Topic: Have to commend Dib  (Read 8348 times)

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Offline Braxton_RIP

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Have to commend Dib
« on: July 31, 2005, 01:13:21 am »
I blew you up a couple times, and ran you off some as well, but you kept coming back.

Takes a person with some courage to countinually face a DNL and not run.

So sir, I saulte you.
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Offline SkyFlyer

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Re: Have to commend Dib
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2005, 01:16:10 am »
Especially in one mission with such a great heavy cruiser escort such as myself.

:P
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Offline [KBF]MuadDib

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Re: Have to commend Dib
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2005, 03:39:42 pm »
Especially in one mission with such a great heavy cruiser escort such as myself.

:P


thx...with no vc's really makes it easy to treat this like gsa...dont know why you guys feel so attached to your ships with so many more to buy in the yards...and come on versus the 10/20 time limit for disengagement...im so going for the 5/10 in most cases...

but no more alliance who want to run around and play tag get my ships anymore...so if you see me go boom about 10 minutes into a match when i could have ran 3-5 missions...you will know why...and not many get me before i self destruct...have to be quick or gang me...to actually kill me...for what its worth...

and i so loved being the mouse that i am...dodging your drafts to gang me out of hexes...got to be quicker...
Life cannot find reasons to sustain it, cannot be a source of decent mutual regard, unless each of us resolves to breathe such qualities into it.

Offline Mr.Bad151

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Re: Have to commend Dib
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2005, 10:34:06 pm »
err.. what's the point of self destructing?  I noticed you did that during the battle we had.  You obviously put up a fight during our battle, and I thought you deserved to disengage.. if you lived that long..   I was rather surprised you SD.  I fought another pilot today and the battle lasted about the same length of time.. and he managed to disengage.  I don't see any rule on a time limit for disengaging.  It does say fight (which you did) or flight.  I don't interpret that as fight to the death.. or leave immediately.
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Offline Dfly

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Re: Have to commend Dib
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2005, 10:55:29 pm »
I think his point is that he is using Vanilla ships, allowing him to return twice as fast to same hex, especially if he dies.  If his time in a mission vs PvP runs longer than Xamount of minutes, he SDs because he can run say 3 or more missions vs ai within that timeframe.  And with the SD in a Vanilla ship he can return to such said hex after a 15 min timeout.

Offline KBFLordKrueg

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Re: Have to commend Dib
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2005, 11:15:41 pm »
err.. what's the point of self destructing?  I noticed you did that during the battle we had.  You obviously put up a fight during our battle, and I thought you deserved to disengage.. if you lived that long..   I was rather surprised you SD.  I fought another pilot today and the battle lasted about the same length of time.. and he managed to disengage.  I don't see any rule on a time limit for disengaging.  It does say fight (which you did) or flight.  I don't interpret that as fight to the death.. or leave immediately.

From The Rules post, Mr Bad:

3)    DISENGAGEMENT RULE:

Def. - Ship of the Line - Any ship in the shiplist with a "v" at the front of it's name.  For example.  F-vCA.  If it doesn't have a "v" it is NOT a Line Ship.

FOR SHIPS OF THE LINE

- If you disengage from a battle with a live enemy player, you cannot take missions in that hex for 10 game turns.

- If your ship is destroyed by a live enemy player, you cannot take missions in that hex for 5 game turns.

FOR ALL OTHER SHIPS

- If you disengage from a battle with a live enemy player, you cannot take missions in that hex for 20 game turns.

- If your ship is destroyed by a live enemy player, you cannot take missions in that hex for 10 game turns.

IN GENERAL

There are no exemptions for the above two rules.  If you're stuck with a 1v3 or are forced to fly your FF against a BCH ... then the other side simply played their moves better.


By SDing he's allowed back in the hex in half the time.  ;D
And ships are cheap... ;)

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Offline [KBF]MuadDib

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Re: Have to commend Dib
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2005, 05:21:41 am »
err.. what's the point of self destructing?  I noticed you did that during the battle we had.  You obviously put up a fight during our battle, and I thought you deserved to disengage.. if you lived that long..   I was rather surprised you SD.  I fought another pilot today and the battle lasted about the same length of time.. and he managed to disengage.  I don't see any rule on a time limit for disengaging.  It does say fight (which you did) or flight.  I don't interpret that as fight to the death.. or leave immediately.

ya darth and krueg got it...less time away from a certain hex if i die rather than disengage...and self destructing is just something ive always really done...i would rather sd then let anyone actually make the final blow...and if youre close enough and hurt enough...i might take you too...its happened...
Life cannot find reasons to sustain it, cannot be a source of decent mutual regard, unless each of us resolves to breathe such qualities into it.

