Topic: OT ~ What's bigger, a Nuke Bomb or an Anti-matter Bomb?

[Dizzy]

Well the largest yield fusion bombs ever tested were 2oo or so megatons and there were 500 megaton designs... my guess would be half a kilogram of antimatter.

it could be stored in small amounts using simple static charges in a matrix where the sides of a pit were equal in charge to the amount of antimatter. a nano technology array of such pits on an IC like platform where the number of pits are huge and where the polarity of the walls of the pit could be switched might safely do it without large magnetic bottles.

Ok, so half a kilogram of antimatter would yield a 200-500 megaton explosion? (and if we are talking 2000 times the power of the hiroshima bomb, that would be big enough to wipe out the state of New York)? Tracey mentioned different kinds of non/kinetic explosions. How do we insure we get a destructive release of energy?

Now, static charges to hold antimatter in place... Sounds pure science fiction. But what do I know? If possible tho, wouldnt the forces exerted by the static field be matter and screw things up? I thought you had to freeze antimatter in a magnatized vacuum?

And for Tracey since you seem to know something about gravity... how else do you keep those G racks looking so perky? What is the speed of gravity? Speed of light, less than that or instantaneous? And what effect would Capn Josh's 'Gravity Wells' have on an antimatter explosion if gravity were turned on and off?

Also

[Stormbringer]

Well the largest yield fusion bombs ever tested were 2oo or so megatons and there were 500 megaton designs... my guess would be half a kilogram of antimatter.

it could be stored in small amounts using simple static charges in a matrix where the sides of a pit were equal in charge to the amount of antimatter. a nano technology array of such pits on an IC like platform where the number of pits are huge and where the polarity of the walls of the pit could be switched might safely do it without large magnetic bottles.

Ok, so half a kilogram of antimatter would yield a 200-500 megaton explosion? (and if we are talking 2000 times the power of the hiroshima bomb, that would be big enough to wipe out the state of New York)? Tracey mentioned different kinds of non/kinetic explosions. How do we insure we get a destructive release of energy?

Now, static charges to hold antimatter in place... Sounds pure science fiction. But what do I know? If possible tho, wouldnt the forces exerted by the static field be matter and screw things up? I thought you had to freeze antimatter in a magnatized vacuum?

And for Tracey since you seem to know something about gravity... how else do you keep those G racks looking so perky? What is the speed of gravity? Speed of light, less than that or instantaneous? And what effect would Capn Josh's 'Gravity Wells' have on an antimatter explosion if gravity were turned on and off?

Also

well what she said was true however in the same way the nuclear explosion yields particles that cause a devastating explosion an antimatter explosion would to. after all a tiny amount of matter converting to energy caused the whole nuclear explosion force.

the mechanism in an atimatter explosion is the same conversion process writ large. it is not a whole different physical principle. both explosions use the same principle. now it is true in a fusion explosion the principle is a little differnt and has more to do with proton radius energy; but essentially the fission bomb and antimatter bomb work on the same principle.

[Dizzy]

What are Hexx's 15 different types? Atomic, Nuclear, Fission, Fusion, Hydrogen, what else?

[Hexx]

Well for the energy I dunno

For the area of effect- I belive the 100MT (biggest ever produced) was estimatd to
be able to wipe out everything in a 50km radius, cause dmg up to 100km radius and 3rd degree burns to 150kms
( all kms are very @ )

You could hold it in a magnetic field- but it would have to be in a vacuum (IIRC)

And gravity would have no more or less effect on an Antimatter explosion than on any other tyoe of energy release.

[Dizzy]

And gravity would have no more or less effect on an Antimatter explosion than on any other tyoe of energy release.

More info please...

If we are releasing more energy in an antimatter/matter explosion, what speed would space and time distort? Or am I mistaking that the energy released weighs the same amount as the mass it started with? I thought an explosion of that m,agnitude would release more mass and thus exert its own gravity influence...

