Topic: Can I ask J'inn and the other RMs to consider this

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Altering the Disengagement rule so that line ships will only suffer 1/2 the penalties.

This would reward those who were not flying specialty ships. 

One of the main concernes as far as the disengagement rule has always been "hex-flipping" but line ships are not generally considered hex-flippers.

I think we should consider halving the time for them.

Any drone variant, commando variant, carrier (might need a little clarification for the Hydrans here as all their ships have ftrs), fast cruiser, scout, and escort would be excluded.

We might even consider the heavy units ruled by OOB to be excluded from this bonus as well.  I'm cool either way on that.

[GDA-S'Cipio]

I like it.  I'd like for command variants to be excluded as well  (meaning they keep the full disengagement penalty.)

But I suspect -- if they go for this -- they will go with only those ships who already have been given a suffix in the shiplist being the exceptions.  Less work that way.

-S'Cipio

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Not a bad idea Scippy, but I think it better to start with the basic concept, the command variants could be considered for exclusion for a later run if it proved to be a hit. 

[Kroma BaSyl]

I would agree to this type of change, if it was limited to "line" ships only. Any specialty, command, or OOB ship that is killed or disengages suffers the full penalty. The line ships only half.

However, it hardly seems necessary, and I still don't understand the fuss of a few pilots over being banned form the single hex for the current length of time, as the map is big and there are plenty of other hexes to hit. Heck it is a 3-way server and thus 2 whole fronts worth of hexs to attack. The only rational I see for it is to allow for the cheese hex-flipping tactics where avoidance of PvP can win the hex. It makes it pointless to bother defending a hex without a disengagement rule, unless you resort to similar PvP avoidance tactics.

[KAT J'inn]

Not a bad idea.   Best saved for the next server though.  DH has worked his butt off and I don't want to see him have to make a renaming change to the ship list at this point.

[Matsukasi]

The only rational I see for it is to allow for the cheese hex-flipping tactics where avoidance of PvP can win the hex. It makes it pointless to bother defending a hex without a disengagement rule, unless you resort to similar PvP avoidance tactics.

 
I'm tired of biting my tongue. I am tired of seeing this issue misrepresented as some attempt to return to glory the DF+ AI slaughter tactic. I don't even FLY drone ships. Hell, I haven't flown Kzinti even for at least 2 years. This rule pissed me off when I was a Lyran for cripes sake. Are you gonna tell me that I was trying to ESG my way to victory now? Gimme a friggin break.

My beef with this rule is the uncontested allowance of multiple goddamn capital ships to bully their way across the universe, especially given the NOTORIOUS connection issues that some pilots have. It makes it nigh impossible to counter effectively. It's complete horsesh*t to ban me from a hex for ANY amount of time if I'm left alone in a mission vesus 2, hell who am I kidding 3 capital ships when my wingman goes ' poof ' right at the start.

Make a rule forcing those damn capital ships to not fleet together and I'll shut up with UNGODLY glee about disengagement rules.

Until then, stop pigeonholing those of us who think this rule stinks on ice.

/rant


I feel better now

[Mog]

I tend to agree with Mat.

[FPF-DieHard]

My beef with this rule is the uncontested allowance of multiple goddamn capital ships to bully their way across the universe, especially given the NOTORIOUS connection issues that some pilots have. It makes it nigh impossible to counter effectively. It's complete horsesh*t to ban me from a hex for ANY amount of time if I'm left alone in a mission vesus 2, hell who am I kidding 3 capital ships when my wingman goes ' poof ' right at the start.

um, we did make a rules stating that capital ships can't fly together.   Was that removed?

[Matsukasi]

um, we did make a rules stating that capital ships can't fly together.   Was that removed?

I don't see it listed anywhere. Certainly not in the AOTK II rules sticky.

[FPF-Tobin Dax]

The last few servers have had the rule preventing carriers and DNs from fleeting, but that's all that I am aware of.

[GDA-Agave]

I agree with you Matt.  

All OOB limited capital ships should not be allowed to fly together.   I think that it was mentioned somewhere in the AOTK2 rules thread.   It should definitely be added.

[Kroma BaSyl]

I agree with you Matt.   

