Topic: Great server! Great Game! Where're all the players?  (Read 6831 times)

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Offline Hexx

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Re: Great server! Great Game! Where're all the players?
« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2005, 02:14:08 pm »
One could all but guarantee you'll never see a SFB/SFC game in any kinda of p2p setting.
There are too many licenses involved with far too small a perceived player base.

Start charging a monthly fee however, and people will assume its superior. The its more expensive, therefore its better phenomenon.


......

Hmm
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Someone who knows about something called "python" and the letters S,Q ,and L
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I am gonna get soo rich.
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el-Karnak

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Re: Great server! Great Game! Where're all the players?
« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2005, 02:17:57 pm »
Gaming is now in the new age of pay-for-play servers. The idea is that you pay a monthly subscription to finance developers to improve the game product on a perpetual basis.  SWG and EVE are a couple of examples of this practice.

SFC family games are the stand-alone pay once, patch a couple times and then that's it for developer support of the game.  Anything else is subject to the vagaries of volunteer help. Plus, whatever open source code you can get a hold of. A pretty chaotic process at best.

Basically, it comes done to the fundamental rules of business:  you get what you pay for.

You want active F/T developers, backed by years of commercial game development experience, to work on your game to make it be all it can be?  Then you need to looking for perpetual games and start paying a monthly fee.  If you don't want to pay then you can't complain.

SWG just sold 1 million copies and has a few hundred thousand monthly subscribers.  If SFC ever did that then Taldren would still be developing this game and GAW would have been done years ago and the SQL server kit would have been on it's tenth robust version release by now. But, to substantially rebuild the SFC playerbase to where it was in 2003 under the current volunteer help conditions is not very realistic.  Without the current volunteer help, the game's playerbase would probably cease to exist, so it's more in survivalist mode. Nowadays, most online gaming players will and do prefer to go for pay-for-play games cuz the product is more robust and has more content and is basically a better game. It better be if you are paying a monthly fee. :lol:

We'll see if Star Trek Online can do the same as SWG. Although, it won't have SFC stuff cuz it's set  20 years in the future relative to the movie Nemesis.

I don't buy that at all. It's a cash grab, plain and simple.  Add it up. Its obscene. Waaay more than you need to finish developing a complicated game. Eve is written in python and and uses a clustered database backend, couldn't be simpler.  Want to truly support Eve development? Donate to Python and MySQL.  :P

Depending of which state they work in the US, you are looking at probably low-ball min. 90K annual salary and benefits for a prime-time commercial game developer that would even start to look at the bugs in the SFC game assuming it was setup like EVE as pay-for-play.  In CA, it's a lot more. In TX, it's better. NY is obscene, SouthEastern states are not too bad.

That's just one developer. Never mind the support staff, business rental fees, legal dept., PR dept. and all the sys. admins. you need to support perpetual servers.  Sure all of the work can then be off-shored but at the end of the day you are looking at substantial outlays.

What would would be the projected unit sales for an EVE-like SFC game?  1 million like SWG that has the power of  6 blockbuster Star Wars movies (ie. min. $300 million Y2005 US in domestic gross receipts) to back it up?  Best Star Trek movie can hardly get by $100 million Y2005 US in domestic gross receipts. 

SFC would definitely have to sell Paramount on being able to get min. 750K unit sales numbers to make an SFC EVE-like game possible. But, SFC cannot do this cuz its learning curve is way too high, so what you get is a dumbed downed Star Trek Online.

In conclusion, SFC will always remain a small hard-core fanbase game with minimal commerical developer support. So, it's gonna always be a buggy game.  A game that was first designed by a Professional Engineer for very dedicated gamers to play on.  That's not a big population pool to draw on.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2005, 02:30:45 pm by el-Karnak »

Offline Mog

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Re: Great server! Great Game! Where're all the players?
« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2005, 05:35:43 pm »
No, I haven't tried the test server. I think I've beta-tested this game enough already.

Fair enough, but please try not to be a "negative nellie". We are making progress, if you are not interested in seeing it, then just leave us be.

That kind of posting will certainly not help us get the necessary test numbers. A self fulfilling prophecy of sorts...

Bonk, you won't "get the necessary test numbers" unless you take the plunge and put it up as a "serious" server. I think past history has amply shown that. The downside to that is you risk errors showing up and irritating the players. What numbers are you looking for? Are there enough active players (who would be on at the same time) left to reach that threshold?

I suppose another way of getting the players would be to stipulate that to have access to Hot and Spicy et al, one would have to actively participate in the tests.

"Negative Nellie" signing off.
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Offline Bonk

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Re: Great server! Great Game! Where're all the players?
« Reply #23 on: August 22, 2005, 07:01:38 pm »
Thanks for the constructive criticism Mog. That's helpful.  :thumbsup: (I hope yer not mad about the "Negative Nellie" thing...)