[Stormbringer]

No. force exchange particles are shared. for example there is no anti-photon. an antiproton has a charge of -1 unit. so it is repelled from negative charges. if the atoms around the antiproton are also negatively charged the antiproton will never get near enough to contact the ordinary wall and anihilate. when the antiprotons is needed the charge in the wall can be reversed. or in three dimensions a magnetic field can be turned on simultaneously to directthe antiproton out of the matrix without contacting the walls.

[FPF-SCM_TraceyG_XC]

But didnt Wesley say in TNG that Matter, Energy, Space and Time are all the same thing?? Or is that something L. Ron Hubbard said 

[FPF-SCM_TraceyG_XC]

No. force exchange particles are shared. for example there is no anti-photon. an antiproton has a charge of -1 unit. so it is repelled from negative charges. if the atoms around the antiproton are also negatively charged the antiproton will never get near enough to contact the ordinary wall and anihilate. when the antiprotons is needed the charge in the wall can be reversed. or in three dimensions a magnetic field can be turned on simultaneously to directthe antiproton out of the matrix without contacting the walls.

Unless the strong electrodynamic forces are overcome by kinetic energy and the subatomic particles pushed together close enough so that the weak nuclear forces or "hooks" can grab on to them. Consider the stellar core of a neutron star that has a mass 1.44 times Chandrassaker's limit.

[Stormbringer]

The idea of confining antimater with a scheme similar in principle to what i discussed  has been done in the lab. and on a much larger scale posititve particles in the form of hydrogen nuclei have been suspended in a matrix of doped ceramic for use in a prototype hydrogen car. the containment scheme worked with enough hydrogen so trapped to drive the car nearly 300 miles. That is a lot of protons. asntiprotons would just require the opposite polarity of the scheme for the hydrogen car already produced as a prototype.

[Hexx]

No. force exchange particles are shared. for example there is no anti-photon. an antiproton has a charge of -1 unit. so it is repelled from negative charges. if the atoms around the antiproton are also negatively charged the antiproton will never get near enough to contact the ordinary wall and anihilate. when the antiprotons is needed the charge in the wall can be reversed. or in three dimensions a magnetic field can be turned on simultaneously to directthe antiproton out of the matrix without contacting the walls.

Yeah That's what I was going to say..

I don't think any *measurable* effect on gravity (or the infamous space/teime continuim) would result from even a very large Antimatter explosion
Light(energy) does have (I think?) some gravitational influence.. but hell if I can do the math to figure out what you want

So -aside from making me feel stupid- where exactly did this line of questions come from?  

[Stormbringer]

No. force exchange particles are shared. for example there is no anti-photon. an antiproton has a charge of -1 unit. so it is repelled from negative charges. if the atoms around the antiproton are also negatively charged the antiproton will never get near enough to contact the ordinary wall and anihilate. when the antiprotons is needed the charge in the wall can be reversed. or in three dimensions a magnetic field can be turned on simultaneously to directthe antiproton out of the matrix without contacting the walls.

Unless the strong electrodynamic forces are overcome by kinetic energy and the subatomic particles pushed together close enough so that the weak nuclear forces or "hooks" can grab on to them. Consider the stellar core of a neutron star that has a mass 1.44 times Chandrassaker's limit.

true but you are talking about enough kinetic energy to produce fusion. it is not the sort of energy that would happen by accident in side what is essentially an IC chip..

[Dizzy]

No. force exchange particles are shared. for example there is no anti-photon. an antiproton has a charge of -1 unit. so it is repelled from negative charges. if the atoms around the antiproton are also negatively charged the antiproton will never get near enough to contact the ordinary wall and anihilate. when the antiprotons is needed the charge in the wall can be reversed. or in three dimensions a magnetic field can be turned on simultaneously to directthe antiproton out of the matrix without contacting the walls.

Ok, lets get this straight...

