Topic: Using BPV in a campaign is retarded

[Dizzy]

Heard someone is setting up a campaign and using bpv for ship loadouts. Like a warship would go to the front with slow drones in the late era. heh, retarded.

If the Lyrans fly against the Mirak, I'll fly Lyran and kick their ass, but only if the Mirak are allowed FULL era loadouts. Usual ship and ftr OoB as req.

BPV should NEVER be used in setting up matches for a campaign... OoB should dictate what ships are available, not what era drones they use.

EDIT: Do GSA'ers know what med and fast drones look like and how fast they go? ::snicker::

[Hexx]

Sooo if we don't allow the Mirak "full era loadouts" you'd be flying for them right?

I think I know which way the Lyrans are voting..

[762_XC]

Dizzy WTF are you talking about?

[Mutilator]

Here's the basic tenets:
2 teams
6 scenarios
Each team has a set Total BPV which is used to buy ships from their 'Fleet List'.  From this BPV they would have to purchase ships, fighters/PF's and drone speed upgrades.  'Extras' (mines/repair/marines) would be handled as "Commander's Options" at the individual scenario level.
Each team then secretly divides their 'Fleet' into 6 groups.
The 6 scenarios are then played in series.

I believe he is referring to this. Perhaps I was not the one to try and explain it....  There is a lot of other info posted up there as well so perhaps go to the PBR forum section for the full details. http://www.dynaverse.net/forum/index.php/topic,163357910.0.html

[Dizzy]

Is that it, Mutt? Ok, yeah thats fracking retarded. BPV shouldnt be used. Instead, ship classes with allowances for special type ships should be used. Full loadouts per the era should always be standard. Like I said, GSA peeps just dont know drones come in two other colors.

[FPF-DieHard]

This might be the dumbest post this year . . .

[Dizzy]

This might be the dumbest post this year . . .

hehe

[762_XC]

OMG Diz, you have got to be kidding. 

Do me a favor, write to Steve Cole and tell him that using BPV for patrol scenarios is retarded. Tell him you want to use "D2 loadouts" instead.

It's been a while since he flamed anybody over here. <snicker>

[Dizzy]

What's his email?

Okay, we have:

M-DF+ 75bpv.

Add fast drones with full reloads = 195bpv.

Any questions?

My point here is that if you use bpv to determine the ships in your fleet, the mirak will have to use lesser class type ships in order to buy faster drones. They need their drones to be competitive. I mean, c'mon, how many Mirak players are there in GSA that have ever been competitive?

If drone loadouts are secondary to class type bpv purchases, the Mirak get short changed. Their ships are inferrior to other races. They must have their drones to be competitive. That's all there is to it. I dont think that is in dispute. I think what is in dispute is how much they have to pay.

[FPF-Tobin Dax]

Talk to Jackle and Shadowlord, Dizzy. KHH did a great job flying a cycle as Mirak.

[Dfly]

using BPV to purchase all things usually means that Mirak get slow drones in order to have bigger ships.  Happens ALL the time in GSA as they will say, as example, total BPV for battle is 480.  This would include all mines, marines, shuttles, fighters, and speed drones additional to standard loadout.  What it ends up doing is forcing the Mirak pilot to be THAT MUCH BETTER just to be able to even compete.  Happens with Hydrans to a degree too as they cannot get the same class ship and good fighters for it.  They must take a slightly smaller ship with good fighters, or a proper size ship with garbage fighters.

This also happened to be a hot issue in non-Dyna campaigns as well.  All ships there get the standard loadout only, but the droners(klink-mirak, even feds to a degree) are forced to pay a premium price for their ships_sidenote_only drone ships and carrier ships were taxed_, to COMPENSATE for their loadouts of 3 loads of current era speed drones.  Yes, 3 loads, not 4.  Hydrans are also usually charged a premium price for their ships, to compensate for their fighters, but they at least are allowed full topofline fighters.  All other carrier ships also got the luxury tax, so to speak.  It was done this way because no one would want to enter as a Plasma race or Lyran if the droners and Hydrans got their ships at same costs per class as the Non-droners.

My coming to Dyna, and finding out that ALL people here fly with FULL loadouts of drones and fighters, at ALL times, was nearly a culture shock to my system.  Did it make me fly only droners? Nope, flew as Gorn twice, and now Mirak-ISC-Lyran.  Are there any non-droner pilots here? Hell yes, many.

Now, despite the fact that non-Dyna campaigns(the ones  I have participated in) do charge extra, and only have 3 reloads, the races that lasted till the end for those that I was in was either Klingons or Mirak.  Was it because the drones made all the biggest differences?  To a degree it did, but as much as that it was tactics on which ship combos and which battles to press that made most of the difference.  To be successful in those campaigns, you needed a great economical base in order to afford drone ships or carriers as their prices were high.

Back to Dyna, where a D5D or MDC or even light carriers can be afforded by nearly all pilots, and most multiple times, along with near no cost parts of all sorts, and where people dont cry foul because you fly a droner, now I know why I like it here so much.  Besides, where else can you go and blow up your ally, and know he, and you, can afford it 

Why did I post this? NO IDEA, but thought it might give insight to different points of view on BPV.

[762_XC]

Well for those who weren't on TS tonight I floated an idea to Jakle in which drone races paid for 1 reload's worth of speed upgrades and they get 3 (total) for free. This puts a Z-DF with fast drones at (I believe) 123 which seems about right to me. Note that 3 reloads is one less than the SFC engine allows but is the most allowed under SFB after the Y175 refits. For early and mid we may go with less reloads, and G-racks should probably have less as well.