I've got the map fixed up quite a bit from where it was, and have the new terrian types and Tracey's latest missions in. Just need a little feedback on the map and we're pretty much ready to call it "serious". (I can put off the enhanced webmap development for a while... http://www.dynaverse.net/webmap_op_sql/ )

The minimum crowd needed for load testing is about 25 players. If that is successful, to then test higher laods of 64 or more, we need to recruit more D2 players, or get some to came back.

Quote
I suppose another way of getting the players would be to stipulate that to have access to Hot and Spicy et al, one would have to actively participate in the tests.


I like the Machiavellian quality of that suggestion...  :flame:   ;D Though I don't think I could get away with it...

Offline GDA-Agave

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Re: Great server! Great Game! Where're all the players?
« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2005, 10:16:47 pm »

"Negative Nellie" signing off.

Send that man some Oreo cookies to go with his tea.   Some sugar might just turn that frown upside down.   (now be honest, how many of ya'll did that phrase just creep out?)

 ;D  ;D  ;D
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Offline Age

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Re: Great server! Great Game! Where're all the players?
« Reply #25 on: August 22, 2005, 10:19:14 pm »
Gaming is now in the new age of pay-for-play servers. The idea is that you pay a monthly subscription to finance developers to improve the game product on a perpetual basis.  SWG and EVE are a couple of examples of this practice.

SFC family games are the stand-alone pay once, patch a couple times and then that's it for developer support of the game.  Anything else is subject to the vagaries of volunteer help. Plus, whatever open source code you can get a hold of. A pretty chaotic process at best.

Basically, it comes done to the fundamental rules of business:  you get what you pay for.

You want active F/T developers, backed by years of commercial game development experience, to work on your game to make it be all it can be?  Then you need to looking for perpetual games and start paying a monthly fee.  If you don't want to pay then you can't complain.

SWG just sold 1 million copies and has a few hundred thousand monthly subscribers.  If SFC ever did that then Taldren would still be developing this game and GAW would have been done years ago and the SQL server kit would have been on it's tenth robust version release by now. But, to substantially rebuild the SFC playerbase to where it was in 2003 under the current volunteer help conditions is not very realistic.  Without the current volunteer help, the game's playerbase would probably cease to exist, so it's more in survivalist mode. Nowadays, most online gaming players will and do prefer to go for pay-for-play games cuz the product is more robust and has more content and is basically a better game. It better be if you are paying a monthly fee. :lol:

We'll see if Star Trek Online can do the same as SWG. Although, it won't have SFC stuff cuz it's set  20 years in the future relative to the movie Nemesis.

I don't buy that at all. It's a cash grab, plain and simple.  Add it up. Its obscene. Waaay more than you need to finish developing a complicated game. Eve is written in python and and uses a clustered database backend, couldn't be simpler.  Want to truly support Eve development? Donate to Python and MySQL.  :P

Depending of which state they work in the US, you are looking at probably low-ball min. 90K annual salary and benefits for a prime-time commercial game developer that would even start to look at the bugs in the SFC game assuming it was setup like EVE as pay-for-play.  In CA, it's a lot more. In TX, it's better. NY is obscene, SouthEastern states are not too bad.

That's just one developer. Never mind the support staff, business rental fees, legal dept., PR dept. and all the sys. admins. you need to support perpetual servers.  Sure all of the work can then be off-shored but at the end of the day you are looking at substantial outlays.

What would would be the projected unit sales for an EVE-like SFC game?  1 million like SWG that has the power of  6 blockbuster Star Wars movies (ie. min. $300 million Y2005 US in domestic gross receipts) to back it up?  Best Star Trek movie can hardly get by $100 million Y2005 US in domestic gross receipts. 

SFC would definitely have to sell Paramount on being able to get min. 750K unit sales numbers to make an SFC EVE-like game possible. But, SFC cannot do this cuz its learning curve is way too high, so what you get is a dumbed downed Star Trek Online.

In conclusion, SFC will always remain a small hard-core fanbase game with minimal commerical developer support. So, it's gonna always be a buggy game.  A game that was first designed by a Professional Engineer for very dedicated gamers to play on.  That's not a big population pool to draw on.
I know that all these MMOs hype right now but if everyone stopped paying to play them then the puplisheres and developer lose out in their investments.That is if you agree with pay 2 play which some don't and they can't be modded only server side.I imagine in Eve and SWG there is grind like all MMOs and leveling to reach a certian level.There is in GuildWars only the highest level is 20 but there is grind way more than any Dyna server although there wasn't suppose to be as much as they are throwing at GW players but is a free online game.Well  here is to the future of the Dynas may they live long prosper as I enjoy them better than any SFC played on GSA.

Offline Hexx

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Re: Great server! Great Game! Where're all the players?
« Reply #26 on: August 22, 2005, 10:22:44 pm »

"Negative Nellie" signing off.

Send that man some Oreo cookies to go with his tea.   Some sugar might just turn that frown upside down.   (now be honest, how many of ya'll did that phrase just creep out?)