Offline Mr.Bad151

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Re: Have to commend Dib
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2005, 09:50:46 am »
Sound like ships are WAY too cheap and the disengagement rule is too harsh, if someone is willing to SD to get around the disengagement rule.  Most battle SHOULD end in the disengagement of one side...  Currently blowing someone up is actually HELPING them.. by way of letting them return to that hex SOONER!? 

What kinda of screwy system are we using?!  I'm new to D2 but this seem so backarsewards it isn't funny!  I've seen peoples PP stockpiles and realized that I'd have to blow them up 50 times to make a dent in their PP.  Sure the current settings encourage PvP, but at the same time make it meaningless.  You can run missions twice as fast to flip hexes and earn about the same amount of PP (even with the PvP bonus).  When someone is willing to SD (killing his crew and distroying a hunk of his races economy) maybe its time to rethink the rules.

(Dib, I'm not insulting you or what you did, just dumbfounded by the rules...)
"As the radius of my knowledge increases, so does the circumference of my ignorance"

Offline Hexx

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Re: Have to commend Dib
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2005, 09:55:09 am »
Since technically when you blow someone's ship up they should have to
start a new account (being what dead and all) it's not really something
I'm worried about.
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Offline FPF-DieHard

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Re: Have to commend Dib
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2005, 11:05:01 am »
Sound like ships are WAY too cheap and the disengagement rule is too harsh, if someone is willing to SD to get around the disengagement rule.  Most battle SHOULD end in the disengagement of one side...  Currently blowing someone up is actually HELPING them.. by way of letting them return to that hex SOONER!? 

What kinda of screwy system are we using?!  I'm new to D2 but this seem so backarsewards it isn't funny!  I've seen peoples PP stockpiles and realized that I'd have to blow them up 50 times to make a dent in their PP.  Sure the current settings encourage PvP, but at the same time make it meaningless.  You can run missions twice as fast to flip hexes and earn about the same amount of PP (even with the PvP bonus).  When someone is willing to SD (killing his crew and distroying a hunk of his races economy) maybe its time to rethink the rules.

(Dib, I'm not insulting you or what you did, just dumbfounded by the rules...)

We;'ve tried making PvP death punitive and it makes the server way too serious.    This is a game, needs to be fun.
Who'd thunk that Star-castling was the root of all evil . . .


el-Karnak

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Re: Have to commend Dib
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2005, 11:15:03 am »
Quote
MILF

Stupid question time for the Frog.

What is MILF?

Is it the same thing as a MBA (Married But Available). *snicker*

Offline Braxton_RIP

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Re: Have to commend Dib
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2005, 02:13:24 pm »
Quote
MILF

Stupid question time for the Frog.

What is MILF?

Is it the same thing as a MBA (Married But Available). *snicker*

Wow...........

Even I know what MILF means.  Ask SkyFlyer, I bet HE even knows.  :rofl:
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Offline Capt_Bearslayer_XC

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Re: Have to commend Dib
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2005, 04:46:39 pm »
He-he.... watch 'American Pie'.....

"Hey, Stifler... you're Mom's hot!!" ;)
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Offline FPF-DieHard

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Re: Have to commend Dib
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2005, 05:03:28 pm »
Mother I'd Like (to) Fondle
Who'd thunk that Star-castling was the root of all evil . . .


Offline Mr.Bad151

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Re: Have to commend Dib
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2005, 08:36:14 pm »
Sound like ships are WAY too cheap and the disengagement rule is too harsh, if someone is willing to SD to get around the disengagement rule.  Most battle SHOULD end in the disengagement of one side...  Currently blowing someone up is actually HELPING them.. by way of letting them return to that hex SOONER!? 

