Topic: Using BPV in a campaign is retarded

[Dizzy]

Heard someone is setting up a campaign and using bpv for ship loadouts. Like a warship would go to the front with slow drones in the late era. heh, retarded.

If the Lyrans fly against the Mirak, I'll fly Lyran and kick their ass, but only if the Mirak are allowed FULL era loadouts. Usual ship and ftr OoB as req.

BPV should NEVER be used in setting up matches for a campaign... OoB should dictate what ships are available, not what era drones they use.

EDIT: Do GSA'ers know what med and fast drones look like and how fast they go? ::snicker::

[Hexx]

Sooo if we don't allow the Mirak "full era loadouts" you'd be flying for them right?

I think I know which way the Lyrans are voting..

[762_XC]

Dizzy WTF are you talking about?

[Mutilator]

Here's the basic tenets:
2 teams
6 scenarios
Each team has a set Total BPV which is used to buy ships from their 'Fleet List'.  From this BPV they would have to purchase ships, fighters/PF's and drone speed upgrades.  'Extras' (mines/repair/marines) would be handled as "Commander's Options" at the individual scenario level.
Each team then secretly divides their 'Fleet' into 6 groups.
The 6 scenarios are then played in series.

I believe he is referring to this. Perhaps I was not the one to try and explain it....  There is a lot of other info posted up there as well so perhaps go to the PBR forum section for the full details. http://www.dynaverse.net/forum/index.php/topic,163357910.0.html

[Dizzy]

Is that it, Mutt? Ok, yeah thats fracking retarded. BPV shouldnt be used. Instead, ship classes with allowances for special type ships should be used. Full loadouts per the era should always be standard. Like I said, GSA peeps just dont know drones come in two other colors.

[FPF-DieHard]

This might be the dumbest post this year . . .

[Dizzy]

This might be the dumbest post this year . . .

hehe

[762_XC]

OMG Diz, you have got to be kidding. 

Do me a favor, write to Steve Cole and tell him that using BPV for patrol scenarios is retarded. Tell him you want to use "D2 loadouts" instead.

It's been a while since he flamed anybody over here. <snicker>

[Dizzy]

What's his email?

Okay, we have:

M-DF+ 75bpv.

Add fast drones with full reloads = 195bpv.

Any questions?

My point here is that if you use bpv to determine the ships in your fleet, the mirak will have to use lesser class type ships in order to buy faster drones. They need their drones to be competitive. I mean, c'mon, how many Mirak players are there in GSA that have ever been competitive?

If drone loadouts are secondary to class type bpv purchases, the Mirak get short changed. Their ships are inferrior to other races. They must have their drones to be competitive. That's all there is to it. I dont think that is in dispute. I think what is in dispute is how much they have to pay.

[FPF-Tobin Dax]

Talk to Jackle and Shadowlord, Dizzy. KHH did a great job flying a cycle as Mirak.

[Dfly]

using BPV to purchase all things usually means that Mirak get slow drones in order to have bigger ships.  Happens ALL the time in GSA as they will say, as example, total BPV for battle is 480.  This would include all mines, marines, shuttles, fighters, and speed drones additional to standard loadout.  What it ends up doing is forcing the Mirak pilot to be THAT MUCH BETTER just to be able to even compete.  Happens with Hydrans to a degree too as they cannot get the same class ship and good fighters for it.  They must take a slightly smaller ship with good fighters, or a proper size ship with garbage fighters.

This also happened to be a hot issue in non-Dyna campaigns as well.  All ships there get the standard loadout only, but the droners(klink-mirak, even feds to a degree) are forced to pay a premium price for their ships_sidenote_only drone ships and carrier ships were taxed_, to COMPENSATE for their loadouts of 3 loads of current era speed drones.  Yes, 3 loads, not 4.  Hydrans are also usually charged a premium price for their ships, to compensate for their fighters, but they at least are allowed full topofline fighters.  All other carrier ships also got the luxury tax, so to speak.  It was done this way because no one would want to enter as a Plasma race or Lyran if the droners and Hydrans got their ships at same costs per class as the Non-droners.

My coming to Dyna, and finding out that ALL people here fly with FULL loadouts of drones and fighters, at ALL times, was nearly a culture shock to my system.  Did it make me fly only droners? Nope, flew as Gorn twice, and now Mirak-ISC-Lyran.  Are there any non-droner pilots here? Hell yes, many.

Now, despite the fact that non-Dyna campaigns(the ones  I have participated in) do charge extra, and only have 3 reloads, the races that lasted till the end for those that I was in was either Klingons or Mirak.  Was it because the drones made all the biggest differences?  To a degree it did, but as much as that it was tactics on which ship combos and which battles to press that made most of the difference.  To be successful in those campaigns, you needed a great economical base in order to afford drone ships or carriers as their prices were high.

Back to Dyna, where a D5D or MDC or even light carriers can be afforded by nearly all pilots, and most multiple times, along with near no cost parts of all sorts, and where people dont cry foul because you fly a droner, now I know why I like it here so much.  Besides, where else can you go and blow up your ally, and know he, and you, can afford it 

Why did I post this? NO IDEA, but thought it might give insight to different points of view on BPV.

