be the optimum turning speed for most ships.  I said nothing about what speed ships should fight a Mauler at.  Saber Dancing is not done at slow speeds.

(As an aside I would say the "speed is life" cliche  isn't always apropos.  Speed also means less power available for reinforcement and defensive systems.  It's a nice adage for newbies but what they shoudl really tell players is Adaptability is Life; the ability to play all phases of the game when they are called for.  I know for a fact that one of the best SFC player to ever play the game (3rd Phoenix) used mostly slow and starcastling tactics and adapted to "speed" when neccessary.    This whole adage is overused in SFC...go to any pickup game and you will see most players  zooming around at speed 31 40%-50% of the time for no good reason at all.

To me there are only three kinds of speeds I relative to tactics.  Dominant Speed.  Effective Speed. And Minimal Speed.     

Dominant Speed is going faster than your opponent.  The greater difference in speed the greater dominance.

Effective speed is the optimum speed for combatting certain weapon types, especially seeking weapons.  For plasma speed 24 is effective speed and for drones a clik or two above drone speed...fast drones excepted. 

Minimal speed is for me the higest slow speed you can go while being able to perform whatever it is your going slow for. 

These are my terms bascially.

Anyway I got to go but I just want to say I see nothing in your response that supports your notion that the Mauler is NOT cheese or at least a rather imbalanced weapon that requires some skill to manage.

Offline Bonk

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Re: Maulers Cheesy or not?
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2005, 02:05:01 pm »
I am aware of SFB rules on maulers.

By saying "Not cheesy, they're maulers", I mean exactly that. They are extemely limited in application and definitely do not fare well solo, they must be used in a fleet if attempting to follow SFB CnC.

The mauler is not so much a weapon as a ship type in my view.

Speed is life no matter what, your opponent could select a R-NHK as his ship or H-TAR, both capable of a constant speed 31 while arming weapons and running EW.

The mauler is limited in speed as it takes a lot of power to arm it and while you do so, your enemy can pound you from range at high speed. Maulers are very limited and are therefore not cheese. They are most useful in a fleet on a base assault.

There are not similar rules for photons and disruptors because they are torpedo weapons and not maulers. Where is a mauler hit on the DAC - its not 11, I know that much...

Speed is life, maulers are not cheese - I cannot be any clearer than that.

If your ship needs to go less than speed 31 to arm its weapons it is vulnerable as there are plenty of ships that can arm their weapons at full speed. If you're looking for cheese, take a look at those ships.

Offline _Rondo_GE The OutLaw

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Re: Maulers Cheesy or not?
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2005, 03:37:32 pm »
I am aware of SFB rules on maulers.

By saying "Not cheesy, they're maulers", I mean exactly that. They are extemely limited in application and definitely do not fare well solo, they must be used in a fleet if attempting to follow SFB CnC.

The mauler is not so much a weapon as a ship type in my view.

Speed is life no matter what, your opponent could select a R-NHK as his ship or H-TAR, both capable of a constant speed 31 while arming weapons and running EW.

The mauler is limited in speed as it takes a lot of power to arm it and while you do so, your enemy can pound you from range at high speed. Maulers are very limited and are therefore not cheese. They are most useful in a fleet on a base assault.

There are not similar rules for photons and disruptors because they are torpedo weapons and not maulers. Where is a mauler hit on the DAC - its not 11, I know that much...

Speed is life, maulers are not cheese - I cannot be any clearer than that.

If your ship needs to go less than speed 31 to arm its weapons it is vulnerable as there are plenty of ships that can arm their weapons at full speed. If you're looking for cheese, take a look at those ships.

It's one thing to be clear its another to present an argument to convince me why I shouldn't have an opinion otherwise.

Charges?  You mean cools off.  It charges the moment it cools off if it has energy avaliable.   Unlike any other weapon it can "discharge" or be fired without being fully charged.   I cant take a phote and fire a half phote.  No other weapon can do that.   Would be nice though.

Sure I would agree tha it is limited in application...but that application is one of the most frequent scenarios in the game of SFC in Gamespy...the 2v2 or 3v3 "pickup game"... very similar to patrol battles in SFB,

(S8.0) PATROL SCENARIOS
CONDITIONS AND RESTRICTIONS

The majority of scenarios played by experienced SFB players are "patrol" scenarios, where one takes a given number of points and buys an appropriate fleet or squadron to use. Sometimes the players will bid (S3.4) for a certain position and buy their force with the points they bid. Patrol scenarios come under a variety of restrictions and conditions, many of which are expressed (some clearly, others more subjectively) in various rules.




Offline _Rondo_GE The OutLaw

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Re: Maulers Cheesy or not?
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2005, 04:50:47 am »
Anyway.  Whether it is a ship type or not is no matter really.

One vs One the mauler may have problems but as far as team play or fleet play goes, well protected as it should be, I think prudent players should be advised that unretricted use against unwary opponents  or those reluctant to use such a one dimensional ship should be given the chance to counter up front.