1.) I'm getting you on how to hold and store a half kilogram of antimatter. Recap for me on how you would do it, again, please, and what kind of size device we are talking about. What are the power requirements and how do we get the antimatter in there in the first place?

2.) Also, if we can store a half kilogram of antimatter (equal to the most expolosive bomb made by man) what is the theoretical limit on how much antimatter you can store? In Fasa Trek they had various yields of photon torp warheads. The 1st one blew up a parking lot. In SFB, there are 3x types, er 2. Why cant we generate enough to wipe out say... Planet Earth?

3.) I'm fuzzy on this... the gravitational weight or mass of a half kilogram of antimatter... is a half kilogram of gravity influence? What about when you have your antimatter explosion... Do you have an increase in the gravity influence, does the blast 'weigh' more that a half kilogram?

[Stormbringer]

No. force exchange particles are shared. for example there is no anti-photon. an antiproton has a charge of -1 unit. so it is repelled from negative charges. if the atoms around the antiproton are also negatively charged the antiproton will never get near enough to contact the ordinary wall and anihilate. when the antiprotons is needed the charge in the wall can be reversed. or in three dimensions a magnetic field can be turned on simultaneously to directthe antiproton out of the matrix without contacting the walls.

Yeah That's what I was going to say..

I don't think any *measurable* effect on gravity (or the infamous space/teime continuim) would result from even a very large Antimatter explosion
Light(energy) does have (I think?) some gravitational influence.. but hell if I can do the math to figure out what you want

So -aside from making me feel stupid- where exactly did this line of questions come from?  

LOL. it does not it is a separate sub topic. it has nothing to do with your discussion.

[Dizzy]

 

[Stormbringer]

No. force exchange particles are shared. for example there is no anti-photon. an antiproton has a charge of -1 unit. so it is repelled from negative charges. if the atoms around the antiproton are also negatively charged the antiproton will never get near enough to contact the ordinary wall and anihilate. when the antiprotons is needed the charge in the wall can be reversed. or in three dimensions a magnetic field can be turned on simultaneously to directthe antiproton out of the matrix without contacting the walls.

Ok, lets get this straight...

1.) I'm getting you on how to hold and store a half kilogram of antimatter. Recap for me on how you would do it, again, please, and what kind of size device we are talking about. What are the power requirements and how do we get the antimatter in there in the first place?

2.) Also, if we can store a half kilogram of antimatter (equal to the most expolosive bomb made by man) what is the theoretical limit on how much antimatter you can store? In Fasa Trek they had various yields of photon torp warheads. The 1st one blew up a parking lot. In SFB, there are 3x types, er 2. Why cant we generate enough to wipe out say... Planet Earth?

3.) I'm fuzzy on this... the gravitational weight or mass of a half kilogram of antimatter... is a half kilogram of gravity influence? What about when you have your antimatter explosion... Do you have an increase in the gravity influence, does the blast 'weigh' more that a half kilogram?

well bear in mind the matrix would have to be very precisely machined in the way that IC chips are by lithography or vapor deposition with masks and all that. ifthat is doable the units could be made modular so that many such "IC chips" could be harnessed together in stacks or piles. the limit would be to do with prtability if talking about a weapon  but could be huge if storage for spaceship fuel.

Currently we cannot produce even half an ounce of antimatter a year. but 22 KG of antimatter are floating in space between here and jupiter at any given second. and it is constantly replenished by solar radiation and cosmic radiation. some day we may have either lartge production plants or find away to trick ordinary matter into becoming antimatter. the difference is in quark distribution and quark species in the particles. (IIRC) rearrange those in matter and you might get antimatter.

as to gravity of an explosion remember all that energy is the equivelent of half a KG of mass. ittakes huge amounts of energy to make a small amount of matter. gravity would be unimpressed by even such a gargantuan explosion because cosmically such an explosion is miniscule.

[Dizzy]

So -aside from making me feel stupid- where exactly did this line of questions come from?  