[762_XC]

Well for those who weren't on TS tonight I floated an idea to Jakle in which drone races paid for 1 reload's worth of speed upgrades and they get 3 (total) for free. This puts a Z-DF with fast drones at (I believe) 123 which seems about right to me. Note that 3 reloads is one less than the SFC engine allows but is the most allowed under SFB after the Y175 refits. For early and mid we may go with less reloads, and G-racks should probably have less as well.

Hydrans (and carriers in general) I'm not too worried about since the fighter upgrades they pay for are generally worth it, as long as you don't force them to fly Wasp-I's or Wasp-II's, particularly in 3v3's where many Hydran weaknesses are greatly reduced.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Actually drone BPVs might be more acurately portrayed as being uniform across all eras as the chance of hitting while increasing with drone speed decreases with increased Amd, plamsa D, other drone defenses and better power curbs on opponent ships as time goes by.  In SFB the enemy ships couldn't turn so easily with a required distance needing to be travelled before a 60 degree turn made, but in SFC they can easily wiggle to bring defenses in arc, therefore an SFB BPV system does not translate well.
Discounts for BPV in latter eras if slower speed drones were used might be feasible, as would be an increased BPV for a full drone load at the start of all missions at slow drone BPV prices or something similar.

[FPF-SCM_TraceyG_XC]

BPV, Basic Point Value was supposed to be a measure of the basic combat effectiveness of a ship in SFB. SFB has the benefit of decades of playtesting and the BPV (not be confused with EPV, Economic Point Value which is basically just a sum of all the systems) of a ship is not just ther sum of its weapons.

eg. lets say we add on 20 BPV for every photon torpedo tube that a ship has. A fed frigate might have around 70 BPV say. Now lets match it up against another ship that has 20 photons but only 6 warp power and nothing else. By this calculation then, it will have a BPV of well over 400, but the chances are the frigate will win. So, BPV is an adjusted measure of the combat effectiveness of a ship when compared with other ships, and supposedly we should be able to then say that a 100 BPV ship is 25% more combat effective than a 75 BPV ship. In SFB then, BPV was supposed to be used for balancing a match and in SFC, the same principle applies for GSA when used for matches that are supposed to be balanced.

Why balance a match in the first place? Matches are balanced just so the winner can say they fought better than their opponent.

So, how do we balance missions in a D2 camapaign. We dont. If a DN player drafts a FF player, its the FF player's bad luck. We do balance (or try to) the AI ships in a D2 mission, but since the AI is not as competent as a human player, the BPV is really only a guideline and again it depends on the particular strengths and weaknesses of each ship.

But, lets for arguments sake, say we adjust the BPV of a drone ship for faster drones... make a 125 BPV CA into a 200 PBV CA. What effect will this have? Well, the ship might cost more to buy (this is accounted for anyway when buying supplies). The AI matching might be tougher (but then dont forget, the AI BPV will now also be increased for faster drones). Will it have any effect on PvP? Absolutely none at all.

Adding faster drones to a ship does increase its combat effectiveness, so on the one hand, yes, a BPV increase is appropriate.

BPV is irrelevant to PvP in a D2 campaign, so on the other hand, a BPV increase seems pointless.

Changing the BPV of a ship really only changes the number of missions a player needs to take to save up enough prestige to buy it. Given enough time, BPV becomes irrelevant (except for AI mission matching) in a D2 campaign because we use something to determine the winner in a campaign. Now. if we used restrictions like eg. only Commodores can fly ships over 150 BPV, then it might be different. We dont though, but instead campaigns have used hull class (which isnt really very clear cut either) or a list of specific ships which can or cannot be flown (which has been used successfully and sometimes called an OOB, although it isnt an OOB in the true sense).

So, in summary, I dont really see why BPV is an issue at all in a D2 campaign. GSA perhaps, but certainly not for D2.  ???

[Dizzy]

So, in summary, I dont really see why BPV is an issue at all in a D2 campaign. GSA perhaps, but certainly not for D2.  ???

Well, obviously you wernt around when Karnak wanted to up the bpv for droners in the mid and late era and was nearly run out of the community for it.

Yes, it has a major impact on the D2. In the eraly era, slow drones and the droners bpv is about right. In the mid and late eras the bpv of the ship stays the same as the early, but now the droner completes mission times faster. Upping the bpv will pull bigger AI and pose more of a challenge and possibly extend the mission times for them.

In your missions, DF's will run 2 minute missions while plasma boats do 3-4. Lets say if I werte to have a mid and late era ship list serverside that ups all ships with drone racks 10 bpv per rack, the AI draws will be more difficult and those quick mission times may balance out. This has always been a thorn in the community and has drawn bad blood everytime it comes up. But that is NOT what we are talking about.

We are talking about a mini campaign where Mirak ships are chosen based on their bpv and then supplies are added on top. You do that with a drone race and you screw them...

[FPF-DieHard]

Um we're NOT TALKING ABOUT D2!!!!   Everyone Chill out, we're talking baout the PBR campaign.

[762_XC]

This is what we are talking about Tracey.

It's basically a 6 game mini campaign where each team picks 18 ships from a BPV pool in a certain era. Dizzy's point (which I kind of agree with) is that drone prices being what they are, we would only see slow drones in late era which is kind of silly.

[ShadowLord]

Try and tell the pilot of a gorn BCH -- that a C7 should get cheap fast drones...

[Corbomite]

Give missile races a drone allowance (more points for the kitties). That way you might actually see each ship with different speed drones, which would be more acurate and as good as it gets without being able to mix on each ship like SFB.

