Topic: Real time SFC and Fed turn mode  (Read 2115 times)

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Offline Seanner

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Real time SFC and Fed turn mode
« on: August 26, 2005, 02:44:23 am »
...do not go well together.  I'm working through the cadet game of SFB that comes with SFC, and a huge key to the board game is that turns happen instananeously at 60 degree intervals, and due to the flight path restrictions of a hex map, flying 60 degrees off of a parallel course to your enemy keeps the range open just as well as the parallel one (e.g. with an FX firing arc, you would never get chased down during a saber dance, because every hex you go sideways at the sixty degree angle is another hex counted as range that your enemy has to eventually cover himself).  This also means as a fed you could dip into range 8 on an oblique and shoot overloads at a plasma ship and then run away the NEXT IMPULSE at speed 31...as if you were flying directly away from it because of the angle thing...essentially an infinitely fast course reversal...you can fly TOWARDS it at top speed into range 8, then never get closer than range 8 from then on!  Ridiculous!!

In SFC, this doesn't work because normal geometery is in effect.  Turn one degree away from your run-away-course and your enemy catches up.  With a typical Fed turn mode, you cannot hope to fire torpedoes without an HET at high speeds unless at extremely far ranges because your enemy will pretty much have overrun you by the time you start to turn towards him...

Of course, you can simply decelerate, and that's great when facing missile and plasma ships *cough*.  Even then it just takes too long to turn, that something like range 20 may not be enough.

I think SFC is a great game, and should by all means not be an exact replica of the pencil and paper version.  But it wouldn't hurt to boost the turn rates of all ships with an extra boost to the slower ones.  Disruptor ships should still turn faster, but it should be possible to fire overloaded photons at max range without overrunning the target one second later, or what is the point of having different ranges in the first place..

So many times in this game I plan on taking a specific range volley with certain weapons, only to have it degrade into a point blank alpha.  Much of the precision is lost because of the smooth, slow turns.

Along a similar vein but not as necessary it would be cool if the weapons charged as in SFB (instananeously).  One point for a phaser allows it to fire immediately, then it has to cool down for one turn (the rest of the current turn in SFB).  Or for photons...in SFB they essentially charge in one turn since you can fire them on the 33rd impulse...the photons should charge in one turn but then cool down for a turn...exactly as fusions work in SFC EDIT: not exactly, since you still have to pay energy each turn, the point is that you only have to wait one turn's worth of time before they are ready to fire from the time you started charging them.  This also allows for battery boosting of heavy weapons.  If you are closing and suddenly want an overload, you just click overload and bam it's ready...like using batteries in SFB.

Then I want every thing else in SFB added in, plus 10x more, plus one.

But at least boost turn rates.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2005, 02:57:19 am by Seanner »

Offline Mog

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Re: Real time SFC and Fed turn mode
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2005, 03:19:28 am »
"But it wouldn't hurt to boost the turn rates of all ships with an extra boost to the slower ones."

I believe this is the crux of your post above. The part in bold is where I think you go wrong. If you give the slower turning ships an extra boost, then they aren't slow turning any more, are they?

Now, I could see an argument for lowering the turn mode of all ships equally, i.e. turn mode D to C, B to A, and I guess A to AA (frigates turning like fighters? hmmm), but I doubt it would be agreed upon.

What's really behind your argument is the speed at which SFC is played as compared to the speed at which SFB is played. Try playing SFC at very low speeds, i.e. 4 or less. You'll then have more time to react. However, I can't see a dyna campaign being played out at those speeds.

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Offline SkyFlyer

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Re: Real time SFC and Fed turn mode
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2005, 04:12:15 am »
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However, I can't see a dyna campaign being played out at those speeds.


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Offline FPF-DieHard

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Re: Real time SFC and Fed turn mode
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2005, 09:51:09 am »
Fed ships turn fine.

Mog is right, it's all relative.
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Offline Dizzy

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Re: Real time SFC and Fed turn mode
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2005, 10:05:50 am »
Thank my 10 page flame thread way back on CW 6 (i think it ws that one) for adopting speed 8. Those CW whores were stuck on the boringish slow speed of 7 till I rallied the OP crowd when we had a server drought there and tried to 'merge' the two communities for that EAW server. Anyone remember that?

Mog, even speed 7 is too slow. 8 or 9, not that'd be good.

What about a speed 10 plasma only server?

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Re: Real time SFC and Fed turn mode
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2005, 10:12:53 am »
OMG this thread is a flashback.

Bottom line here Seanner: It's obviously a different game as far as tactics go. Some still work (the range 8 overload peel DOES work) and some don't. You will figure out which ones are which. Of course you are free to post here for discussion's sake, and you will find no shortage of takers. We old farts love to yak about tactics.

Most of the players here made the adjustment from hex map to real time years ago (in fact there was a very similar, and very LONG, thread posted back in '01). You will (I hope) do the same and find the game all the more enjoyable for it.


Offline Capt_Bearslayer_XC

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Re: Real time SFC and Fed turn mode
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2005, 10:15:00 am »
Fed ships turn fine.

Mog is right, it's all relative.

He-he.... yeah.... we seem to pull off oblique photon OL shots all the time....
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Offline Seanner

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Re: Real time SFC and Fed turn mode
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2005, 10:43:04 am »
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I believe this is the crux of your post above. The part in bold is where I think you go wrong. If you give the slower turning ships an extra boost, then they aren't slow turning any more, are they?