I'm going somewhere with this, and it isnt blowing up earth. But there was some discussion among certain manhattan scientists as to wether or not the atomic chain reaction would ever stop, thus blowing up the planet... On a side note, I think it would seem to be a much more precise way of knowing exactly how big an antimatter explosion would be than a nuke. But thats why we have super computers. Hrmmm... another interesting topic... would quantum computers do for antimatter explosion modeling what supercomputers did for nuke explosion modeling?

[Hexx]

-Keep in mind that Star Trek (and most sci fi in general) simply uses antimatter as the
"powerful source of energy"
a kiloton is 4.2 terajoules or 4.2 TJ.

 gram = 0.001 kg. Sppeed of Light 300,000,000 meter/s.  
E=mc2
E= 0.001 x 300000000 x 300000000 kgm2/s2 = 90,000,000,000,000 J = 90 TJ.

90 TJ = 21.4 kiloton (nuke)

And that's 1g, I think it would be doubled (as you'd need a second gram of matter)
so 1g of antimatter + 1g matter = @ 180TJ = @ 43 Kiloton nuke
Assuming this is a straight line and not exponential
500g (1/2 kg) = @ 21500Kt= @  22Mt

Is that right?
The amount seems smaller than I remember

Also wouldn't the anti-protons start to repel each other at a certain point?

[Dizzy]

limit would be to do with prtability if talking about a weapon  but could be huge if storage for spaceship fuel.

Yeah, something like that... a small release of controlled antimatter would propel a spacecraft to unreal velocities if you could keep it from blowing up the ship...

Currently we cannot produce even half an ounce of antimatter a year. but 22 KG of antimatter are floating in space between here and jupiter at any given second. and it is constantly replenished by solar radiation and cosmic radiation. some day we may have either lartge production plants or find away to trick ordinary matter into becoming antimatter. the difference is in quark distribution and quark species in the particles. (IIRC) rearrange those in matter and you might get antimatter.

So is that how we produced a half ounce of antimatter, using solar and cosmic artificial machines in labs? And why dont we see antimatter explosions in space if this stuff is lurking around out there?

as to gravity of an explosion remember all that energy is the equivelent of half a KG of mass. ittakes huge amounts of energy to make a small amount of matter. gravity would be unimpressed by even such a gargantuan explosion because cosmically such an explosion is miniscule.

So we arnt gonna see any time and space fabric bending here, huh?

[Dizzy]

-Keep in mind that Star Trek (and most sci fi in general) simply uses antimatter as the
"powerful source of energy"
a kiloton is 4.2 terajoules or 4.2 TJ.

 gram = 0.001 kg. Sppeed of Light 300,000,000 meter/s.  
E=mc2
E= 0.001 x 300000000 x 300000000 kgm2/s2 = 90,000,000,000,000 J = 90 TJ.

90 TJ = 21.4 kiloton (nuke)

And that's 1g, I think it would be doubled (as you'd need a second gram of matter)
so 1g of antimatter + 1g matter = @ 180TJ = @ 43 Kiloton nuke
Assuming this is a straight line and not exponential
500g (1/2 kg) = @ 21500Kt= @  22Mt

Is that right?
The amount seems smaller than I remember

Also wouldn't the anti-protons start to repel each other at a certain point?

Awesone stuff, Hexx. Good concrete numbers. Anyone confirm this stuff? You do pretty good making up for being short, hexx. Almost.

[Hexx]

The numbers should be good (I stole them) them math... well that might be screwed up royally.
(As I said-it seems small)

Anyways the best way to compare would be to find someone who know how much fissionable material actually is
icorporated into a nuclear weapon.

The one dropped on.. Nagasaki (I think) had about about 6ish (think it was a little less) KG of plutonium

So the same size-bomb with antimatter (call it 3kg of antimatter and 3 kg of matter)
would be equivalant (roughly) of 130MT.

EDIT: And of course I'm not actually sure it's (currently) possible to big a container big enough to hold
3kg of antimatter.