[ShadowLord]

I would think that with all the ladder matches that have been played where drones must be paid for -- and with the drone races NOT complaining about the cost ... things are as they should be ?(doesnt hurt to consider new options or even play test them but I think you will find any adjustments really hurt some of the non drone races)

KHH did fly Mirak for an entire cycle of ladder matches and the fleets winning % was higher then it has ever been.

On the other hand I should shut up and let you guys tell me I can fly a c7 with med speed drones for free..ya thats the ticket

[el-Karnak]

Well, obviously you wernt around when Karnak wanted to up the bpv for droners in the mid and late era and was nearly run out of the community for it.

It wasn't quite like that. What I wanted to do is take an inventory of a ship's drone loadout. If they past a certain threshold, I think it was approx. 75 drones, then an extra enemy AI would be spawned for the player when they do a PvE EEK mission.  I did many trials with F-NCD, K-D5D, and Z-MDC and definitely the extra AI for the droner was forcing the mission to last about a minute longer which would equalize the mission time with a line ship running the same missions.

Anyway, that idea was not very popular and once the disengagement rule was adopted, it became less necessary.  I then concentrated of using class types to determine if an extra enemy AI should be spawned when a player runs a PvE EEK missions. Basically, if you are flying a BCH, DN or BB then you are getting an extra enemy AI. The idea worked most effectively if encouraging players to starting have an smaller ship player to draft for the heavy iron BCH and up player.  Et voila, you got players doing exactly what they should be doing: having an escort  for the heavy iron ship.  BTW, an Admin. that really wanted to use extra AI for droner player would just have to classify the selected droner ship(s) or PFT ship(s) or whatever is deem uber-chessy as a BCH and they got it. That became a mucho better implementation using shiplist.txt.  Has never been done in any dyna with EEK missions to my knowledge though.

It's basically a 6 game mini campaign where each team picks 18 ships from a BPV pool in a certain era. Dizzy's point (which I kind of agree with) is that drone prices being what they are, we would only see slow drones in late era which is kind of silly.

That's what non-EEK missions do with AI. The drone race AI are using slow drones in Late Era. ???

EEK mission will never do that. You pull a PvE EEK mission in late era then you better wake up out of your stupor cuz the mission will actually be less boring than the norm cuz those enemy AI are packing fast drones. 

[Dizzy]

Try and tell the pilot of a gorn BCH -- that a C7 should get cheap fast drones...

I pwnd countless C7's playing Gorn on past servers... with med speed drones. Fast ones made the task a bit harder... but that's the D2. That's why GSA players get pwnd so hardcore when they 1st come to the D2... and capped too. HAHAHA! You guys need to step up to the plate and bat a little harder and stop whimpering about free loadouts.

[GDA-S'Cipio]

I pwnd countless C7's playing Gorn on past servers... with med speed drones. Fast ones made the task a bit harder...

<emphasis mine>

Wouldn't your experience suggest that a C7 with fast drone should thus have a highter BPV than one with medium speed drones?

-S'Cipio

[762_XC]

C7 vs G-BCH is a bad example. The Gorn willl usually get pwnt even with slow drones, because they have a bad BCH compared to the C7.

I think free upgrades is a bad idea. But is the C7 with fast drones worth 320?

[el-Karnak]

Upping the bpv will pull bigger AI and pose more of a challenge and possibly extend the mission times for them.

On D2 dynas, the AI is too stupid with droners so it don't matter if you up the BPV. All you get is a stupid DN to replace the stupid BCH.  The stupid DN AI will go down relatively just as quick against a player packing drones.

Only way to make the mission longer is to spawn an extra enemy AI.  1v1 become 1v2 match or 2v2 become 2v3 match.  That definitely increases the mission times even when flying against dumb enemy AI.  Either that or get the ROM AI to stay cloaked all the time.

3v3 mission becomes 3v4?  Now, that's a firework show.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Only way to make the mission longer is to spawn an extra enemy AI.  1v1 become 1v2 match or 2v2 become 2v3 match.  That definitely increases the mission times even when flying against dumb enemy AI.  Either that or get the ROM AI to stay cloaked all the time.

3v3 mission becomes 3v4?  Now, that's a firework show.

Don't make me break out the "Frog Gun" again Karnak 

Any change that would lead to longer ai mission times is not good for the game, especially with the lower player numbers of today as strategic fluidity of a campaign is impaired. 

I've always felt the key to the mission time discrepancy lie in making a fast flipping PvP ineffective option for races with longer mission times.  My thoughts being a early version of a PF tender with INTs available for the Gorn and Roms at server start.  Of course if you balance the other races against the Mirak mission times, you will have to balance the Mirak PvP ability vs those same races.  Most mirak ships don't have a prayer vs a plasma chucker who can do 31 and recharge chucking plasma over his shoulder at speeds the mirak ships cannot keep up with and rearm at as they were not designed for plasma fighting.

[el-Karnak]

Only way to make the mission longer is to spawn an extra enemy AI.  1v1 become 1v2 match or 2v2 become 2v3 match.  That definitely increases the mission times even when flying against dumb enemy AI.  Either that or get the ROM AI to stay cloaked all the time.

3v3 mission becomes 3v4?  Now, that's a firework show.

Don't make me break out the "Frog Gun" again Karnak 

Any change that would lead to longer ai mission times is not good for the game, especially with the lower player numbers of today as strategic fluidity of a campaign is impaired. 

