Topic: ** Yet another set of missions  (Read 5635 times)

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Offline FPF-DieHard

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Who'd thunk that Star-castling was the root of all evil . . .


Offline FPF-SCM_TraceyG_XC

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Re: ** Yet another set of missions
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2005, 10:31:09 pm »
The good news is, Gorn AI is now showing up properly and all time warping issues have been resolved. The bad news is that in fixing this, we lost AI being removed from PvP. This latest batch of missions is an attempt to get AI ship removal working again for PvP.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2005, 06:57:29 am by FPF-TraceyG »
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Offline FPF-SCM_TraceyG_XC

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Re: ** Yet another set of missions
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2005, 11:40:01 pm »
AI removal for PvP is working again. Gorn AI is still working. Timewarping is fixed. Everything looks to be working now except we still need to check that the missions are all reporting correctly. Particularly we need 3v1, 3v2 and 3v3 checked to make sure the DV shifts correctly. If you have time please test the missions. If the Dv shifts correctly for these missions (and no other bugs appear) then this set will probably be the final set.
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Offline KAT Chuut-Ritt

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Re: ** Yet another set of missions
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2005, 12:45:43 am »
Nice Job Tracey  :thumbsup:

Now if I can just bribe you into flying Kitty with a Lyran DN, not like we are going to let Hexx anywhere near it anyhow.   ;)

Offline Mr.Bad151

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Re: ** Yet another set of missions
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2005, 01:17:11 am »
I actually got a Hydran ally flying a Gorn ship, WTG Tracey!  I flew a couple of "C" missions... for allies I got a Fed DN and GCS.  I flew the missions 2 times and both times I got a DN.  (I was flying a Gorn CC btw)  Before this last set of missions I always got Allies the same size class I was flying.  I'm not complaining.. just letting you know what turned up.. well.. I'd like to complain about getting a Fed DN.. but I might hurt the feelings of my Fed buddies.

I also few a couple of "B" missions, got a nice mix of different ships both for allies and targets.  I must say I found these missions to be a lot of fun!  I really like the "B" and "C" missions.  How about some D, E, and F missions?   ;D  Say maybe 2 v 1 and 3 v 2? ;)
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Re: ** Yet another set of missions
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2005, 06:53:35 am »
I'm not complaining.. just letting you know what turned up.. well.. I'd like to complain about getting a Fed DN.. but I might hurt the feelings of my Fed buddies.

:rofl:

Trust me.... us Fed pilots feel the same way....
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Offline Dizzy

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Re: ** Yet another set of missions
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2005, 12:46:38 pm »
Mission A:

1st mission My F-DVL vs K-E3C FF. Too easy.

2nd mission My F-DVL vs K-B10. Too hard.

Can you tighten it up a bit?

Offline FPF-DieHard

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Re: ** Yet another set of missions
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2005, 01:53:12 pm »
Mission A:

1st mission My F-DVL vs K-E3C FF. Too easy.

2nd mission My F-DVL vs K-B10. Too hard.

Can you tighten it up a bit?

No, you can't.   There is not method of control.

Maybe TG can alter it in the script. when she wakes up (6-7 PM EDT)

TG, does the difficulty level of the server affect AI draw?
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Offline SkyFlyer

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Re: ** Yet another set of missions
« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2005, 01:53:26 pm »
Yeah I pulled a DN in my CL rofl.
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Offline Dizzy

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Re: ** Yet another set of missions
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2005, 05:33:13 pm »
Patrol A

Pulled another FF with my F-DVL.

Patrol B

Pulled a FF and a K-B10 with my DVL.


Karnak made it so BB's NEVER showed in a mission. I think you should do the same.

And so far, nothing in between BB's and FF"s have appeared in mission vs my DVL.

Offline FPF-SCM_TraceyG_XC

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Re: ** Yet another set of missions
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2005, 05:34:00 pm »
Well, the problem is this. There are several diferent methods in the API for creating ships. One creates them by a specific ship class, this is the one used for creating player ships and contains the parameter "metaverseID". The API states this is the only method compatible with the dynaverse because it conatins the metaverseID which corresponds to the ship id in the database, thus connecting your ship in mission with your ship in the database. Whatever then happens to your ship in the mission is updated in the database at the end of the mission.

The other methods create ships by hull class and BPV. One you can set a specific hull class, the other you can set a range of hull classes. These methods I have been using for the most part of testing because they seen ideal. You can get the hull class of a player ship (say Heavy Cruiser) and then use the above latter method to create AI ships by setting the hull class range to say one above and one below the player ship hull class. This works very well at getting the right strength of enemy AI. There are two problem that we have discovered though using these methods. Principally, they use the client shiplist, not the server shiplist. It was for this reason that Gorn AI was not appearing because the shiplist uses doner ships for races to add in pfs to non-pf races. Secondly, the function in the API that returns the server date is broken, it always returns the same year. A mission script then (until that is fixed in the client code) has no direct way of knowing what year it is on the server and this we think is the reason why when using these methods that we get timewarping of ships hapenning.