All OOB limited capital ships should not be allowed to fly together.   I think that it was mentioned somewhere in the AOTK2 rules thread.   It should definitely be added.

Agreed, if this rule isn't in it was an oversight. All OOB ships should be banned from flying together.

And Mat whether or not the push to scrape the Disengagement rule was an attempt to return to the glory days of DF+ AI slaughter tactic (which BTW several people have in the past explicitly stated that was their intent with oppossing it, not you per se, but others), without the disengagment rule that is exactly what we would get.

[KAT J'inn]

My beef with this rule is the uncontested allowance of multiple goddamn capital ships to bully their way across the universe, especially given the NOTORIOUS connection issues that some pilots have. It makes it nigh impossible to counter effectively. It's complete horsesh*t to ban me from a hex for ANY amount of time if I'm left alone in a mission vesus 2, hell who am I kidding 3 capital ships when my wingman goes ' poof ' right at the start.

um, we did make a rules stating that capital ships can't fly together.   Was that removed?

WHOOPS!!!   J'inn made a boo boo.   Will fix.

[KAT J'inn]

DH  I'll leave it up to you about Chuut idea.   The idea is good, but the time to change the shiplist to mark the ships is a concern.


As for the Disengaement Rule . . ..  if the problem was the droners . . . . and I think it was . . .  wouldn't it be a little more direct to simply limit drone boats and or remove them completely.    They are supposed to be rare. And there is no doubt they were being overused by all.

[CaptJosh]

  Who'd have thunk it? A lawyer using the KISS principle.

[FPF-DieHard]

DH  I'll leave it up to you about Chuut idea.   The idea is good, but the time to change the shiplist to mark the ships is a concern.


As for the Disengaement Rule . . ..  if the problem was the droners . . . . and I think it was . . .  wouldn't it be a little more direct to simply limit drone boats and or remove them completely.    They are supposed to be rare. And there is no doubt they were being overused by all.

What exactley would I need to do, mark all line ships with a small "v" for vanilla?  F-vCAR+ for example?  Thats doable as long as I have carte blanch over what is vannilla.  

I still think this isn't right if the ISC is in the equation as their "line" ships can only be beaten with command and specialty ships (unless pilot skill is greatly mismatched).   Maybe we should hold this off until "Federation & Empire" where the tradional allies are more balanced.

Leave the drone ships in.   If for no other reason, we have a lot of new/returning players who may need the training wheels.

[Kroma BaSyl]

It is all hex-flipping ships, and the desire to make PvP mean something. People act like hex-flipping has been totally nerfed by the disengagement rule when all that has happened is that some balance has been restored to PvP ships. Hex-flipping still has it's uses and last I checked the map had more than one hex on it.

[Braxton_RIP]

DH  I'll leave it up to you about Chuut idea.   The idea is good, but the time to change the shiplist to mark the ships is a concern.


As for the Disengaement Rule . . ..  if the problem was the droners . . . . and I think it was . . .  wouldn't it be a little more direct to simply limit drone boats and or remove them completely.    They are supposed to be rare. And there is no doubt they were being overused by all.

What exactley would I need to do, mark all line ships with a small "v" for vanilla?  F-vCAR+ for example?  Thats doable as long as I have carte blanch over what is vannilla.  

I still think this isn't right if the ISC is in the equation as their "line" ships can only be beaten with command and specialty ships (unless pilot skill is greatly mismatched).   Maybe we should hold this off until "Federation & Empire" where the tradional allies are more balanced.

Leave the drone ships in.   If for no other reason, we have a lot of new/returning players who may need the training wheels.

Isn't that the point of the ISC though? Superior technological advancement to the other races?

I don't mind the alteration, btw.

Also wanted to say, don't you think if your a captain and you loose a Capital ship, that your race's government is going to laugh at you when you ask to be deployed again with the same thing in the same place?

[Mog]

Depending on who you're fighting I'd say it's more amazing you are still alive to command another ship.

[FPF-DieHard]

Also wanted to say, don't you think if your a captain and you loose a Capital ship, that your race's government is going to laugh at you when you ask to be deployed again with the same thing in the same place?