I've always felt the key to the mission time discrepancy lie in making a fast flipping PvP ineffective option for races with longer mission times.  My thoughts being a early version of a PF tender with INTs available for the Gorn and Roms at server start.  Of course if you balance the other races against the Mirak mission times, you will have to balance the Mirak PvP ability vs those same races.  Most mirak ships don't have a prayer vs a plasma chucker who can do 31 and recharge chucking plasma over his shoulder at speeds the mirak ships cannot keep up with and rearm at as they were not designed for plasma fighting.

Oh NO!! Not the FROG GUN!!   

The problem with the early PFT for all races approach is that you are then forcing all races to fly like Mirak.  Not something every non-Mirak player wants to do. 

I can understand your reasons for not wanting extra AI spawn for players flying droners or PFTs or whatever ship, and the Mirak are definitely at the bottom PvP wise which is why I pretty much took the issue out of the mission source code, and put it as an optional configurable feature in the shiplist.txt file.  Personally, I would not use it unless the ship's BPV (including full loadouts) went into BCH range (ie. 200 plus territory).

I definitely think that anyone flying a BCH, DN, and/or BB deserves extra AI in the missions cuz otherwise they are too easy for them. Plus, heavy iron ships are meant to be escorted and rare on the dyna. So, on the dyna, when I always find DN AI popping with the regularity of FFs, I find the mission to be quite amusing and has an icky un-realistic tone. DN AI should be reserved for special fleet action and/or planet/base missions which is why I took DN AI out of EEK patrols. If you're flying a BCH, DN or BB in a PvE EEK Patrol mission, you'll get an extra enemy AI, but no DN AI will show up.

Anyway, I really want a working SQL Server kit so we can put the mission times and disengagement rule debates to rest by having the server kit give bonus DV bumps for PvP wins.

[Hexx]

I'd just like to ask the admins to move this thread to hte appropriate forum.
It has nothing to do with bitter resentment at never being asked (let alone begged) to play in
the PBR league, and everything to do with my ongoing quest to make sure this forum stays on topic.

NOW DO WHAT I SAY ADMINS!!!

HA! YOU HAVE NO CHOICE!

Ah even the admins bow to my wishes on these forums..

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

The problem with the early PFT for all races approach is that you are then forcing all races to fly like Mirak.  Not something every non-Mirak player wants to do. 

Actually no, if you do that you are giving them an option, nobody is forcing anyone to fly anything.  They might like them to fly on the line,  to use to make money getting them into a larger ship faster, other uses, or not at all.

As a mirak player I would like a similar option in the form of a viable PvP ship in each class vs the high speed runaway plasma chuckers, but don't suggest doing so without offering the sharing of the mirak advantage of great hex-flipping. 

[FPF-Tobin Dax]

Try and tell the pilot of a gorn BCH -- that a C7 should get cheap fast drones...

I pwnd countless C7's playing Gorn on past servers... with med speed drones. Fast ones made the task a bit harder... but that's the D2. That's why GSA players get pwnd so hardcore when they 1st come to the D2... and capped too. HAHAHA! You guys need to step up to the plate and bat a little harder and stop whimpering about free loadouts.

Aside from the adjustment to ships being captured for GSA players new to the dyna, I really think you should STFU Dizzy. I killed my 1st d-2 vet an hour into my first server and I've seen an awfull lot of your backside on servers while it runs accross that old red line. Generalizing that GSA players get owned hardcore when they come here is pure fantasy. 

[Dizzy]

If you've seen me cross the red line vs you then it's been in a ship two size classes smaller than yous. That or it was 3 to 1.

Have a nice day.

[FPF-Tobin Dax]

Full of crap. What a surprise. GW series and your FD7k?  Whatever that fast cruiser is. You couldn't bust my castling in a mirak light and new cruisers. Guess I'll have to take more screenshots. Keep your fantasies alive man. I'm sure 1 or 2 here enjoy your usual bluster.

[Corbomite]

C7 vs G-BCH is a bad example. The Gorn willl usually get pwnt even with slow drones, because they have a bad BCH compared to the C7.

 


Man, that's the funniest thing Iv'e read in months!

[Dizzy]

C7 vs G-BCH is a bad example. The Gorn willl usually get pwnt even with slow drones, because they have a bad BCH compared to the C7.

 


Man, that's the funniest thing Iv'e read in months!

Thats what I was saying...

Oh, and Tobin, I remember something like that... Yeah, I'll admit, I had a few embarrassing moments there in that series. That was one of them.

[KHH Jakle]

What was this thread about again.....

Hexx...I am not sure why you haven't bothered Mutilator to include you on their scheduling, especially since they are lined up to head some Lyrans for the next Mini Camp.

Besides, they'll need a pinch hitter when TT's connection starts crapping out the matches.. 

[el-Karnak]

The problem with the early PFT for all races approach is that you are then forcing all races to fly like Mirak.  Not something every non-Mirak player wants to do. 

Actually no, if you do that you are giving them an option, nobody is forcing anyone to fly anything.  They might like them to fly on the line,  to use to make money getting them into a larger ship faster, other uses, or not at all.

As a mirak player I would like a similar option in the form of a viable PvP ship in each class vs the high speed runaway plasma chuckers, but don't suggest doing so without offering the sharing of the mirak advantage of great hex-flipping. 