We have been trying to get these functions to work anyway by making work arounds, since having control over what AI is being generated is very handy. We had made shiplists for each year that set ships to SPECIAL that were not yet available as a solution to the timewarping issue. We had adnjusted the hull class ranges and BPVs and variances numerous times to try and get the right ships to appear. However, the missing Gotn AI was the deal breaker. The only way to get that back in without changing the scripts was to remove pf's from the Federation list. The ED base assaults however generated Gorn AI just fine. So what was it that they did that these scripts did not?

Taking a look in the stock and ED mission source code, at first glance, there is no AI ship generation code whatsoever. How could this be? In fact, you can see in some of the stock scripts where AI generation code used to exist but was commented out. The only code that exists there is the player ship generation code. How do these scripts generate AI then? Well, I'm glad you asked. If the team that contains the player ship generation code is not a human team, it appears that the client code still tries to get data about the ship from the serverkit. The serverkit does not have a player ship for that slot and so an AI ship gets filled there instead. Ir would appear that this AI ship is being generated from the server side shiplist. The hull class and BPV of these ships are being entirely controlled from somewhere within the client code and we have no access to them.

As a last resort then, I have had to remove all the AI ship generation code from the missions, in order to use the same method that the stock missions and ED missions use to create AI ships. While this fixes the timewarping issue and the Gorn AI problem, it means we give up control over what AI ships are actually being made. We did not want to do this because it doesnt make AI ships very well, as we have seen, but I still have a few ideas that may help with this.

Now, using the above also presented another problem. Because the same function was now being used to generate both player and AI ships, we lost AI stripping. Previously because the functions were seperate I could simply just put in a conditional that says If this is a human team, use this function... else if this is not a PvP mission, create AI. I did find a way to get this working anyway though.

So, unfortunately, there way not be much we can now do about the strength of AI ships since we have basically given up control over how they are created. To fix the shop creation methods that give us that control requires access to the client source code in order to fix the OP scripting API. I also suspect it would be easy to fix if I had the source code.

Dont give up hope yet though, I still have another idea to try.
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Offline Dizzy

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Re: ** Yet another set of missions
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2005, 05:41:33 pm »
Would it work if you axed the F-PF's and specialed out all the ships in future years so there was no time warping?

Offline Dizzy

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Re: ** Yet another set of missions
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2005, 05:42:31 pm »
Oh, and how did Karnak get AI stripping and proper AI class type generation? Specialing out the list should fix his time warp problem.

Offline FPF-DieHard

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Re: ** Yet another set of missions
« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2005, 05:53:15 pm »
Oh, and how did Karnak get AI stripping and proper AI class type generation? Specialing out the list should fix his time warp problem.

That depends on where his Ships are generated Server or Client side. Karnak can answer that.
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Offline FPF-DieHard

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Re: ** Yet another set of missions
« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2005, 05:54:27 pm »
Would it work if you axed the F-PF's and specialed out all the ships in future years so there was no time warping?

yes, the idea would be to use a Priate Cartel for the Fed PFs and push the other donors together with the rest of the Gorn ships.

We still may do this.
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Offline Dizzy

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Re: ** Yet another set of missions
« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2005, 05:57:13 pm »
Then lose the Fed PF's. Put them in the Gorn list. If you want to fly a Fed PF, you sign in as Gorn and are stuck with the Gorn interface.

Traceys missions are 1 day away from a server start and still arnt sorted. If she cant get em working, we can still use the older NW missions, or we could use... EEK. OMG I said it!

Offline Dizzy

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Re: ** Yet another set of missions
« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2005, 05:58:04 pm »
Would it work if you axed the F-PF's and specialed out all the ships in future years so there was no time warping?

yes, the idea would be to use a Priate Cartel for the Fed PFs and push the other donors together with the rest of the Gorn ships.

We still may do this.

Just put the fed PF ships in the gorn list. Fly Gorn if u want to fly a Fed PF ship. Ur stuck with the gorn interface...

Offline FPF-DieHard

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Re: ** Yet another set of missions
« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2005, 06:01:44 pm »
Then lose the Fed PF's. Put them in the Gorn list. If you want to fly a Fed PF, you sign in as Gorn and are stuck with the Gorn interface.

Traceys missions are 1 day away from a server start and still arnt sorted. If she cant get em working, we can still use the older NW missions, or we could use... EEK. OMG I said it!

yes, if we can't get them sorted they will not be used.  I'm not using EEK because of the convoulted GF settings required to get them to work right with ED's base assaults.
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Offline Dizzy

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Re: ** Yet another set of missions
« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2005, 06:05:47 pm »
Well... what if I persuade Karnak to rewrite his Base assaults so they dont suckass?

Whats the problem with just using Karnak patrols? Do they show up on base hexes instead of base assault missions?

Offline Dizzy

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Re: ** Yet another set of missions
« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2005, 06:09:23 pm »
get on yahoo...

Offline FPF-SCM_TraceyG_XC

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Re: ** Yet another set of missions
« Reply #20 on: July 22, 2005, 06:12:15 pm »
Going back to the previous way of generating AI ships is not difficult. I have only commented the code out, not deleted it. Also, the missions seemed to be more stable when using the previous code as well. It means then that we would have to make extensove changes to the shiplist and donor ships, as well as replacing the shiplist each year to special out not yet available ships.