What kinda of screwy system are we using?!  I'm new to D2 but this seem so backarsewards it isn't funny!  I've seen peoples PP stockpiles and realized that I'd have to blow them up 50 times to make a dent in their PP.  Sure the current settings encourage PvP, but at the same time make it meaningless.  You can run missions twice as fast to flip hexes and earn about the same amount of PP (even with the PvP bonus).  When someone is willing to SD (killing his crew and distroying a hunk of his races economy) maybe its time to rethink the rules.

(Dib, I'm not insulting you or what you did, just dumbfounded by the rules...)

We;'ve tried making PvP death punitive and it makes the server way too serious.    This is a game, needs to be fun.

Maybe you went too far.. You can't have PvP death be punitive AND have disengagement be punitive..

Personally, when I come out of a mission after having just spent 30 minutes blowing someone up and I look at their PP and realize I need to blow them up 50 more time to really make a difference.. the fun kinda drains away.  While the battles are fun.. the war suddenly looks rather depressing.  No matter how good I am or become, winning PvP battles are NEVER going to make a difference in the war.  They take too long and have far too little effect on anything.  I can win every battle but if I'm out numbered/outnuttered... I am going to lose the war. 

Take for example the Alliance in AtokII...  we could win every single PvP battle, but because we have fewer players/nutters,   we would lose the war.  Skill and strategy play a rather small part in who wins.  (sorry, I know skill/strategy should never be used in the same sentence as "alliance"  ;)  it was just an example)

Winning a PvP battle should have a significant effect on the tide of battle in a campaign.. otherwise you are just fighting glorified GSA battles...  Death in PvP battles SHOULD be punitive!  But its shouldn't be easy.  Getting the "kill" is a whole other skill. MOST battles should end in someone disengaging.

Right now the rule/settings favor the "nutters" so heavily it isn't funny.  Cheap ships, cheap repair, meaningless PvP death.. its a nutters paradise.  The side with the most nutters is going to win.. regardless of the balance of skill or strategy.  That actually makes it WORSE than GSA.. at least with a GSA battle I can say I won.  With the current settings I finish a PvP and realize I didn't win.. I lost.. I lost hexes..  The "win" I got in the PvP was actually self-defeating.  I allowed the enemy to return to the hex sooner..  I can't even say I've delayed his plans.. because if the battle takes longer than he wants.. he just Self destructs...

Quite literally I would have to kill some players 20+ times before I would even make a sizeable dent in their PP.  There are a few players I could blow up their CAs 20 times and they would still have enough PP to buy a DN.  This makes PvP battles totally meaningless in terms of the campaign.  About all a kill in a PvP battle does is give me bragging rights in the "kill" thread.  Heck, we could just all play GSA games and post our kills there and save the people working on the server/campaign a lot of work.

I'm not blaming the people who brought us the campaign... obviously the rules are pretty much what the community has suggested.  But is it REALLY what the community wants?  Is there no hope of finding a rule set/server settings somewhere between "too serious" and 'nutters paradise"?

"As the radius of my knowledge increases, so does the circumference of my ignorance"

Offline RFA-Wraith

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Re: Have to commend Dib
« Reply #15 on: August 02, 2005, 08:46:47 pm »
Why not increase the DV shift for the hex in PvP?

Instead of getting a 1 DV shift for winning a PvP, make it 2 or 5?

That will encourage people to fight to the death, and make an hours worth of battle worthwhile.

It will also make the defeated party think twice about returning to the same hex as they have just cost there side a huge
DV shift in that hex.




Offline KBFLordKrueg

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Re: Have to commend Dib
« Reply #16 on: August 02, 2005, 10:22:53 pm »
Sound like ships are WAY too cheap and the disengagement rule is too harsh, if someone is willing to SD to get around the disengagement rule.  Most battle SHOULD end in the disengagement of one side...  Currently blowing someone up is actually HELPING them.. by way of letting them return to that hex SOONER!? 

What kinda of screwy system are we using?!  I'm new to D2 but this seem so backarsewards it isn't funny!  I've seen peoples PP stockpiles and realized that I'd have to blow them up 50 times to make a dent in their PP.  Sure the current settings encourage PvP, but at the same time make it meaningless.  You can run missions twice as fast to flip hexes and earn about the same amount of PP (even with the PvP bonus).  When someone is willing to SD (killing his crew and distroying a hunk of his races economy) maybe its time to rethink the rules.