I am assuming that this regime is implemented to replace the disengagement rule. If it's used in conjuction with the disengagement rule then that's cool.

[FPF-DieHard]

. . . Mini Camp. . . .

Mini-camp and Hexx, kinda makes sense . . .

[Dfly]

I would have to agree with TobinDax on that one.  I flew with Kroma as a gorn my first server here, and have now flown 3 servers, and I will say that although I died twice in the first server, I killed 3, saw more run from me than I ran from, and to this date have never been Capped.   My stats only improved on the second and third server.  I will admit there are a few who come here and get a very quick awakening, but from what I have seen since I have been here, those are usually people who actually have not had years of experience in GSA.  Of course there are always a few, like HEXX  , who will never seem to improve no matter how many years they have been flying.

[Hexx]

It's tough to improve upon perfection 

LOL actually was talking about this with a friend the other day, I think -over all the years I've been playing this game
(first server was Rooks Tavern) that I've only accumulated 100K + prestige twice, maybe 3 times.
It's amusing that Chuut + Fluff have both outscored , or equalled, my entire lifetime prestige accumulation on one server.

I really need to play this game more.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

The problem with the early PFT for all races approach is that you are then forcing all races to fly like Mirak.  Not something every non-Mirak player wants to do. 

Actually no, if you do that you are giving them an option, nobody is forcing anyone to fly anything.  They might like them to fly on the line,  to use to make money getting them into a larger ship faster, other uses, or not at all.

As a mirak player I would like a similar option in the form of a viable PvP ship in each class vs the high speed runaway plasma chuckers, but don't suggest doing so without offering the sharing of the mirak advantage of great hex-flipping. 

I am assuming that this regime is implemented to replace the disengagement rule. If it's used in conjuction with the disengagement rule then that's cool.

I was meaning in addition to the DR, as long as the mirak are given boats that can compete with all races  in PvP, I have no problem having all races being able to compete with us in hex flipping.  To have one without the other would be retarded.

[FPF-DieHard]

Or the Mirak could learn some tactics.   

Z-NCC.   6 Phaser 1 that fiire backwards, 41 power, 4 drones racks and  C turn mode.   You're telling me you can't fight an NHK/G-MCC  in that?  he can't run you down and if he castles ignore him until he gets bored. I KNOW you can win that fight, I've seen what you can do this ship.

Yes, the Z-BCH is a turd, but that's why the X-Ships are supposed to come out in 2282.  You're CCXs are competitive in late and this is what the game was desgined around.   These are the ships you should be comparing, not some supped up Strike Carrier that was never updated because they didn't need to.

The Kzin have plenty of competive ships, they just fly them wrong or choose not fly them at all.

PS.   I agree your Fast cruisers suck but your carriers are great and you get the MIRVs on non-X in OP+

[Hexx]

Huzzah!
I was going to say the same thing

The problem isn't the ship, it's that all the Kzin pilots are stupid.
Get smarter pilots.
I think Pig was looking for another race to fly..

[FPF-DieHard]

Huzzah!
I was going to say the same thing

The problem isn't the ship, it's that all the Kzin pilots are stupid.
Get smarter pilots.
I think Pig was looking for another race to fly..

I can always count on Hexx to make me look diplomatic   

hey KHH, if I do a "4 Powers War 2268-Late" will you guys Fly Mirak?

[Hexx]

Huzzah!
I was going to say the same thing

The problem isn't the ship, it's that all the Kzin pilots are stupid.
Get smarter pilots.
I think Pig was looking for another race to fly..

I can always count on Hexx to make me look diplomatic   

hey KHH, if I do a "4 Powers War 2268-Late" will you guys Fly Mirak?

I think they have one of those "loyalty" complexes I've heard about.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Or the Mirak could learn some tactics.   

Z-NCC.   6 Phaser 1 that fiire backwards, 41 power, 4 drones racks and  C turn mode.   You're telling me you can't fight an NHK/G-MCC  in that?  he can't run you down and if he castles ignore him until he gets bored. I KNOW you can win that fight, I've seen what you can do this ship.

Yes, the Z-BCH is a turd, but that's why the X-Ships are supposed to come out in 2282.  You're CCXs are competitive in late and this is what the game was desgined around.   These are the ships you should be comparing, not some supped up Strike Carrier that was never updated because they didn't need to.

The Kzin have plenty of competive ships, they just fly them wrong or choose not fly them at all.

PS.   I agree your Fast cruisers suck but your carriers are great and you get the MIRVs on non-X in OP+

Mirak fast cruisers suck

The Z-BCH sucks vs plasma

Mirak DNs suck vs plasma

Not everyone is a fighter jock

X-Ships suck by definition

NCC is a good ship (great vs Klingons) although limited with retarded FA arcs (despite the much much older Z-CC having great arcs and this being an "upgrade")managing 4 phaser ones to a broadside, inferior to the NHK.  True the NHK can't chase it down, but shouldn't ned to.  He can make the mirak eat plasma on a regular basis if the NCC tries to chase him at anything but long range.  Its still a winable if very uphill fight.  Now it gets even worse vs Fast Cruisers and other ships that can arc the S torps over the shoulder.  Try vs a G-BF.  And what do you fly vs the BCHs and DNs?

I don't mind having certain racial weaknesses, but thought I'd point this out as something that would need attention if we try to bring the other races up a bit in the area of the mirak strength of hex flipping.