Hydrans (and carriers in general) I'm not too worried about since the fighter upgrades they pay for are generally worth it, as long as you don't force them to fly Wasp-I's or Wasp-II's, particularly in 3v3's where many Hydran weaknesses are greatly reduced.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Actually drone BPVs might be more acurately portrayed as being uniform across all eras as the chance of hitting while increasing with drone speed decreases with increased Amd, plamsa D, other drone defenses and better power curbs on opponent ships as time goes by.  In SFB the enemy ships couldn't turn so easily with a required distance needing to be travelled before a 60 degree turn made, but in SFC they can easily wiggle to bring defenses in arc, therefore an SFB BPV system does not translate well.
Discounts for BPV in latter eras if slower speed drones were used might be feasible, as would be an increased BPV for a full drone load at the start of all missions at slow drone BPV prices or something similar.

[FPF-SCM_TraceyG_XC]

BPV, Basic Point Value was supposed to be a measure of the basic combat effectiveness of a ship in SFB. SFB has the benefit of decades of playtesting and the BPV (not be confused with EPV, Economic Point Value which is basically just a sum of all the systems) of a ship is not just ther sum of its weapons.

eg. lets say we add on 20 BPV for every photon torpedo tube that a ship has. A fed frigate might have around 70 BPV say. Now lets match it up against another ship that has 20 photons but only 6 warp power and nothing else. By this calculation then, it will have a BPV of well over 400, but the chances are the frigate will win. So, BPV is an adjusted measure of the combat effectiveness of a ship when compared with other ships, and supposedly we should be able to then say that a 100 BPV ship is 25% more combat effective than a 75 BPV ship. In SFB then, BPV was supposed to be used for balancing a match and in SFC, the same principle applies for GSA when used for matches that are supposed to be balanced.

Why balance a match in the first place? Matches are balanced just so the winner can say they fought better than their opponent.

So, how do we balance missions in a D2 camapaign. We dont. If a DN player drafts a FF player, its the FF player's bad luck. We do balance (or try to) the AI ships in a D2 mission, but since the AI is not as competent as a human player, the BPV is really only a guideline and again it depends on the particular strengths and weaknesses of each ship.

But, lets for arguments sake, say we adjust the BPV of a drone ship for faster drones... make a 125 BPV CA into a 200 PBV CA. What effect will this have? Well, the ship might cost more to buy (this is accounted for anyway when buying supplies). The AI matching might be tougher (but then dont forget, the AI BPV will now also be increased for faster drones). Will it have any effect on PvP? Absolutely none at all.

Adding faster drones to a ship does increase its combat effectiveness, so on the one hand, yes, a BPV increase is appropriate.

BPV is irrelevant to PvP in a D2 campaign, so on the other hand, a BPV increase seems pointless.

Changing the BPV of a ship really only changes the number of missions a player needs to take to save up enough prestige to buy it. Given enough time, BPV becomes irrelevant (except for AI mission matching) in a D2 campaign because we use something to determine the winner in a campaign. Now. if we used restrictions like eg. only Commodores can fly ships over 150 BPV, then it might be different. We dont though, but instead campaigns have used hull class (which isnt really very clear cut either) or a list of specific ships which can or cannot be flown (which has been used successfully and sometimes called an OOB, although it isnt an OOB in the true sense).

So, in summary, I dont really see why BPV is an issue at all in a D2 campaign. GSA perhaps, but certainly not for D2.  ???

[Dizzy]

So, in summary, I dont really see why BPV is an issue at all in a D2 campaign. GSA perhaps, but certainly not for D2.  ???

Well, obviously you wernt around when Karnak wanted to up the bpv for droners in the mid and late era and was nearly run out of the community for it.

Yes, it has a major impact on the D2. In the eraly era, slow drones and the droners bpv is about right. In the mid and late eras the bpv of the ship stays the same as the early, but now the droner completes mission times faster. Upping the bpv will pull bigger AI and pose more of a challenge and possibly extend the mission times for them.

In your missions, DF's will run 2 minute missions while plasma boats do 3-4. Lets say if I werte to have a mid and late era ship list serverside that ups all ships with drone racks 10 bpv per rack, the AI draws will be more difficult and those quick mission times may balance out. This has always been a thorn in the community and has drawn bad blood everytime it comes up. But that is NOT what we are talking about.

We are talking about a mini campaign where Mirak ships are chosen based on their bpv and then supplies are added on top. You do that with a drone race and you screw them...

[FPF-DieHard]

Um we're NOT TALKING ABOUT D2!!!!   Everyone Chill out, we're talking baout the PBR campaign.

[762_XC]

This is what we are talking about Tracey.

It's basically a 6 game mini campaign where each team picks 18 ships from a BPV pool in a certain era. Dizzy's point (which I kind of agree with) is that drone prices being what they are, we would only see slow drones in late era which is kind of silly.

[ShadowLord]

Try and tell the pilot of a gorn BCH -- that a C7 should get cheap fast drones...

[Corbomite]

Give missile races a drone allowance (more points for the kitties). That way you might actually see each ship with different speed drones, which would be more acurate and as good as it gets without being able to mix on each ship like SFB.

[ShadowLord]

I would think that with all the ladder matches that have been played where drones must be paid for -- and with the drone races NOT complaining about the cost ... things are as they should be ?(doesnt hurt to consider new options or even play test them but I think you will find any adjustments really hurt some of the non drone races)

KHH did fly Mirak for an entire cycle of ladder matches and the fleets winning % was higher then it has ever been.

On the other hand I should shut up and let you guys tell me I can fly a c7 with med speed drones for free..ya thats the ticket