(Dib, I'm not insulting you or what you did, just dumbfounded by the rules...)

We;'ve tried making PvP death punitive and it makes the server way too serious.    This is a game, needs to be fun.

Maybe you went too far.. You can't have PvP death be punitive AND have disengagement be punitive..

Personally, when I come out of a mission after having just spent 30 minutes blowing someone up and I look at their PP and realize I need to blow them up 50 more time to really make a difference.. the fun kinda drains away.  While the battles are fun.. the war suddenly looks rather depressing.  No matter how good I am or become, winning PvP battles are NEVER going to make a difference in the war.  They take too long and have far too little effect on anything.  I can win every battle but if I'm out numbered/outnuttered... I am going to lose the war. 

Take for example the Alliance in AtokII...  we could win every single PvP battle, but because we have fewer players/nutters,   we would lose the war.  Skill and strategy play a rather small part in who wins.  (sorry, I know skill/strategy should never be used in the same sentence as "alliance"  ;)  it was just an example)

Winning a PvP battle should have a significant effect on the tide of battle in a campaign.. otherwise you are just fighting glorified GSA battles...  Death in PvP battles SHOULD be punitive!  But its shouldn't be easy.  Getting the "kill" is a whole other skill. MOST battles should end in someone disengaging.

Right now the rule/settings favor the "nutters" so heavily it isn't funny.  Cheap ships, cheap repair, meaningless PvP death.. its a nutters paradise.  The side with the most nutters is going to win.. regardless of the balance of skill or strategy.  That actually makes it WORSE than GSA.. at least with a GSA battle I can say I won.  With the current settings I finish a PvP and realize I didn't win.. I lost.. I lost hexes..  The "win" I got in the PvP was actually self-defeating.  I allowed the enemy to return to the hex sooner..  I can't even say I've delayed his plans.. because if the battle takes longer than he wants.. he just Self destructs...

Quite literally I would have to kill some players 20+ times before I would even make a sizeable dent in their PP.  There are a few players I could blow up their CAs 20 times and they would still have enough PP to buy a DN.  This makes PvP battles totally meaningless in terms of the campaign.  About all a kill in a PvP battle does is give me bragging rights in the "kill" thread.  Heck, we could just all play GSA games and post our kills there and save the people working on the server/campaign a lot of work.

I'm not blaming the people who brought us the campaign... obviously the rules are pretty much what the community has suggested.  But is it REALLY what the community wants?  Is there no hope of finding a rule set/server settings somewhere between "too serious" and 'nutters paradise"?



Well, we tried PvP kills being the only way of scoring, with no map VCs at all...
Players whined and complained about that, too... ::)
No matter what, you can't make all the players happy all the time.  ;D
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We are the Dead

Offline Dfly

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Re: Have to commend Dib
« Reply #17 on: August 02, 2005, 10:41:13 pm »
tue, no matter what the rule, not everyone will be happy.  I also am a PvPer, who ends up doing an awfull lot of hex flipping ( much more than I want to) due to the fact that PvP does not really help your side win.  Sure it helps push back a certain area for a very short time due to the enemy not flying there afterwards, but they can do many hex flipping right beside there or elsewhere.

1- I too would love to see a PvP cause a 5 pt shift.  You dont actually lose the whole hex, but you do lose a great part of it.  I know this second part I suggest will not go over well.

2-Fights, all PvP with no drops (God forbid someone would drop just because they got into a PvP and did not want to) are to the DEATH. or

3-All PvP kills means that that person must start a new account.  this one can suck very much for the guy who is not a nutter and has taken almost all his time building up enough to have a descent ship, only to lose it to a DN and start all over again.  this part I would not suggest if part #2 is in effect.

SO, in short, I would  love to see #1 in effect first.  #2 second. if not, then #3. on one of the next servers.  These are for suggestions and thoughts only, please add comments and input.