I'm sure you will enlighten me as to better tactics when you are recording Plasma boat kills left and right when you are flying Kzin on the next server DH (shameless recruiting )  I get more kills when flying Federation or Lyran than as Kzin, so maybe I'm flying the wrong race, perhaps your high sucess rate with mirak ships in that future server will make a Kzin out of you 

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

You're CCXs are competitive in late and this is what the game was desgined around. 

If the game is designed around CCXs the community has been spending 95 % of its time on the wrong eras and I'm playing the wrong game 

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Huzzah!
The problem isn't the ship, it's that all the Kzin pilots are stupid.
Get smarter pilots.

This coming from Hexx?

It is kinda like Rosie O'Donell telling you your fat and need to lose weight?

[FPF-Tobin Dax]

Gw1. I had more kills flying mirak vs. klinks than any other server. The MDC and NCC were great! (in the mid to high teens) The gap in years until the mirak bch came out vs the c-7 hurt. Moggy's BCH mad the c-7 / bch battle decent and with a bit more power and one less dizzy, might make it more competitive vs plasma.

[FPF-DieHard]

Mirak fast cruisers suck

Ray Charles can see that.  No debate their.  Everyone has something that sucks.

The Z-BCH sucks vs plasma

You comparing it the the KCR and CCZ?   What doesn't suck versus those ships?

Mirak DNs suck vs plasma

Again, what DN isn't inferior the the PRA?

Not everyone is a fighter jock

Then why fly Mirak?   It's your races strong area.  If you like drones, good fast cruisers and bad carriers fly Klingon.  

Mirak without drones and fighters is like beer without Alcohol.

X-Ships suck by definition

Wrong.   They fix gapping holes in balance that OP has by them not being there.   This game is based on SFB, it did not matter in SFB if the Gorn and Kzin BCHs were weak becaause by the time they came out the races were building X ships instaed.

I notice no mention of the greatest HDWs in the game while you are speaking of late era ships

NCC is a good ship (great vs Klingons) although limited with retarded FA arcs (despite the much much older Z-CC having great arcs and this being an "upgrade")managing 4 phaser ones to a broadside, inferior to the NHK.  True the NHK can't chase it down, but shouldn't ned to.  He can make the mirak eat plasma on a regular basis if the NCC tries to chase him at anything but long range.  Its still a winable if very uphill fight. 

WHY WOULD YOU CHASE DOWN AN NHK???    You give an example of a bad tactic not working and them blame it on the ship? Try that in and F-CB/NCC you'l die just as quick.

I've have 3 hour PvP's versus plasma, it takes a long time.  ANY fight when you opponent has more cruch than you requires patience and time.

Now it gets even worse vs Fast Cruisers and other ships that can arc the S torps over the shoulder.  Try vs a G-BF.  And what do you fly vs the BCHs and DNs?

You might sell me on a better Fast cruiser, we'll get back to that

I don't mind having certain racial weaknesses, but thought I'd point this out as something that would need attention if we try to bring the other races up a bit in the area of the mirak strength of hex flipping.

I've never advocated weakening the Kzin hex-flipping abilites, nor do I expect every race to flip as well as the DF.   Argue that with the other guys

We have to have  best of everything, and we have to have a worst.   Kzinti are the best at Hexx flipping and I have no issue with this.   IMHO, evey race can be decent and have been with recent mods.

I Like Racial flavor ad do not advocate watering it down.

I'm sure you will enlighten me as to better tactics when you are recording Plasma boat kills left and right when you are flying Kzin on the next server DH (shameless recruiting )  I get more kills when flying Federation or Lyran than as Kzin, so maybe I'm flying the wrong race, perhaps your high sucess rate with mirak ships in that future server will make a Kzin out of you 

You Know that we'll find a Gorn underneath that fur if we use enough Nair.

PS.   I'm kinda busting your balls, don't take me too seriously.

[FPF-DieHard]

Gw1. I had more kills flying mirak vs. klinks than any other server. The MDC and NCC were great! (in the mid to high teens) The gap in years until the mirak bch came out vs the c-7 hurt. Moggy's BCH mad the c-7 / bch battle decent and with a bit more power and one less dizzy, might make it more competitive vs plasma.

The "Moggy" BCH made killing C7s too easy.  Maybe it could fight Plasma, but it tilts the scales too much against traditional enemies.

[FPF-DieHard]

You're CCXs are competitive in late and this is what the game was desgined around. 

If the game is designed around CCXs the community has been spending 95 % of its time on the wrong eras and I'm playing the wrong game 

IN LATE ERA!!!!   Compare CX to CX, not BCH to BCH.

Don't even try to tell me the Early Era Z-CC and MIDish Z-NCC are competitive.

[FPF-Tobin Dax]

Gw1. I had more kills flying mirak vs. klinks than any other server. The MDC and NCC were great! (in the mid to high teens) The gap in years until the mirak bch came out vs the c-7 hurt. Moggy's BCH mad the c-7 / bch battle decent and with a bit more power and one less dizzy, might make it more competitive vs plasma.

The "Moggy" BCH made killing C7s too easy.  Maybe it could fight Plasma, but it tilts the scales too much against traditional enemies.

 

I only had a couple of kills in the bch as it came out so late. Love the light cruiser and  new cruiser. I guess I really want to be a kitty. Why is Moggys' bch considered over the top?

[Hexx]

  Kzinti are the best at Hexx flipping and I have no issue with this.   IMHO, evey race can be decent and have been with recent mods.