 ;D  ;D  ;D

Actually it didn't creep me out nearly as much as the use of "ya'll"

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Offline Laflin

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Re: Great server! Great Game! Where're all the players?
« Reply #27 on: August 22, 2005, 11:00:34 pm »
I remember either Erik or Jinxx saying, when asked how mnay players could play on d2, that we'd never notice a player limit. You mean, they lied? I'm flabbergasted.

Yes, I'm being sarcastic (not to you, but because of the fact that I simply got fed up of waiting on the "Holy Grail" of SQL and all that it could fix and do).

No, I haven't tried the test server. I think I've beta-tested this game enough already.

Man, what a grouch - you sure this isn't Gow using another name? :P  BTW, who are Erik and Jinxx?  Who is this Taldren guy I keep hearing about? :)  Where the heck are the IPlay East and West servers? WooHoo!

Offline FPF-Tobin Dax

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Re: Great server! Great Game! Where're all the players?
« Reply #28 on: August 23, 2005, 08:25:58 am »
...history lesson...
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el-Karnak

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Re: Great server! Great Game! Where're all the players?
« Reply #29 on: August 23, 2005, 12:27:51 pm »
Quote from: Age
I know that all these MMOs hype right now but if everyone stopped paying to play them then the puplisheres and developer lose out in their investments.That is if you agree with pay 2 play which some don't and they can't be modded only server side.I imagine in Eve and SWG there is grind like all MMOs and leveling to reach a certian level.There is in GuildWars only the highest level is 20 but there is grind way more than any Dyna server although there wasn't suppose to be as much as they are throwing at GW players but is a free online game.Well  here is to the future of the Dynas may they live long prosper as I enjoy them better than any SFC played on GSA.

Hey, I'm just being a results-oriented frog.  SWG has 1 million units sold and 250K subscribers according to the  lastest published accounts. This is not a new game. It's more than 2 years old.  If Star Trek Online can even come close to such stats, Paramount will be seriously  "excited". But, STO won't do this with a game with SFC's high learning curve.  Just like Microsoft had to keep their learning curve low for its 1 million plus units sold winner in the popular Age of Conquest series.

Anyone saying that pay for play are a sham need to wake up.  Enjoy SFC and it's low-key hard-core fanbase for what it is. But, you'll never turn it into a big-time game like some MMORG.

I personally like both and accept the differences in terms of developer support according to their respective abilities to produce.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2005, 12:38:51 pm by el-Karnak »

Offline Age

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Re: Great server! Great Game! Where're all the players?
« Reply #30 on: August 23, 2005, 11:23:40 pm »
Quote from: Age
I know that all these MMOs hype right now but if everyone stopped paying to play them then the puplisheres and developer lose out in their investments.That is if you agree with pay 2 play which some don't and they can't be modded only server side.I imagine in Eve and SWG there is grind like all MMOs and leveling to reach a certian level.There is in GuildWars only the highest level is 20 but there is grind way more than any Dyna server although there wasn't suppose to be as much as they are throwing at GW players but is a free online game.Well  here is to the future of the Dynas may they live long prosper as I enjoy them better than any SFC played on GSA.

Hey, I'm just being a results-oriented frog.  SWG has 1 million units sold and 250K subscribers according to the  lastest published accounts. This is not a new game. It's more than 2 years old.  If Star Trek Online can even come close to such stats, Paramount will be seriously  "excited". But, STO won't do this with a game with SFC's high learning curve.  Just like Microsoft had to keep their learning curve low for its 1 million plus units sold winner in the popular Age of Conquest series.

Anyone saying that pay for play are a sham need to wake up.  Enjoy SFC and it's low-key hard-core fanbase for what it is. But, you'll never turn it into a big-time game like some MMORG.

I personally like both and accept the differences in terms of developer support according to their respective abilities to produce.
Those are  greats  points Karnak about STO with the learning curve and yes even those who played casual 2 years are still learning this game considering when you can fly more than one race.It to bad they nerfed that engine in SWG.

Offline Riskyllama

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Re: Great server! Great Game! Where're all the players?
« Reply #31 on: August 25, 2005, 10:21:02 pm »
Have any of you guys also considered what type of player base will be drawn to an easier game? One look at most of these online multiplayer games coming out not and you'll see they atract a far wilder userbase that you have now in SFC. I've only Dynaed AOTK2 but it looks to me like most of the playerbase is dedicated and more mature.  When STO comes out, how many of you believe that it will be full of young 12 year olds ( I know wild generalizations) whose only goal will to be to figure out ways to phaser the next guy out of existance. (Originally it said ways to go ramming speed into a Starbase but then I decided you might not be able to do that.)

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Offline FPF-Tobin Dax

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Re: Great server! Great Game! Where're all the players?
« Reply #32 on: August 25, 2005, 10:41:29 pm »
I've been reading their development posts and space basttles will likely be rare.  :thumbsdown:
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Offline CaptJosh

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Re: Great server! Great Game! Where're all the players?
« Reply #33 on: September 03, 2005, 11:09:37 pm »
Probably going to be geared toward landing parties and suchlike.
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