Offline Hexx

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Re: Have to commend Dib
« Reply #18 on: August 02, 2005, 10:43:56 pm »
Problem is for alot of the suggestions I *believe* you need a functional SQL server
or the source code.
Neither of which we have.
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Offline Mr.Bad151

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Re: Have to commend Dib
« Reply #19 on: August 03, 2005, 12:40:23 am »
I have a few suggestions.. I don't know if all of them are possible but most should be..

1. Make ships more expensive:  with current amount given for "vs. AI" missions, set DDs around 5k, CLs 10k, CAs 20k, BCHs 40k and DNs 80k.  Speciality ships IE maulers, drone cruisers, carriers; should be double this amount, so a D6D would run you 40k.  While this may seem high I have the lowest PP totals on the server at 60k (I have a new baby at home so don't get to play a lot) which would buy me 3 CAs..  There are some who could lose a DN then jump right back into a BCH.  160k for a CV sounds steep but it might start having people fly escort to such ships.  In SFB certain ships RARELY traveled without their escorts.. and only in the most dire of circumstances did they enter battle without them.. Ships like CVs, Maulers, Drone cruiser, even DNs to a large extent.  With ships this expensive getting blown up will set you back.. without taking you completely out of the game (although losing a CV could be crushing for a side.. which is the way is was during WWII)

2. Disengagement Rule:  If I remember correctly SFB had a disengagement rule that went something like.. You could not disengage until you were crippled or until you had scored internals on the enemy.  Something like that could be adopted.  No disengagement until you are crippled (less than 50% hull) or you had scored internals on the enemy.  If you disengage before then your ship is considered destroyed.. you have to SD your ship.  That includes running out of bounds for ANY reason.. accidental.. purpose.. or pushed out by a tractor beam!  The tractor beam part makes running the border even more dangerous.. for those who wish to run the border until they are crippled or manage to do internals then make a quick hop out of bounds.

There would be no time requirement for returning to a hex..because of the following

3.  Expensive repairs:  Repairs should be costly... repairing a ship costs.. and costs a LOT.  If repair costs were set to something like up to 50% of the purchase price.  So a CA 1 damage point away from distruction might cost 10k to repair.. while 10% damage might cost you 1-2k to repair.  This is why ships are allowed to disengage with no time restrictions.  A small ship might try flying around to tie up a larger ship, he can't disengage until he does internals OR until he is crippled.  Leaving the map crippled will cost him.. dearly.. not to mention how much he is risking just tieing up a larger ship.  Would you be willing to risk 5k possibly 10k (if destroyed) to tie up a CA for 30 minutes, with your measly CL? Probably not unless it was absolutely necessary.. which is the way it should be.  Remember speciality (cheese ships) are double that cost/risk!

4.  Huge PvP bonuses:  Destroying a players ships should get you a bonus of around 40% of the destroyed ships purchase price.  While even this might not cover your repair bill if you were very heavily damage.. you do get the satisfaction of knowing you just set one pilot back quite a bit.

While not all of these might be possible.. it might give someone an idea with something that is.  Or just a good idea in general.. hehe

Oh and by the way.. Deepstiking is the dumbest, most out of control thing I have seen.  It makes bases almost completely useless.  They aren't much more than convience stores as it is.. but with deepstrikes.. the only reason to place a base is to give the deepstrikers a target to distroy..    :lame:    Deepstrikes should be limited to 5 hexes from allied space.. or 10 hexes from a base/planet.    I find it hard to believe that a ship would be able to fly 20 hex into enemy territory, past starbases, battlestation, planets, and listening posts to attack a base then suddenly get an AI draw.. where in the heck did those guys come from and now it makes even HARDER to believe its possible...  Limiting the range of Deepstrikes would allow some use of bases, strategy in placing bases and still let people have fun doing deepstrikes.

It would also allow rules that add a bit more "flavor" to races..  Like Roms could disengage from battles if they were caught deepstriking (the cripple/internal rule would still apply tho)... ISC could have their deep strike range increased to 10 hexes from an allied hexed.  Historically the ISC ships were designed to travel long distances and at high warp.. which allowed them to "police" the galaxy.

Forcing people to fight to the death is either pointless, as it would be currently, people are self destructing now as it is.. or to big a deterent to PvP.  Besides.. most battles wouldn't be fought to the death anyway.. Having to start a new account would be an even bigger deterent to PvP.. you would see a LOT more drops in PvP.
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