Cheapshot or typo?
You decide!

Anyway I'll assume DH will be forgoing his Hydran preferrence for his new Four Powers server to show everyone all
these great Kzin ships?


Anyone else think DH should put his money where his mouth is? (I'm sure he has enough experience doing that with his Ho's so..)

[el-Karnak]

The problem with the early PFT for all races approach is that you are then forcing all races to fly like Mirak.  Not something every non-Mirak player wants to do. 

Actually no, if you do that you are giving them an option, nobody is forcing anyone to fly anything.  They might like them to fly on the line,  to use to make money getting them into a larger ship faster, other uses, or not at all.

As a mirak player I would like a similar option in the form of a viable PvP ship in each class vs the high speed runaway plasma chuckers, but don't suggest doing so without offering the sharing of the mirak advantage of great hex-flipping. 

I am assuming that this regime is implemented to replace the disengagement rule. If it's used in conjuction with the disengagement rule then that's cool.

I was meaning in addition to the DR, as long as the mirak are given boats that can compete with all races  in PvP, I have no problem having all races being able to compete with us in hex flipping.  To have one without the other would be retarded.

Agreed.

Party-time!! The ISC and Kzinti have actually agreed on an hex flipping related issue.

The universe has turned upside down!!

 

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Again, what DN isn't inferior the the PRA?

F-DNH  , but seriously not just the PRA but just about any plasma DN

Then why fly Mirak?   It's your races strong area.  If you like drones, good fast cruisers and bad carriers fly Klingon.  

Actually I'm a natural Rom or Lyran pilot I think, but the companionship of the other Kzin and the roleplay potential makes Kzin more enjoyable for me than those races.  Plus I think weve always had enough Klingon pilots, with Kzin there is a shortage.

Wrong.   They fix gapping holes in balance that OP has by them not being there.   This game is based on SFB, it did not matter in SFB if the Gorn and Kzin BCHs were weak becaause by the time they came out the races were building X ships instaed.

Green eggs and ham would be easier to sell to me    X-ships just make me incredibly bored and make all the non x-ships obsolete excepting the smaller x-boats.

I notice no mention of the greatest HDWs in the game while you are speaking of late era ships

I was bitching why would I mention those 

NCC is a good ship (great vs Klingons) although limited with retarded FA arcs (despite the much much older Z-CC having great arcs and this being an "upgrade")managing 4 phaser ones to a broadside, inferior to the NHK.  True the NHK can't chase it down, but shouldn't ned to.  He can make the mirak eat plasma on a regular basis if the NCC tries to chase him at anything but long range.  Its still a winable if very uphill fight. 

WHY WOULD YOU CHASE DOWN AN NHK???    You give an example of a bad tactic not working and them blame it on the ship? Try that in and F-CB/NCC you'l die just as quick.

 

I wouldn't,  thats why I was pointing out the broadside because he won't chase you and you wont chase him

I've have 3 hour PvP's versus plasma, it takes a long time.  ANY fight when you opponent has more cruch than you requires patience and time.

Even a win in a 3 hour fight is actually a strategic loss in most cases.  I've had so many of these fights most of them ending when one pilot has to go to bed or log off for another reason, hardly worth the effort.

We have to have  best of everything, and we have to have a worst.   Kzinti are the best at Hexx flipping and I have no issue with this.   IMHO, evey race can be decent and have been with recent mods.

resent mods haven't been too bad, except they seem to have a lot more Federation opions than for other races.  I think this is a product of the Federation centric nature of SFB upon which they are based.  By this I refer to the fact that in SFB the Federation is bordered by most of the other races so it has ships designed to fight almost everyone with a good variety of ship types, and even get to borrow some allied tech based on this setup.  Additionally, the Federation is the largest economic power is SFB & Fed & Empire so they seem to get more production of new models rather than having economic limitations that limit the frequency of new offerings.  Take the fighter list as an example.  Looking at this you would think that the federation is the biggest fighter race 

You Know that we'll find a Gorn underneath that fur if we use enough Nair.

You know I started as a Gorn, just couldn't stand those long plasma duels on a regular basis as I'm more interested in overall strategy than in individual PvP matches.  Still fun to fly plasma on occassion, but not as the norm and certainly not on a 4 week + server.

[FPF-DieHard]

TOO MANY QUOTES!!!

Just have to say I'm very sorry that you actually have to take the time to fight a live player.   I'm sorry that you cannot press the Z key and simply see them blow up.   I'm sorry that you actually have to engage the enemy in a war game   

[Dizzy]

Take the fighter list as an example.  Looking at this you would think that the federation is the biggest fighter race 

Yup, and they dont need their PF's. PF's with Photons are OTT. Make them PhoF and i'll be happy. Or give them Dizzies like the other races that cant shoot past 10.

Oh, and DH did an incredible job with his X ships. Fantastic. I think they add a lot. BUT they come out too soon, and I side with chuut on this, they make a lot of ships in 82 and 83 worthless to fly, and that sucks, cuz I really rather enjoy those ships in those years. Its like the BCH and war destroyer days never happen like the old day. I can deal if they come out in 84 and 85. That would rock.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

TOO MANY QUOTES!!!