Ahhh, if only I had the client source code to fix the API...  ::)
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Offline Dizzy

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Re: ** Yet another set of missions
« Reply #21 on: July 22, 2005, 06:19:58 pm »
Going back to the previous way of generating AI ships is not difficult. I have only commented the code out, not deleted it. Also, the missions seemed to be more stable when using the previous code as well. It means then that we would have to make extensove changes to the shiplist and donor ships, as well as replacing the shiplist each year to special out not yet available ships.

Not really... The donated PF ships in the list need to be sent down a slot. And the formula in excel could be substituted each game year... er each 2 years, or 3 days. We could even have 15 or 30 lists predone and insert those in on server DB cleans. They are done about every 2-3 days anyway.

Offline Hexx

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Re: ** Yet another set of missions
« Reply #22 on: July 22, 2005, 06:36:49 pm »
STL draws on Rom fron over 3 missions patrol A
Early DN (forget what it's called)
K7RB
K7RB

With CC+
SKA
BHE
K7RB

Draws actually seem a little lite, but better than drawing BB's.
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Re: ** Yet another set of missions
« Reply #23 on: July 22, 2005, 06:40:08 pm »
Umm, why are people talking about me in this thread. I saw all this writing and, and, and . . .

I've been good, I promise!!  Ask my Kittie RM, he'll vouch for me!! ;D Really, I've been a very good froggie this week. Next week, maybe I'll be bad . . .

Quote from: Dizzy
Oh, and how did Karnak get AI stripping and proper AI class type generation? Specialing out the list should fix his time warp problem.
I don't recall EEK missions having time warp problems once I tightened up the variant percentage to 15%. But then, it has been  a year . . .


Quote from: Dizzy
Well... what if I persuade Karnak to rewrite his Base assaults so they dont suckass?

What wrong with EEK base/planet assaults? So, they are a little hard, have lotsa ships and are kinda heavy on the fleeting side...weenies!!! :P

Personally, I like the EEK Shipyard assault and defence missions. They are probably one of the best I've ever done. I've played that one over and over again and never tire of it.  I would put those in AOTK2 cuz I'm being a self-ish great greedy gut Froggie.

Quote from: DieHard
That depends on where his Ships are generated Server or Client side. Karnak can answer that.

I already told you a few days ago, you twit!!

Offline Dizzy

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Re: ** Yet another set of missions
« Reply #24 on: July 22, 2005, 06:40:33 pm »
Well, I got the Hydrans up to 27 ships in their yards...

But I had to give every hydran hex 2,000 economy, haha. I remember someone once telling me there was a server problem using values over 100. Does this problem still exist?

Offline Dizzy

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Re: ** Yet another set of missions
« Reply #25 on: July 22, 2005, 06:41:37 pm »


I already told you a few days ago, you twit!!

Well tell me!

Offline Hexx

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Re: ** Yet another set of missions
« Reply #26 on: July 22, 2005, 06:44:05 pm »
If the yards are running every 5 minutes why do you need more than 10-15 ships in them?
It's not like we have the playercounts anymore for bidding wars..
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Offline FPF-SCM_TraceyG_XC

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Re: ** Yet another set of missions
« Reply #27 on: July 22, 2005, 06:52:35 pm »
Ok, I think I've fixed the AI draw problem. Mew missions coming soon.
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Offline SkyFlyer

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Re: ** Yet another set of missions
« Reply #28 on: July 22, 2005, 06:55:19 pm »
Just a question....

Quote
Whatever then happens to your ship in the mission is updated in the database at the end of the mission.

Does that mean that in a mission, if you capture a ship, you could put it back into the DB... So like I capture a klink AI, or player, ship, at the end of the mission I would have it... and could send it back? Or keep it?
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Offline FPF-SCM_TraceyG_XC

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Re: ** Yet another set of missions
« Reply #29 on: July 22, 2005, 07:37:04 pm »
Just a question....

Quote
Whatever then happens to your ship in the mission is updated in the database at the end of the mission.

Does that mean that in a mission, if you capture a ship, you could put it back into the DB... So like I capture a klink AI, or player, ship, at the end of the mission I would have it... and could send it back? Or keep it?

Unfortunately, no.
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Offline FPF-SCM_TraceyG_XC

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Re: ** Yet another set of missions
« Reply #30 on: July 22, 2005, 07:38:33 pm »
The AI draws for missions are now working correctly. This was the last problem. If no new problems arise today, this set of missions will be the ones used for AOTK2.
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Offline SkyFlyer

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Re: ** Yet another set of missions
« Reply #31 on: July 22, 2005, 08:39:53 pm »
Just a question....

Quote
Whatever then happens to your ship in the mission is updated in the database at the end of the mission.

Does that mean that in a mission, if you capture a ship, you could put it back into the DB... So like I capture a klink AI, or player, ship, at the end of the mission I would have it... and could send it back? Or keep it?

Unfortunately, no.

Do you know how awesome that would be though? :)
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