Not as slow.  A Klingon would still out-turn a Fed.  It would overall feel more like SFC3...so long as you aren't at range 2, you should turn fast enough to get in arc before being overrun.

Quote
Now, I could see an argument for lowering the turn mode of all ships equally, i.e. turn mode D to C, B to A, and I guess A to AA (frigates turning like fighters? hmmm), but I doubt it would be agreed upon.

That's what I'm saying, but I don't have exact numbers/letters.

Quote
What's really behind your argument is the speed at which SFC is played as compared to the speed at which SFB is played. Try playing SFC at very low speeds, i.e. 4 or less. You'll then have more time to react. However, I can't see a dyna campaign being played out at those speeds.

Not true!  Regardless of the speed of the game, my argument is the difference in geometery causes a big difference for ships trying to turn.  Even at game speed 1, the instant you start peeling off of r8 volley your opponent is still barreling in at speed 31, and you will be close to overrun in a slow turning ship, or just as important, you will take far more plasma damage.  It's not a question of reaction time.  It's that in SFB the instant you peel off, you are ALREADY a full 60 degrees around, and even at this "reverse oblique" angle you are in fact running away with maximum effiency....as if you were running directly away....due to the hex nature.

I still use Feds as best I can and like I said, it's still a great game so not changing anything will sit fine with me, but my point is that it's much harder to get a second photon volley in SFC than SFB without using an HET.

Offline KBF-Crim

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Re: Real time SFC and Fed turn mode
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2005, 10:58:31 am »
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It would overall feel more like SFC3

Played it...

These are star ships....not star fighters...

No thank you. 8)

Offline Capt_Bearslayer_XC

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Re: Real time SFC and Fed turn mode
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2005, 11:02:26 am »
Sounds like Seanner needs a Photon Jedi class or two....

And I agree, Crim.... starships not fighters.
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Offline GDA-S'Cipio

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Re: Real time SFC and Fed turn mode
« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2005, 11:03:33 am »

Seanner:

You are describing the classic oblique opening in SFB.  That does still work here, and the SFC guys call it a "range 8 peel".

I'm probably not the best one to describe it, since I'm more into plasma, but hopefully one of the Feds will give you a description or a link to an old topic.

Your second point -- getting turned for a second volley -- is a bit harder; at least for me.  I do have to work for that second shot a bit more in SFC than I did in SFB.   However I know it can be done without effort by more experienced Fed pilots, since it is done to me all the time........

Again, someone in blue needs to post some links to Fed tactics.  (Or, even better, just type them up again.)

Come on, someone point him in the right direction.

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Offline Seanner

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Re: Real time SFC and Fed turn mode
« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2005, 11:31:58 am »
Ok ok I concede!

I demand an explanation of how to play the game!

Perhaps I'll have to attend the lessons mentioned in the other thread.

Offline FPF-DieHard

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Re: Real time SFC and Fed turn mode
« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2005, 11:47:18 am »
Ok ok I concede!

I demand an explanation of how to play the game!

Perhaps I'll have to attend the lessons mentioned in the other thread.

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Offline Hexx

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Re: Real time SFC and Fed turn mode
« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2005, 01:48:41 pm »
It invloves cheating
Lots & lots of cheating

Sides there's so many more things to implement.
-ESG's that work correctly for instance.
(and a 7pt capacitor would be nice..)
-having plasma and drones lead a target
-single internals
-Lyran PF's with the original phaser 1's
-Smacking DH around (maybe Ill do this tonight...)

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Offline Age

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Re: Real time SFC and Fed turn mode
« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2005, 01:58:46 pm »
Thank my 10 page flame thread way back on CW 6 (i think it ws that one) for adopting speed 8. Those CW whores were stuck on the boringish slow speed of 7 till I rallied the OP crowd when we had a server drought there and tried to 'merge' the two communities for that EAW server. Anyone remember that?

Mog, even speed 7 is too slow. 8 or 9, not that'd be good.

What about a speed 10 plasma only server?
It would be more like dizzie server.Speed 9 in ok though not 10.

Offline FPF-Tobin Dax

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Re: Real time SFC and Fed turn mode
« Reply #15 on: August 26, 2005, 03:16:27 pm »
http://mu.ranter.net/

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Offline Dizzy

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Re: Real time SFC and Fed turn mode
« Reply #16 on: August 26, 2005, 04:27:36 pm »
All those articles are interesting. I'm especially impressed with the decoy frigate tactic. Brilliant.

Offline Dfly

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Re: Real time SFC and Fed turn mode
« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2005, 07:11:08 pm »
I, and many others, have played the SFB board game.  I have never in that game found that the fed can peel very much easier than it could in this game.  It has the advantage of shooting at the last second on a turn, taking 1.1 turns to be shooting again, then running for 2.1 turns in order to rinse and repeat.  Even with the fact that in the board game you can sideshift every SECOND straight movement, you still have the turn mode to satisfy(very difficult at higher speeds).  To shoot at end of turn, then turn and run say speed 31, you could not afford to charge the Photons. Same applies to this game.  Perhaps one of the biggest reasons found for this game to have a hard time at the shoot and peel is learning that proper angle of approach.  This part must be much more specific and you do not want the enemy closing in fast on you while he is already positioned behind you.  You must find proper angle to have him actually more in front of  you, while at the same time not getting to hard on angle to be eating plasmas in face.  Practice makes perfect, and I say this because I dont fly feds, but get to fly vs feds often.  I have to learn to make sure the fed does NOT get that angle on me, because I pay for it every time it happens.