Just have to say I'm very sorry that you actually have to take the time to fight a live player.   I'm sorry that you cannot press the Z key and simply see them blow up.   I'm sorry that you actually have to engage the enemy in a war game   

Don't get me wrong, one hours fights are cool, but after 2 hours it becomes boring for me, especially if it ends in a "gotta head to bed so I'm leaving the map".  In this aspect I respect Pardek greatly as if it becomes apparent it will be a long one he tells me if he doesn't have alot of time and we always call those a draw.  Occassionally a longer fight is entertaining, but if you got two boats with plasma doing the "ballet" it gets monotonous.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Yup, and they dont need their PF's. PF's with Photons are OTT. Make them PhoF and i'll be happy. Or give them Dizzies like the other races that cant shoot past 10.

Nah, just make them use the non violent combat option like the Feds are supposed to 

[FPF-DieHard]

Yup, and they dont need their PF's. PF's with Photons are OTT. Make them PhoF and i'll be happy. Or give them Dizzies like the other races that cant shoot past 10.

The Range 30 Proxies are just wrong on a PF, the PF with only 1 Photon keeps this resonable.   

The PFB (the one with 2 Photons and 1 Drone) should NOT be considered a Vanilla PF or should be removed.  The Normal PF with 1 Photon and 2 Drones fits that role better. 

Disrupters on PFs fire at 15 on PFs.

[FPF-DieHard]

Oh, and DH did an incredible job with his X ships. Fantastic. I think they add a lot. BUT they come out too soon, and I side with chuut on this, they make a lot of ships in 82 and 83 worthless to fly, and that sucks, cuz I really rather enjoy those ships in those years. Its like the BCH and war destroyer days never happen like the old day. I can deal if they come out in 84 and 85. That would rock.

What ships do they make worhtless besides carriers, tenders, droners, and other cheese the imbalance the game in the first place?

The split "points" system on AOT2 allowed for bother BCHs and X-cruiser to server a purpose on the board at the same time.   

[Hexx]

Aren't PF photons supposed to have a max range ?

What's the range of Photf's?

[FPF-DieHard]

Aren't PF photons supposed to have a max range ?

What's the range of Photf's?

Yes, 12 I think (books are still in storage)

PhotF is range 4.

[Corbomite]

Aren't PF photons supposed to have a max range ?

What's the range of Photf's?

PhotF is range 4.

And cannot be reloded by the PF, like all fighter weapons.

[Dizzy]

Well, PF's with photons proxying at range 30 while charging at spd 31 is OTT. I'd like alternatives, or we can just go with the OTT Fed ftrlist and axe the F-PF's altogether.

[FPF-DieHard]

Well, PF's with photons proxying at range 30 while charging at spd 31 is OTT. I'd like alternatives, or we can just go with the OTT Fed ftrlist and axe the F-PF's altogether.

What fighter in the SFBish Fed list is OTT and why?

[Hexx]

Well, PF's with photons proxying at range 30 while charging at spd 31 is OTT. I'd like alternatives, or we can just go with the OTT Fed ftrlist and axe the F-PF's altogether.

What fighter in the SFBish Fed list is OTT and why?

Wouldn't a better question be
Which aren't?
(and why?)

[FPF-DieHard]

Well, PF's with photons proxying at range 30 while charging at spd 31 is OTT. I'd like alternatives, or we can just go with the OTT Fed ftrlist and axe the F-PF's altogether.

What fighter in the SFBish Fed list is OTT and why?

Wouldn't a better question be
Which aren't?
(and why?)

OTT would imply SIGNIFICANTLY better than what the opponents have.  Example:   I-CCZ versus G-BCH.

So the Extra 2 Phasers 3 on the F-14 make it OTT compared the the ZYC and TADS.  Yeah right . . .

And don't say a word about the SPEED 20 A10.

[Hexx]

A phaserG is much more than the sum of three Phaser3's Grasshopper
The A10's capability lay not in it's speed, for it is like the waves on the ocean, slow to move
but capable of instantly firing it's photon torpedoes.

[FPF-DieHard]

A phaserG is much more than the sum of three Phaser3's Grasshopper
The A10's capability lay not in it's speed, for it is like the waves on the ocean, slow to move
but capable of instantly firing it's photon torpedoes.

IT"S THE SAME FIGHTER AS THE VULTURE II BUT SLOWER.

A Speed 20 fighter with a range 4 weapon is OTT?  Damn Hexx, you really must be as good of a pilot as everyone says 

[Hexx]

A phaserG is much more than the sum of three Phaser3's Grasshopper
The A10's capability lay not in it's speed, for it is like the waves on the ocean, slow to move
but capable of instantly firing it's photon torpedoes.

IT"S THE SAME FIGHTER AS THE VULTURE II BUT SLOWER.

A Speed 20 fighter with a range 4 weapon is OTT?  Damn Hexx, you really must be as good of a pilot as everyone says 

Your argument is speciou.. speca..spe... stupid
The Vulture II is obviously OTT as well.
So now we've decided the F14 and A10's are OTT
And I'm not sure how I like the F18b's stand up to a ZYb either...

[FPF-DieHard]

And I'm not sure how I like the F18b's stand up to a ZYb either...

They are the EXACT same fight with the F18 having fewer hitpoint.

[Dizzy]

Hrmmm. It's getting warm in here... 

[Hexx]

Actually now that I think about it, DH is right
The Fed SFBish fighters are amongst the most perfectly balanced weapon system
in this game

Kudos! to whomever designed them, truly a work of inspiration.